Define a drone
12-27-2015, 06:24 PM
#126
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OK, everybody it looks like it's time to vent.
I have made a life and living working in aerospace, and feel very fortunate to have been able to go the places I've been and to do the things I've done as a result of this career choice. I am still working in this field and hope to be able to retire only after it's been forced upon me.
A large part of what led me down this path in my life, was the chance to participate in model aviation. This hobby taught me paticence, persistance, mechanical skills, and more than that, was the beginning of my education in reading and following plans, drawings and instructions in order to successfully construct, finish, rig and fly all manner of model aircraft.
Now, on to the reason for this rant.
As a result of the irresponsible and idiotic use of the multi rotor miniature aircraft that have become so prevalent. Those of us that have participated in this hobby/sport for many generations and decades, are staring down the possibility of being forced to register with the Federal Aviation Administration and comply with rules that are far too restrictive and unreasonable.
You see, there is already a set of rules that us responsible modelers have followed for a very long time. These rules can be found at the Academy of Model Aeronautics web site at https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.PDF.
If you take the time to read these rules, you will find that those of us that are members of the AMA are required to conduct ourselves in a safe and conscientious fashion. That we are a social community that are enthusiastic about our hobby and helping others that share similar passions. You will find that those of us that are AMA members only fly our models at dedicated fields that were spceifically set up for our hobby/sport. For the most part, the only time we might fly away from a dedicated field, is to do a demonstration for an airshow or for educational purposes at local community schools. Always with safety as a prime consideration.
Contrast this with the new era of the digital "look at what I'm doing on facebook" crowd, coupled with the easy availibility of no the skills required to operate or construct multi-rotor flying machines.
The one thing I have heard from this group more than anything?....They want and to go and fly their camera carrying multi-rotor craft someplace other than a dedicated field for the purpose of taking movies or pictures". Now in some instances this is not a problem and their goals pose no danger to persons or property. Then there's the other group.
These are the folks that show no care or consideration for the safety or privacy of others, and these are the people causing the problems.
Let's get a couple things cleared up. Not all miniature flying machines are drones, but all drones are miniature
flying machines. You see, a "drone" has the ability to operate in an autonomous fashion. A mode that needs no input from it's operator and can also be flown beyond the VISUAL RANGE of the operator. This is done with onboard computers and GPS technology
Those of us that responsibly participate at dedicated fields for model aircraft will not operate a drone in this manner to a point that it is beyond visual range of the operator. Also, there is the relatively new technology of miniature video transmission and reception that allow for what is known as "First Person Viewing". This is also a very popular thing for "drone operators" to play with as they recklessly launch their multi-rotors into the sky.
For us to operate such a "drone" at a dedicated model aircraft field requires that the operator have an "observer" with him at all times during operation of the "drone". The observer is there to assist the operator with calling out any possible hazards and to possibly take over control of the craft using his direct line of sight perspective to prevent any danger to persons or property.
I have hopes that our community based organization, the Academy of Model Aeronautics can find some way to successfully persuade the FAA to make the new registration requirement and the severely restrictive rules that go along with it apply only to those individuals,flying multi-rotor or even more conventional fixed wing or rotorcraft actual "drones" at locations other than those set aside for the dedicated use of model aircraft. And the rest of us that have been enjoying this hobby/sport for generations and decades alone.
Don't just assume we are all the same.
I have a few select names I use to refer to the folks that are causing us these problems. The terms, "paste eater", "bed wetters", "bottom feeders", "nun punchers", "puppy kickers" , "seat sniffers" and "window lickers" all come to mind. But I have done my best to refrain from throwing these around in my rant.
I have made a life and living working in aerospace, and feel very fortunate to have been able to go the places I've been and to do the things I've done as a result of this career choice. I am still working in this field and hope to be able to retire only after it's been forced upon me.
A large part of what led me down this path in my life, was the chance to participate in model aviation. This hobby taught me paticence, persistance, mechanical skills, and more than that, was the beginning of my education in reading and following plans, drawings and instructions in order to successfully construct, finish, rig and fly all manner of model aircraft.
Now, on to the reason for this rant.
As a result of the irresponsible and idiotic use of the multi rotor miniature aircraft that have become so prevalent. Those of us that have participated in this hobby/sport for many generations and decades, are staring down the possibility of being forced to register with the Federal Aviation Administration and comply with rules that are far too restrictive and unreasonable.
You see, there is already a set of rules that us responsible modelers have followed for a very long time. These rules can be found at the Academy of Model Aeronautics web site at https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.PDF.
If you take the time to read these rules, you will find that those of us that are members of the AMA are required to conduct ourselves in a safe and conscientious fashion. That we are a social community that are enthusiastic about our hobby and helping others that share similar passions. You will find that those of us that are AMA members only fly our models at dedicated fields that were spceifically set up for our hobby/sport. For the most part, the only time we might fly away from a dedicated field, is to do a demonstration for an airshow or for educational purposes at local community schools. Always with safety as a prime consideration.
Contrast this with the new era of the digital "look at what I'm doing on facebook" crowd, coupled with the easy availibility of no the skills required to operate or construct multi-rotor flying machines.
The one thing I have heard from this group more than anything?....They want and to go and fly their camera carrying multi-rotor craft someplace other than a dedicated field for the purpose of taking movies or pictures". Now in some instances this is not a problem and their goals pose no danger to persons or property. Then there's the other group.
These are the folks that show no care or consideration for the safety or privacy of others, and these are the people causing the problems.
Let's get a couple things cleared up. Not all miniature flying machines are drones, but all drones are miniature
flying machines. You see, a "drone" has the ability to operate in an autonomous fashion. A mode that needs no input from it's operator and can also be flown beyond the VISUAL RANGE of the operator. This is done with onboard computers and GPS technology
Those of us that responsibly participate at dedicated fields for model aircraft will not operate a drone in this manner to a point that it is beyond visual range of the operator. Also, there is the relatively new technology of miniature video transmission and reception that allow for what is known as "First Person Viewing". This is also a very popular thing for "drone operators" to play with as they recklessly launch their multi-rotors into the sky.
For us to operate such a "drone" at a dedicated model aircraft field requires that the operator have an "observer" with him at all times during operation of the "drone". The observer is there to assist the operator with calling out any possible hazards and to possibly take over control of the craft using his direct line of sight perspective to prevent any danger to persons or property.
I have hopes that our community based organization, the Academy of Model Aeronautics can find some way to successfully persuade the FAA to make the new registration requirement and the severely restrictive rules that go along with it apply only to those individuals,flying multi-rotor or even more conventional fixed wing or rotorcraft actual "drones" at locations other than those set aside for the dedicated use of model aircraft. And the rest of us that have been enjoying this hobby/sport for generations and decades alone.
Don't just assume we are all the same.
I have a few select names I use to refer to the folks that are causing us these problems. The terms, "paste eater", "bed wetters", "bottom feeders", "nun punchers", "puppy kickers" , "seat sniffers" and "window lickers" all come to mind. But I have done my best to refrain from throwing these around in my rant.
12-27-2015, 06:33 PM
#127
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I watched both videos and admit outside the crash I could not do what they did with them, they flew them what looked like a designated area not to high, that most of us can live with. Its when anything is flown to high, and when they are being flown over people that gives me pause. Using them to spy on folks and flying them out of line of sight is the problems we are having. I think most of us want is anything flown, to be flown in a manner that is NOT giving us negative feedback,
I think we agree that the problem is not multi rotor pilots who fly safely like this. It is the uneducated who buy cheap plastic toys and fly them in places they are not supposed to. This impacts us all negatively.
I wonder how many times this scenario has occurred in the past few days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4refzhmxks
Last edited by Rob2160; 12-28-2015 at 02:34 AM.
12-27-2015, 08:08 PM
#128
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Tommy gun yes you are right brother I agree with you! Those names are freaking funny!! And that last video that was posted yes this is what we are dealing with folks complete freaking morons. Please you stupid puppy kicker lol don't buy another one just quit. That probably was that idiots Christmas grift how high does it go? That question gets my blood boiling sorry I try to calm down. Heck guys maybe they should have a license when you buy one like make sure you have a little sense and not a a total freaking moron.
12-27-2015, 09:36 PM
#129
R/C Airplane Registration Process
I have read many forum letters here about this registration process . Maybe somebody has already given the answer ,but I have not seen it. Just different interpretations and Opinions .I heard since I fly RC AIRCRAFT ( Model airplanes) and that mine usually weigh at least 5 pounds, that I now have to resister with the FAA .
So I go to the FAA website and only see a link to register a Drone .Since I do NOT own Any Drones, Multi-rotor anything ,FPV ,etc. I'm trying to find the place the FAA wants me to register .
I will NOT click a link to register a Drone ,since I do own one and never will . Anybody know where the R/C Airplane registration link is ? Not to act naive or dumb ,but if I'm told to use the Drone form ,Does that now legally mean the FAA is going to say that you accepted and acknowledged you own a Drone even when you don't ?
I also see a place to down load a form to send in . Do they have a R/C Airplane form to use ?
I will NOT click a link to register a Drone ,since I do own one and never will . Anybody know where the R/C Airplane registration link is ? Not to act naive or dumb ,but if I'm told to use the Drone form ,Does that now legally mean the FAA is going to say that you accepted and acknowledged you own a Drone even when you don't ?
I also see a place to down load a form to send in . Do they have a R/C Airplane form to use ?
12-27-2015, 10:36 PM
#130
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I totally get what you are saying, these guys at the level they're at are serious hobbyists and there is no doubt they bring a lot to the hobby and certainly are aware of the safety concerns, sadly, they are not the ones spoiling it for not only the RC community as a whole and MR guys in particular. I certainly don't want to see them banned either but I certainly want to see stronger action for those that are either unaware and punishment for those that don't care.
12-27-2015, 11:18 PM
#131
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I have read many forum letters here about this registration process . Maybe somebody has already given the answer ,but I have not seen it. Just different interpretations and Opinions .I heard since I fly RC AIRCRAFT ( Model airplanes) and that mine usually weigh at least 5 pounds, that I now have to resister with the FAA .
So I go to the FAA website and only see a link to register a Drone .Since I do NOT own Any Drones, Multi-rotor anything ,FPV ,etc. I'm trying to find the place the FAA wants me to register .
I will NOT click a link to register a Drone ,since I do own one and never will . Anybody know where the R/C Airplane registration link is ? Not to act naive or dumb ,but if I'm told to use the Drone form ,Does that now legally mean the FAA is going to say that you accepted and acknowledged you own a Drone even when you don't ?
I also see a place to down load a form to send in . Do they have a R/C Airplane form to use ?
I will NOT click a link to register a Drone ,since I do own one and never will . Anybody know where the R/C Airplane registration link is ? Not to act naive or dumb ,but if I'm told to use the Drone form ,Does that now legally mean the FAA is going to say that you accepted and acknowledged you own a Drone even when you don't ?
I also see a place to down load a form to send in . Do they have a R/C Airplane form to use ?
12-27-2015, 11:30 PM
#132
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There are a lot of people quick on the draw about "banning" multirotors when honestly they can't see the difference between them and "drones". I've brought this up to several of them and they are stubborn, refusing to note the difference. Of course there is one, but they are just set on banning something as if that will change anything. I absolutely want to see people held accountable for their actions, even more so now that there is more definition around the rules. I am glad to see however that the FAA will take a measured, case by case approach. Some 15 year old letting a drone get away from him is a far cry from some dope flying a Phantom over a stadium of people for some cool shots. For the egregious acts, I hope the hammer gets dropped on them.
12-28-2015, 02:32 AM
#133
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I have read many forum letters here about this registration process . Maybe somebody has already given the answer ,but I have not seen it. Just different interpretations and Opinions .I heard since I fly RC AIRCRAFT ( Model airplanes) and that mine usually weigh at least 5 pounds, that I now have to resister with the FAA .
So I go to the FAA website and only see a link to register a Drone .Since I do NOT own Any Drones, Multi-rotor anything ,FPV ,etc. I'm trying to find the place the FAA wants me to register .
I will NOT click a link to register a Drone ,since I do own one and never will . Anybody know where the R/C Airplane registration link is ? Not to act naive or dumb ,but if I'm told to use the Drone form ,Does that now legally mean the FAA is going to say that you accepted and acknowledged you own a Drone even when you don't ?
I also see a place to down load a form to send in . Do they have a R/C Airplane form to use ?
I will NOT click a link to register a Drone ,since I do own one and never will . Anybody know where the R/C Airplane registration link is ? Not to act naive or dumb ,but if I'm told to use the Drone form ,Does that now legally mean the FAA is going to say that you accepted and acknowledged you own a Drone even when you don't ?
I also see a place to down load a form to send in . Do they have a R/C Airplane form to use ?
I realise some people don't like their fixed wing aircraft being called drones but as Duncman said, your RC aircraft are drones according to the FAA definition.
They are also drones according to dictionary and ICAO definitions.
Last edited by Rob2160; 12-28-2015 at 03:15 AM.
12-28-2015, 05:51 AM
#134
I haven't read through this thread so these might have been mentioned
Evidently a drone is any object that has no physical connection to the ground including any ufos spotted by airplane or helicopter pilots including ducks, geese, dirt on windshield, flies, an excuse to divert flight path to spot sun bathers, eye burgers, footballs, baseballs, anything suspicious on the ground to look at, things that hide behind trees and spy on us, anything that could take away potential revenue from Amazon or equivalent, something that causes revenue loss from pilots for filming movies and an object that causes mass panic by by dropping out of the sky constantly making it difficult to walk, drive or go anywhere outside of your home
for those humor challenged just kidding..
Evidently a drone is any object that has no physical connection to the ground including any ufos spotted by airplane or helicopter pilots including ducks, geese, dirt on windshield, flies, an excuse to divert flight path to spot sun bathers, eye burgers, footballs, baseballs, anything suspicious on the ground to look at, things that hide behind trees and spy on us, anything that could take away potential revenue from Amazon or equivalent, something that causes revenue loss from pilots for filming movies and an object that causes mass panic by by dropping out of the sky constantly making it difficult to walk, drive or go anywhere outside of your home
for those humor challenged just kidding..
12-28-2015, 07:07 AM
#135
I received a AMA video that had two gentleman Chad Budreau & Rich Hanson.
They are ahead of the AMA Gov and Regulations Affairs team.
Listening to them talk I can really see why we are in this mess with the FAA.
They talked about the 400' we would be under and according them if you belong to the AMA you can break it with no problem.
In talking, one of them happened to say "drones" and quickly corrected himself saying "aircraft" so that is the mindset these people on our payroll. Sounds to me they made very little effort to separate airplanes from drones.
They are still thinking they can drag in more membership money keeps us hooked to drones.
They are ahead of the AMA Gov and Regulations Affairs team.
Listening to them talk I can really see why we are in this mess with the FAA.
They talked about the 400' we would be under and according them if you belong to the AMA you can break it with no problem.
In talking, one of them happened to say "drones" and quickly corrected himself saying "aircraft" so that is the mindset these people on our payroll. Sounds to me they made very little effort to separate airplanes from drones.
They are still thinking they can drag in more membership money keeps us hooked to drones.
12-28-2015, 08:17 AM
#136
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Could be for some but not for me. I've been around quite a few high end/high performance quads. I've seen them in action. None of it gives me the desire to take control and fly one though. I don't even really care to watch them anymore. Maybe the first few months when they were the newest thing out, I thought that they were "interesting". But that's about it. Not saying everyone should feel the same. But I do get pissed when I see one whizzing around over the neighborhood.
12-28-2015, 09:09 AM
#138
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I can't fly like that either but its fun trying.
I think we agree that the problem is not multi rotor pilots who fly safely like this. It is the uneducated who buy cheap plastic toys and fly them in places they are not supposed to. This impacts us all negatively.
I wonder how many times this scenario has occurred in the past few days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4refzhmxks
I think we agree that the problem is not multi rotor pilots who fly safely like this. It is the uneducated who buy cheap plastic toys and fly them in places they are not supposed to. This impacts us all negatively.
I wonder how many times this scenario has occurred in the past few days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4refzhmxks
But as someone posted earlier in another thread, it's knuckleheads like the one below who are very experienced flying multirotors and got into trouble. Inexperienced knuckleheads wouldn't have been able to fly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4
Last edited by SushiHunter; 12-28-2015 at 09:26 AM.
12-28-2015, 09:42 AM
#139
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Like it or not, the FAA had to "do something" when they were getting increased reports from pilots seeing flying objects from their cockpits. The reports were a leading indicator of a potential public safety issue. They were NEVER going to take a pass on this issue which is why the AMA's position of "leave us alone, we've been doing this for years...great safety record..." Etc. was never going to be accepted. The FAA needed some rules.
It is easy and necessary for rule making purposes for the FAA to call all things RC "drones". While I am of the opinion the the AMA is correct to embrace drones as part of the hobby, it would have been better to also differentiate by definition what constitutes a drone (i.e. We already have separate rules for turbines because of the unique characteristics and risks that present with that technology). We didn't define the unique characteristics of the types of aircraft that were presenting a risk to full-scale airplanes...so the FAA did. We spent a lot of money and the FAA took a predictable position of registration. It's kind of hard to do anything else...just like guns. Registration; uninvolved people feel better thinking something was done; involved people are the ones that are inconvenienced.
Which brings me to Andy's point (at least what I think he was getting at).
I don't know for sure, but my guess is that our IMAC, pattern, scale, "normal" helicopter stuff, etc. were NOT the culprits behind any of the close encounters with full-scale.
What were the common and unique characteristics and risks of the types of devices that were causing the reports to the FAA? That is a good starting point for a definition of a drone and would have been a good line to take with the FAA because for sure it would have eliminated many contraptions that now fall within the definition and are therefore subject to registration requirements.
I feel embracing drones without also differentiating them facilitated the all-inclusive definition that the FAA developed.
Tom
PS "normal" helicopter stuff isn't a drone.
12-28-2015, 09:46 AM
#140
What most people don't understand is that the FAA, just like the ATF defines and redefines things on the fly. Their definition of a drone is about at good as the electrons used to type these words. They can change it anytime they want without authorization from congress. So in essence, we are at the mercy of some Washington bureaurat to decide the fate of our hobby based on the definition they invent.
Last edited by AndyAndrews; 12-28-2015 at 09:48 AM.
12-28-2015, 02:43 PM
#142
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Here's a "drone" video that I thought was pretty cool and hope you think so too. Make sure you watch it to the happy ending.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Kym0e5J7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Kym0e5J7M
Last edited by SushiHunter; 12-28-2015 at 04:21 PM.
12-28-2015, 04:24 PM
#143
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But as someone posted earlier in another thread, it's knuckleheads like the one below who are very experienced flying multirotors and got into trouble. Inexperienced knuckleheads wouldn't have been able to fly like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZnJeuAja-4
Could be for some but not for me. I've been around quite a few high end/high performance quads. I've seen them in action. None of it gives me the desire to take control and fly one though. I don't even really care to watch them anymore. Maybe the first few months when they were the newest thing out, I thought that they were "interesting". But that's about it. Not saying everyone should feel the same. But I do get pissed when I see one whizzing around over the neighborhood.
I realised I was thinking about other things while flying the planes automatically so I packed up and went home early, No point flying them when there is no challenge or enjoyment left. I probably wouldn't even fly weekly now if it wasn't for Helicopters and the acro Multicopters. They are a lot more fun to fly but that is just my opinion.
12-28-2015, 04:41 PM
#144
I had not seen that video before - you are right, flying like that will do nothing good for the hobby either. He should have known better.
Like anything, its a personal preference and choice and I respect your view. I went flying yesterday and for a change decided to only take fixed wing aircraft. Honestly after flying these things for 36 years since the age of 14 it got boring quickly.
I realised I was thinking about other things while flying the planes automatically so I packed up and went home early, No point flying them when there is no challenge or enjoyment left. I probably wouldn't even fly weekly now if it wasn't for Helicopters and the acro Multicopters. They are a lot more fun to fly but that is just my opinion.
Like anything, its a personal preference and choice and I respect your view. I went flying yesterday and for a change decided to only take fixed wing aircraft. Honestly after flying these things for 36 years since the age of 14 it got boring quickly.
I realised I was thinking about other things while flying the planes automatically so I packed up and went home early, No point flying them when there is no challenge or enjoyment left. I probably wouldn't even fly weekly now if it wasn't for Helicopters and the acro Multicopters. They are a lot more fun to fly but that is just my opinion.
You will live "in the moment" again! I promise.
12-28-2015, 06:04 PM
#145
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Flying anything with a high wing loading, full or model size is just a matter of angle of attack control and not getting behind the drag curve.
12-29-2015, 08:22 AM
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I realised I was thinking about other things while flying the planes automatically so I packed up and went home early, No point flying them when there is no challenge or enjoyment left. I probably wouldn't even fly weekly now if it wasn't for Helicopters and the acro Multicopters. They are a lot more fun to fly but that is just my opinion.
12-29-2015, 08:31 AM
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I had not seen that video before - you are right, flying like that will do nothing good for the hobby either. He should have known better.
Like anything, its a personal preference and choice and I respect your view. I went flying yesterday and for a change decided to only take fixed wing aircraft. Honestly after flying these things for 36 years since the age of 14 it got boring quickly.
I realised I was thinking about other things while flying the planes automatically so I packed up and went home early, No point flying them when there is no challenge or enjoyment left. I probably wouldn't even fly weekly now if it wasn't for Helicopters and the acro Multicopters. They are a lot more fun to fly but that is just my opinion.
Like anything, its a personal preference and choice and I respect your view. I went flying yesterday and for a change decided to only take fixed wing aircraft. Honestly after flying these things for 36 years since the age of 14 it got boring quickly.
I realised I was thinking about other things while flying the planes automatically so I packed up and went home early, No point flying them when there is no challenge or enjoyment left. I probably wouldn't even fly weekly now if it wasn't for Helicopters and the acro Multicopters. They are a lot more fun to fly but that is just my opinion.
12-29-2015, 08:48 AM
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Exactly the point I tried to make a bit ago....MR Got me active in the hobby again. I once left the hobby for a few years to race boats ( nitro outriggers ) after pattern and heli flying, I'ts hands down the most exciting, adrenelin rush rc hobby out there bar none!!
One thing I've noticed about watching many various custom mr's is the larger they are, the more lethargic they perform. I also know personally about 8 local heli pilots who don't like mr's at all. They get on both the electric and nitro 700 t-rex helis and they are doing big air and crazy stuff. You can't say that mr's is a more of a adrenelin rush then that cause those guys are shaking while they are doing heli maneuvers a few feet off the ground. I've never seen anyone shaking while flying a g.d. mr.
Here's a heli video for you. Check it out and please post up a video of a mr "drone" that's even half exciting as this heli.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kv67V63ZEo
Last edited by SushiHunter; 12-29-2015 at 09:12 AM.