How the hobby has changed (relating to the hobbico post)
01-27-2018 | 11:05 AM
#1
How the hobby has changed (relating to the hobbico post)
So I skimmed through the hobbico post (didn't want to read it all) and it got me thinking about how the hobby really has changed. I have been flying since 1980 (started at 3 years old with my dad), I solo'd with a glider in 1982 and a 40 size trainer in 1984 (7 years old).
I look back through photo albums, think back to events, and I honestly truly miss those days. I see the hobby growing and dying all at once. Here is why I say that.
When I was just a little kid when you went to the field, or the events, every single airplane out there had been built from a kit, or from scratch, some were other people's designs, some were own designs, but every single airplane was built, and almost every single one was built by the person flying it. As a result, there seemed to be far more interest in each and every airplane and the social aspect was huge. Everyone was interested in everyone else's airplane. Even if there were 20 sig Kougar's at an event, they looked different. If there were 20 Spitfires at a scale event, each had it's own level of detail, was it's own mark, was unique in some way.
When somebody crashed an airplane they had the ability to repair it, often times they were flying it again the next day.
Then came along the ARF's. The first "successful" ARF's I remember were the EZ line with that goofy printed foam skin. They were shiny, and they were pretty, and at the time they drew a lot of interest because they still were not commonplace. They were also quite expensive at the time compared to building your own model from a kit.
As the ARF's improved they became more regular at the field. That was ok though, the social aspect seemed to remain.
As the 90's progressed you started seeing more and more airplanes that were "the same" at the field. Trainers started appearing in ARF form and we saw a bit of a surge in the hobby as people with no building skills could still pretty successfully assemble an ARF. The trouble was at that time even with an ARF trainer you would still have upwards of $500+ tied up in that airplane. Many of these ARF's sported sleek plastic pieces that so long as you never damaged them looked and worked pretty good. Unfortunately, that surge didn't seem to last. As most of us did, eventually you break your trainer. With zero building knowledge and costs high enough at the time (that $500 in the mid 90's was more expensive than $500 today is by far) that just replacing the airplane wasn't that feasable, we saw those same people that started, leave. The hobby seemed high risk when you were putting out a fair bit of money for something that you had no idea how to repair, or even know it was repairable and in the case of those flashy plastic bits, often were not repairable.
In the mid 90's I started flying pattern. The 2M planes were just gaining in popularity and again, pattern planes were kits. Most of the pilots built their own airplane, each one had it's own unique paint scheme and your building skills were equally as important as your flying skills if you wanted to really compete. There was a different respect amongst the pilots, who had a very light, very straight airplane and could fly it well?
In the sport flying world I began to see division in the social aspect starting. The new hobbiests (I hesitate to call them modelers at this point) who were entering the hobby with ARF's were not that interested in the kit built airplanes and the kit builders were not that interested in the ARF's, I started to see more "groups" forming.
Finally in 1999 I became involved in turbine modeling. I attended my first Jet event in 2000 and I was thrilled to see not a single ARF. The modelers were as I remembered, social, everyone interested in everyone else's airplanes, and each airplane unique. Even if there were 5 Kangaroo's every one looked different. Ducted Fan or turbine it didn't matter, we had all cut our teeth on ducted fan's and remembered building fiberglass and foam kits. It was a great time to be involved in jet modeling. The craftsmanship was showing up again and you could see the pride back in many people's faces.
This was also the time though that I started seeing people hiring others to build for them. That's ok too, as they were still unique airplanes, but there seemed to almost be a lack of pride in the "wrote the check" crowd. Not that that is a big deal really, but it was something I noticed.
Then came ARF Jets, again, just like in the 90's I saw a surge of new jet modelers arrive and the cycle began again.
Rather than draw this out further I'm going to jump ahead to today.
Today our society has become what I call a fast food society. I want it now, I want it cheap, and it doesn't really have to be good or unique. We have become a society where a $15,000 car is considered a "disposable vehicle".
In our hobby so many airplanes are available RTF, or PNP, they have gone way beyond ARF. We have people who have made a full time business out of not only building model airplanes, but even just assembling ARF's because there are people who don't know how to install a servo properly. Somehow there seems to be more disposable income than ever and when a model crashes we throw it away and just get a new one. (I will never understand that one myself).
Now we have quadcopters and other models that basically fly themselves, it takes almost no skill beyond knowing how to plug in a battery and flip a switch to fly it. We rely more than ever on things like Gyro's and telemetry etc and then blame the manufactures when those components fail.
When turbine modeling began it was average to spend $8000 on an "entry level" model ready to go. Today the technology has advanced, the models have doubled in size, and yet when something seems like a great deal it gets bought, fast food mentality, it's ARF, it's shiny, and it's cheap, I want it now, and then boom, you have Fly Eagle Jets with airplanes falling out of the sky.
15 years ago you could spend $15,000 building a bandit, fly it for 2 season's and still get $13,000 out of it. Now there are turnkey bandits being sold for $4500.
What bothers me the most though is the past few years, events that I have gone to, (and I admit they haven't been the big US events) have shown that division amongst modelers again. I see the groups, the cliques, it's not the big social event it always used to be, going to the local field shows me the same thing. People have lost the social skills, the drive, the interest. We don't all have to love what the next guy has, but there was a time that there was a mutual respect and appreciation.
In the hobbico thread I see people saying ARF's are killing the hobby, yet when you go to an event now, the majority are ARF's, mostly because that's what is available now.
I believe that it is not the ARF that is killing this hobby and causing companies like Hobbico to go under, it is that fast food mentality of I want it now, I want it cheap, and it doesn't have to be as good. If people didn't want it now, ARF's wouldn't exist in the first place.
Now this may not be everyone's experience and for the sake of the hobby I sincerely hope it isn't, but I know when I go fly at the local field, I send out an email to the club list saying "hey, weather looks good for XXXXday, I'm going to the field, who else is coming" and there is almost never a response, when you show up, there might be 4 or 5 guys there, each on their cell phones, maybe groups of 2 or 3.
In short, the hobby has grown because smart business has catered to that fast food mentality, unfortunately the hobby is dying due to it having gone from a hobby that involved craftsmanship, pride and mutual respect, to one of solitude amongst individuals. When I was younger I never dreamed of an airplane I could fly in a schoolyard, not because of the logistics of it, but because the social aspect was always equally important to me, I wanted to go to the club field, I wanted to see my "friends" and see what they had built.
I'll admit it, myself personally, when I go to a jet event and see 5 of one ARF, 3 of another ARF, 6 of another one, I really am not interested.
Maybe it's time we all start looking at building a kit again, not necessarily a jet, but a kit, and get back to the roots of it all. Maybe even more importantly we find a kid we can build a kit with, be it your own child, a nephew or niece, a neighbor whatever. Maybe it's a kadet, maybe it's just a rubber band model, but maybe it's time we start creating instead of just paying.
I wonder how many hobbiests today have never even considered building an airplane themselves, I wonder how many would love it if they just took the time?
I don't know, I think the hobby technologically is at an all time high, so it's sad to consider that it is dropping off and it's even sadder to think about what it will be 10 years from now. Myself personally, I don't want to fly foamies or drones but I fear that as the years progress, eventually that will be the majority and finding anything else will become extremely difficult.
Just my 2 cents which really in today's economy isn't worth squat....
I look back through photo albums, think back to events, and I honestly truly miss those days. I see the hobby growing and dying all at once. Here is why I say that.
When I was just a little kid when you went to the field, or the events, every single airplane out there had been built from a kit, or from scratch, some were other people's designs, some were own designs, but every single airplane was built, and almost every single one was built by the person flying it. As a result, there seemed to be far more interest in each and every airplane and the social aspect was huge. Everyone was interested in everyone else's airplane. Even if there were 20 sig Kougar's at an event, they looked different. If there were 20 Spitfires at a scale event, each had it's own level of detail, was it's own mark, was unique in some way.
When somebody crashed an airplane they had the ability to repair it, often times they were flying it again the next day.
Then came along the ARF's. The first "successful" ARF's I remember were the EZ line with that goofy printed foam skin. They were shiny, and they were pretty, and at the time they drew a lot of interest because they still were not commonplace. They were also quite expensive at the time compared to building your own model from a kit.
As the ARF's improved they became more regular at the field. That was ok though, the social aspect seemed to remain.
As the 90's progressed you started seeing more and more airplanes that were "the same" at the field. Trainers started appearing in ARF form and we saw a bit of a surge in the hobby as people with no building skills could still pretty successfully assemble an ARF. The trouble was at that time even with an ARF trainer you would still have upwards of $500+ tied up in that airplane. Many of these ARF's sported sleek plastic pieces that so long as you never damaged them looked and worked pretty good. Unfortunately, that surge didn't seem to last. As most of us did, eventually you break your trainer. With zero building knowledge and costs high enough at the time (that $500 in the mid 90's was more expensive than $500 today is by far) that just replacing the airplane wasn't that feasable, we saw those same people that started, leave. The hobby seemed high risk when you were putting out a fair bit of money for something that you had no idea how to repair, or even know it was repairable and in the case of those flashy plastic bits, often were not repairable.
In the mid 90's I started flying pattern. The 2M planes were just gaining in popularity and again, pattern planes were kits. Most of the pilots built their own airplane, each one had it's own unique paint scheme and your building skills were equally as important as your flying skills if you wanted to really compete. There was a different respect amongst the pilots, who had a very light, very straight airplane and could fly it well?
In the sport flying world I began to see division in the social aspect starting. The new hobbiests (I hesitate to call them modelers at this point) who were entering the hobby with ARF's were not that interested in the kit built airplanes and the kit builders were not that interested in the ARF's, I started to see more "groups" forming.
Finally in 1999 I became involved in turbine modeling. I attended my first Jet event in 2000 and I was thrilled to see not a single ARF. The modelers were as I remembered, social, everyone interested in everyone else's airplanes, and each airplane unique. Even if there were 5 Kangaroo's every one looked different. Ducted Fan or turbine it didn't matter, we had all cut our teeth on ducted fan's and remembered building fiberglass and foam kits. It was a great time to be involved in jet modeling. The craftsmanship was showing up again and you could see the pride back in many people's faces.
This was also the time though that I started seeing people hiring others to build for them. That's ok too, as they were still unique airplanes, but there seemed to almost be a lack of pride in the "wrote the check" crowd. Not that that is a big deal really, but it was something I noticed.
Then came ARF Jets, again, just like in the 90's I saw a surge of new jet modelers arrive and the cycle began again.
Rather than draw this out further I'm going to jump ahead to today.
Today our society has become what I call a fast food society. I want it now, I want it cheap, and it doesn't really have to be good or unique. We have become a society where a $15,000 car is considered a "disposable vehicle".
In our hobby so many airplanes are available RTF, or PNP, they have gone way beyond ARF. We have people who have made a full time business out of not only building model airplanes, but even just assembling ARF's because there are people who don't know how to install a servo properly. Somehow there seems to be more disposable income than ever and when a model crashes we throw it away and just get a new one. (I will never understand that one myself).
Now we have quadcopters and other models that basically fly themselves, it takes almost no skill beyond knowing how to plug in a battery and flip a switch to fly it. We rely more than ever on things like Gyro's and telemetry etc and then blame the manufactures when those components fail.
When turbine modeling began it was average to spend $8000 on an "entry level" model ready to go. Today the technology has advanced, the models have doubled in size, and yet when something seems like a great deal it gets bought, fast food mentality, it's ARF, it's shiny, and it's cheap, I want it now, and then boom, you have Fly Eagle Jets with airplanes falling out of the sky.
15 years ago you could spend $15,000 building a bandit, fly it for 2 season's and still get $13,000 out of it. Now there are turnkey bandits being sold for $4500.
What bothers me the most though is the past few years, events that I have gone to, (and I admit they haven't been the big US events) have shown that division amongst modelers again. I see the groups, the cliques, it's not the big social event it always used to be, going to the local field shows me the same thing. People have lost the social skills, the drive, the interest. We don't all have to love what the next guy has, but there was a time that there was a mutual respect and appreciation.
In the hobbico thread I see people saying ARF's are killing the hobby, yet when you go to an event now, the majority are ARF's, mostly because that's what is available now.
I believe that it is not the ARF that is killing this hobby and causing companies like Hobbico to go under, it is that fast food mentality of I want it now, I want it cheap, and it doesn't have to be as good. If people didn't want it now, ARF's wouldn't exist in the first place.
Now this may not be everyone's experience and for the sake of the hobby I sincerely hope it isn't, but I know when I go fly at the local field, I send out an email to the club list saying "hey, weather looks good for XXXXday, I'm going to the field, who else is coming" and there is almost never a response, when you show up, there might be 4 or 5 guys there, each on their cell phones, maybe groups of 2 or 3.
In short, the hobby has grown because smart business has catered to that fast food mentality, unfortunately the hobby is dying due to it having gone from a hobby that involved craftsmanship, pride and mutual respect, to one of solitude amongst individuals. When I was younger I never dreamed of an airplane I could fly in a schoolyard, not because of the logistics of it, but because the social aspect was always equally important to me, I wanted to go to the club field, I wanted to see my "friends" and see what they had built.
I'll admit it, myself personally, when I go to a jet event and see 5 of one ARF, 3 of another ARF, 6 of another one, I really am not interested.
Maybe it's time we all start looking at building a kit again, not necessarily a jet, but a kit, and get back to the roots of it all. Maybe even more importantly we find a kid we can build a kit with, be it your own child, a nephew or niece, a neighbor whatever. Maybe it's a kadet, maybe it's just a rubber band model, but maybe it's time we start creating instead of just paying.
I wonder how many hobbiests today have never even considered building an airplane themselves, I wonder how many would love it if they just took the time?
I don't know, I think the hobby technologically is at an all time high, so it's sad to consider that it is dropping off and it's even sadder to think about what it will be 10 years from now. Myself personally, I don't want to fly foamies or drones but I fear that as the years progress, eventually that will be the majority and finding anything else will become extremely difficult.
Just my 2 cents which really in today's economy isn't worth squat....
01-27-2018 | 11:23 AM
#2
My Feedback: (11)
I remember the first time I saw this guy, who had really big awesome airplanes and he just enjoyed building them. He always asked others to fly them for him. He really just liked building them and, I suppose, seeing other people fly them.
I never understood that. But I did learn that people get all sorts of "stuff" out of their own particular hobby.
One of my closest flying buddies is like a revolving door with jets! He just likes to get and sell, to get new ones! To each his own.
And I'm totally with you Jeremy, the camaraderie, and the fun ribbing, and the pushing each other on, is > 65% of the fun of the hobby for me too.
I never understood that. But I did learn that people get all sorts of "stuff" out of their own particular hobby.
One of my closest flying buddies is like a revolving door with jets! He just likes to get and sell, to get new ones! To each his own.
And I'm totally with you Jeremy, the camaraderie, and the fun ribbing, and the pushing each other on, is > 65% of the fun of the hobby for me too.
01-27-2018 | 04:30 PM
#4
I agree with what you're saying Jeremy, a lot of us back East are getting tired of the ARF mentality. Three of us are building 10% enlarge Turbinators, and I know of one 33% Waco that is on the build table and a Hurricane as well. There are a lot of builders here.
ARFs are a great way to get in the air quickly, but that's it. I, personally, was disappointed when Yellow Aircraft closed shop. They had a couple kits I was ready to pull the trigger on, but didn't get the chance.
Hopefully, this trend of more builds in the area continues to grow.
Al's, Todd's, and my Turb cockpit attached...
Dan
ARFs are a great way to get in the air quickly, but that's it. I, personally, was disappointed when Yellow Aircraft closed shop. They had a couple kits I was ready to pull the trigger on, but didn't get the chance.
Hopefully, this trend of more builds in the area continues to grow.
Al's, Todd's, and my Turb cockpit attached...
Dan
Last edited by Sparhawk; 01-27-2018 at 04:40 PM.
01-27-2018 | 04:38 PM
#5
01-27-2018 | 04:57 PM
#6
My Feedback: (6)
I agree with you Jeremy, the camaraderie is so much of the hobby. I'm very fortunate here, I fly with some absolutely awesome guys, some of whom have become friends "outside" of the hobby too.
I've been building model airplanes since I was a kid (56 now). I must admit that the last kit I built though was a Carden in 2008...that's now 10 years ago but, I still fly it regularly. Everything since has been an ARF. I like to fly more than build I guess.
Building is so labour intensive it's insane. Then to destroy or damage a plane that you have put all that effort into is heart breaking. I wish I had all the planes that I've built over the years but, they're long gone and so is all that work that went into them.
I'd rather buy an ARF now, fly the crap out of it and if it gets wrecked, buy another one....it just makes so much more sense to me.
Mike
I've been building model airplanes since I was a kid (56 now). I must admit that the last kit I built though was a Carden in 2008...that's now 10 years ago but, I still fly it regularly. Everything since has been an ARF. I like to fly more than build I guess.
Building is so labour intensive it's insane. Then to destroy or damage a plane that you have put all that effort into is heart breaking. I wish I had all the planes that I've built over the years but, they're long gone and so is all that work that went into them.
I'd rather buy an ARF now, fly the crap out of it and if it gets wrecked, buy another one....it just makes so much more sense to me.
Mike
Last edited by luv2flyrc; 01-27-2018 at 05:00 PM.
01-27-2018 | 05:22 PM
#7
My Feedback: (7)
Very interesting comments and observations, I have to say that I have seen some of that at my flying field, the groups, the tons of ARF ( myself included 
) and yes there is no praide so loosing an ARF means nothing, thats how I felt whem my 30cc Escapade went in right infront of me.<br /><br />I have been thinking that I want to build from kits more often, like before, I already started by completing my Ziroli Turbinator, next is a BTE Reaction and I have been contemplating to build a Hammer 40 from a laser short kit, why all this building again, simple, I had enough of ARF look alike, I want to have something unique.
I'm still typing ( at work at the moment )
I was remembering just the other day how much fun was to build my very first trainer, I've had two other airplanes before ( I bought them from a friend ) after I build my first airplane I was hooked on building, I used to be able to frame up a sport 40 size airplanes in a week and have it covered and ready to fly the following week, my last build took me just under 10 years to build, I'm changing that, I'm glad that some airplane plans are available as laser cut short kits so the building can continue.
) and yes there is no praide so loosing an ARF means nothing, thats how I felt whem my 30cc Escapade went in right infront of me.<br /><br />I have been thinking that I want to build from kits more often, like before, I already started by completing my Ziroli Turbinator, next is a BTE Reaction and I have been contemplating to build a Hammer 40 from a laser short kit, why all this building again, simple, I had enough of ARF look alike, I want to have something unique.I'm still typing ( at work at the moment )
I was remembering just the other day how much fun was to build my very first trainer, I've had two other airplanes before ( I bought them from a friend ) after I build my first airplane I was hooked on building, I used to be able to frame up a sport 40 size airplanes in a week and have it covered and ready to fly the following week, my last build took me just under 10 years to build, I'm changing that, I'm glad that some airplane plans are available as laser cut short kits so the building can continue.
Last edited by CARS II; 01-27-2018 at 06:12 PM.
01-27-2018 | 06:51 PM
#8
My Feedback: (4)
the thrill is gone
Jeremy,
I agree with you I think that the hobby has gone down hill with the ARF's that are out there, but lets be truthful back in the day things were a lot different than today. I remember back in the 80's people going to work from 8-5 coming home at regular times, having dinner, and having that free time to build in the evenings and weekend. Now most people don't have that time anymore where work now consumes a lot of their time, or if you are like me I work full time and am a full time college student in his late 40's. I honestly don't have time to think, much less build. Before I went back to school I would spend some time working on my planes in the evening when I could but I had a young son and wife that needed my attention. Now I am about to graduate and will have more time to work on planes in a few months and plan on doing a lot more flying, and I have a couple of kits that I want to build...so looking forward to that, but my last airplane was an ARF since I had very little time.
As far as the friendship at the fields that boils down to the amount of A%$H^%$S you have at your field. I am a member of two local fields and prefer to fly at the less nicer of the two because the president ensures that the clubs main point is for everyone to have fun. At my other club you have the elitist *****s or the old men who hate fast moving planes of any sorts so they cause issues every time they can.
So yes the hobby has and still is changing, but if as older flyers we take care of those coming into the hobby it will be great again. I have ensured that my son knows what the hobby is about, FUN! He is also becoming a mechanical engineer and one of his goals it to learn how to build his own planes. I have taught him how to build, how to fiberglass, paint, use covering, etc. I just hope when and if he has kids that he teaches them to love the hobby or allows "grandpa" to do it. Or better yet three generations in the garage working on airplanes, even if they are an ARF...now for me that's most important.
Patrick
I agree with you I think that the hobby has gone down hill with the ARF's that are out there, but lets be truthful back in the day things were a lot different than today. I remember back in the 80's people going to work from 8-5 coming home at regular times, having dinner, and having that free time to build in the evenings and weekend. Now most people don't have that time anymore where work now consumes a lot of their time, or if you are like me I work full time and am a full time college student in his late 40's. I honestly don't have time to think, much less build. Before I went back to school I would spend some time working on my planes in the evening when I could but I had a young son and wife that needed my attention. Now I am about to graduate and will have more time to work on planes in a few months and plan on doing a lot more flying, and I have a couple of kits that I want to build...so looking forward to that, but my last airplane was an ARF since I had very little time.
As far as the friendship at the fields that boils down to the amount of A%$H^%$S you have at your field. I am a member of two local fields and prefer to fly at the less nicer of the two because the president ensures that the clubs main point is for everyone to have fun. At my other club you have the elitist *****s or the old men who hate fast moving planes of any sorts so they cause issues every time they can.
So yes the hobby has and still is changing, but if as older flyers we take care of those coming into the hobby it will be great again. I have ensured that my son knows what the hobby is about, FUN! He is also becoming a mechanical engineer and one of his goals it to learn how to build his own planes. I have taught him how to build, how to fiberglass, paint, use covering, etc. I just hope when and if he has kids that he teaches them to love the hobby or allows "grandpa" to do it. Or better yet three generations in the garage working on airplanes, even if they are an ARF...now for me that's most important.
Patrick
Last edited by sirrom; 01-27-2018 at 08:52 PM.
01-27-2018 | 07:21 PM
#9
I don’t think ARFs are the problem, it’s just a new generation that isn’t interested enough, I will say they instant gratification is a big thing now but that’s just society in general. That all being said try buying an arf from bvm these days that isn’t pnp. They will not just sell the jet solo, you have to buy everything ready to go or nothing.
01-27-2018 | 07:53 PM
#10
I think Patrick hit the nail on the head with the amount of time we spend with work and family. When I was an active builder, I had no kids and was just starting my career. Fast forward to graduate school, 2 kids and a wife, and a demanding job, and I don’t have time to build. With the limited free time I have, I prefer to fly than build. Given my schedule it would take me a decade to build a kit.
True story, I bought a PNP foam turbine F-16. It took me 9 months to find the time to install the turbine. I still haven’t flown it. 😂
True story, I bought a PNP foam turbine F-16. It took me 9 months to find the time to install the turbine. I still haven’t flown it. 😂
01-27-2018 | 08:30 PM
#11
Another, more concerning, side of that story.
The young generation that used to dream about planes would come to the model field and start building their own small project with their dad. They would start developing an engineering taste from the age of 13. And love for airplanes.
By the time they would arrive at the University, they would already know how to build an airplane.
This has been lost. This is what made the US Aerospace Industry so great.
I am in constant look for young Aerospace Engineers and Technicians.
I do not find any technicians in this part of the World. Fair enough, I can train them from scratch.
But not engineers.
The engineers that are made available to me are IT geeks. They have no practical sense of manufacture and very little engineering taste. Typically, they are lightning fast when it comes to designing a part on CAD, but this part is almost impossible to produce! I would have to put them on the production line for years to be able to get them to create something that can be manufactured. But they don't want to get anywhere near the shop floor. And anyway, the trigger point starts at the age of 13, when one makes and flies the first plane with Dad. I cannot substitute this for any training...
The Western World Aerospace Industry is getting a huge hit as the old school engineers are retiring.
The young generation that used to dream about planes would come to the model field and start building their own small project with their dad. They would start developing an engineering taste from the age of 13. And love for airplanes.
By the time they would arrive at the University, they would already know how to build an airplane.
This has been lost. This is what made the US Aerospace Industry so great.
I am in constant look for young Aerospace Engineers and Technicians.
I do not find any technicians in this part of the World. Fair enough, I can train them from scratch.
But not engineers.
The engineers that are made available to me are IT geeks. They have no practical sense of manufacture and very little engineering taste. Typically, they are lightning fast when it comes to designing a part on CAD, but this part is almost impossible to produce! I would have to put them on the production line for years to be able to get them to create something that can be manufactured. But they don't want to get anywhere near the shop floor. And anyway, the trigger point starts at the age of 13, when one makes and flies the first plane with Dad. I cannot substitute this for any training...
The Western World Aerospace Industry is getting a huge hit as the old school engineers are retiring.
01-27-2018 | 09:15 PM
#13
My Feedback: (4)
food for thought
Another, more concerning, side of that story.
I am in constant look for young Aerospace Engineers and Technicians.
I do not find any technicians in this part of the World. Fair enough, I can train them from scratch.
But not engineers.
The engineers that are made available to me are IT geeks. They have no practical sense of manufacture and very little engineering taste. Typically, they are lightning fast when it comes to designing a part on CAD, but this part is almost impossible to produce! I would have to put them on the production line for years to be able to get them to create something that can be manufactured. But they don't want to get anywhere near the shop floor. And anyway, the trigger point starts at the age of 13, when one makes and flies the first plane with Dad. I cannot substitute this for any training...
The Western World Aerospace Industry is getting a huge hit as the old school engineers are retiring.
I am in constant look for young Aerospace Engineers and Technicians.
I do not find any technicians in this part of the World. Fair enough, I can train them from scratch.
But not engineers.
The engineers that are made available to me are IT geeks. They have no practical sense of manufacture and very little engineering taste. Typically, they are lightning fast when it comes to designing a part on CAD, but this part is almost impossible to produce! I would have to put them on the production line for years to be able to get them to create something that can be manufactured. But they don't want to get anywhere near the shop floor. And anyway, the trigger point starts at the age of 13, when one makes and flies the first plane with Dad. I cannot substitute this for any training...
The Western World Aerospace Industry is getting a huge hit as the old school engineers are retiring.
01-28-2018 | 02:28 AM
#14
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From: Norfolk , UNITED KINGDOM
We are just going through a period of change.. many older modellers are hanging up their tools. For many years it has been very rare to see a scratch built plane especially one that has not been modelled before.
I agree with many who have commented that youngsters just spend more and more time on their phones and social media taking endless photos of each other, mostly themselves. Some seem to be plugged in all the time. Not sure how they manage it with the battery life bing so short though!
I like to compare it with clock making
Our Grandfathers made clocks
Our fathers knew how to repair them
Our generation just buy a new one when the old one fails
Our children cannot be bothered to wind them or fit new batteries
Their children do not know what clocks are as they only use the mobile to tell the time.
I found this video that shows the bygone age of making them at the Elgin watch making factory. Well worth a look as few films of manufacturing in early industry survive. The factory ran for 100 years being demolished in the 1960's. It employed huge numbers of very skilled people as can be seen at the beginning and end of the film. Technology changed of course to making quartz movements and now the use of mobiles. Change in the last 50 years has been amazing. Very difficult for a manufacturer to keep up. This was an age when man was at his most advanced making very complex machines to speed making complex parts. Have a look at the machine making screws at 12:35.
We should not be too upset by change in the modelling world. I had a childhood away from TV and telephones and learned how to make things with my hands as I had plenty of time available. At our school we had a modelling club for use when we had spare time. By 10 those who wanted to could make balsa and tissue models to launch off the model club steps and we were not supervised at all by teachers. A few years later and we built control line models and were flying combat planes. Our children are in an ever connected world and cannot see the point and certainly do not get the same excitement of making a plane from scratch or even better designing and making one from scratch. I always think it is a thing of wonder that it is possible to make a scratch built model of a plane that has never flown before and manage to get it successfully into the air. It is this that drove me to make my jet models. We never called ourselves engineers and we just learned mostly by trial and error. I love to make things and it is possible to design and make our small jet engines from scratch in our own workshops. I guess that the modern generation will start now from having designed and proved it works on the computer first.
Recently I have been renovating old lathes and have bought a 70 year old superb US made Rivett lathe. Sad thing is that scraping is now almost a lost art. 50 years ago it was possible to find someone to do the work. It is nigh on impossible now and it is even difficult to find anyone that can regrind beds. The throw away society has reached machine tools now. Everyone I spoke to was about to retire and there is no-one coming on too replace them. Hand scraping is hard physical work and not easy to learn, though there are now plenty of Youtube videos available.
John
I agree with many who have commented that youngsters just spend more and more time on their phones and social media taking endless photos of each other, mostly themselves. Some seem to be plugged in all the time. Not sure how they manage it with the battery life bing so short though!
I like to compare it with clock making
Our Grandfathers made clocks
Our fathers knew how to repair them
Our generation just buy a new one when the old one fails
Our children cannot be bothered to wind them or fit new batteries
Their children do not know what clocks are as they only use the mobile to tell the time.
We should not be too upset by change in the modelling world. I had a childhood away from TV and telephones and learned how to make things with my hands as I had plenty of time available. At our school we had a modelling club for use when we had spare time. By 10 those who wanted to could make balsa and tissue models to launch off the model club steps and we were not supervised at all by teachers. A few years later and we built control line models and were flying combat planes. Our children are in an ever connected world and cannot see the point and certainly do not get the same excitement of making a plane from scratch or even better designing and making one from scratch. I always think it is a thing of wonder that it is possible to make a scratch built model of a plane that has never flown before and manage to get it successfully into the air. It is this that drove me to make my jet models. We never called ourselves engineers and we just learned mostly by trial and error. I love to make things and it is possible to design and make our small jet engines from scratch in our own workshops. I guess that the modern generation will start now from having designed and proved it works on the computer first.
Recently I have been renovating old lathes and have bought a 70 year old superb US made Rivett lathe. Sad thing is that scraping is now almost a lost art. 50 years ago it was possible to find someone to do the work. It is nigh on impossible now and it is even difficult to find anyone that can regrind beds. The throw away society has reached machine tools now. Everyone I spoke to was about to retire and there is no-one coming on too replace them. Hand scraping is hard physical work and not easy to learn, though there are now plenty of Youtube videos available.
John
01-28-2018 | 03:08 AM
#15
I am an IT person myself and my son wants to be the engineer. He said that he wanted to learn how to fix cars and motorcycles and I said to him that it's important that you be able to design parts so please learn how to use programs to design parts. Well he quickly replied, "Well dad how can I design a part if I don't understand how it works in the overall system or understand how it will improve the operation of the system." I had nothing to say to the logic. So I am glad I read what you wrote it kind of reinforces his choice. BTW he is actually a pretty good CAD designer and motorcycle mechanic.
I am glad to see that there are still young people with the appropriate picture of engineering design around!
01-28-2018 | 06:59 AM
#16
The world has changed in so many ways, it is simply what happens. Everything changes, worrying about who is doing this and who is doing that is rather pointless. If you like flying RC jets/helis/glider/yachts/cars/bananas/oranges who cares what others are doing, You have other threads about JR/Futaba going under, drones taking over, hobbico going under, no one building anymore because of arf am i missing something?
When I started it was with a KO-Digiace in 1979, then a Century7, then PCM9 then I think I had a Futaba, then JR, then MC-24 now custom stuff they all had good/bad points on the TX/RX side. Been though all the manufactures as well. Jets used to be balsa and epoxy now full composite and it is not enough.
So in regards to the hobbico thread if JR can go under why then is Futaba safe, other TX manufacturers have gone under. There is now huge competition and so many TX/RX/servo/gyro manufacturers, of course everyone always chimes in on what is the best and the wars on threads over the years is never ending. I personally never understood how one can be so attached to a piece of electronics. Additionally now days you cannot ever be sure who actually makes a lot of the subsystems in these radio’s, the never ending demand for lower cost systems also has a large impact.
It is all down to what works for you, let’s not forget that these companies would sponsor guys all over the place and so it all becomes a huge convoluted market place. Outstanding pilots are good because of their skill not their radios. We are not talking Formula 1 and 500mil $$ teams this is model aircraft?
Finally the world is moving from a very long period of historically low interest rates to one where most central backs are starting to look to tightening and increasing rates, this is going to bring huge changes the landscape in many industries globally and when things get tight the first to go is the hobbies.
What does any ot this have to do with flying and having a great time with RC jets and with others at the field?
Regards,
When I started it was with a KO-Digiace in 1979, then a Century7, then PCM9 then I think I had a Futaba, then JR, then MC-24 now custom stuff they all had good/bad points on the TX/RX side. Been though all the manufactures as well. Jets used to be balsa and epoxy now full composite and it is not enough.
So in regards to the hobbico thread if JR can go under why then is Futaba safe, other TX manufacturers have gone under. There is now huge competition and so many TX/RX/servo/gyro manufacturers, of course everyone always chimes in on what is the best and the wars on threads over the years is never ending. I personally never understood how one can be so attached to a piece of electronics. Additionally now days you cannot ever be sure who actually makes a lot of the subsystems in these radio’s, the never ending demand for lower cost systems also has a large impact.
It is all down to what works for you, let’s not forget that these companies would sponsor guys all over the place and so it all becomes a huge convoluted market place. Outstanding pilots are good because of their skill not their radios. We are not talking Formula 1 and 500mil $$ teams this is model aircraft?
Finally the world is moving from a very long period of historically low interest rates to one where most central backs are starting to look to tightening and increasing rates, this is going to bring huge changes the landscape in many industries globally and when things get tight the first to go is the hobbies.
What does any ot this have to do with flying and having a great time with RC jets and with others at the field?
Regards,
Last edited by Halcyon66; 01-28-2018 at 07:09 AM.
01-28-2018 | 07:31 AM
#17
What's crazy is my son's friend who is currently in college for Aerospace Engineering and he has absolutly no intetest in model airplanes!? I never could convince him to even come watch me fly my jet let alone participate. Crazy. I guess I may be incorrectly assuming that a person in that field would be interrested in flight!?
01-28-2018 | 07:54 AM
#18
Another, more concerning, side of that story.
The young generation that used to dream about planes would come to the model field and start building their own small project with their dad. They would start developing an engineering taste from the age of 13. And love for airplanes.
By the time they would arrive at the University, they would already know how to build an airplane.
This has been lost. This is what made the US Aerospace Industry so great.
I am in constant look for young Aerospace Engineers and Technicians.
I do not find any technicians in this part of the World. Fair enough, I can train them from scratch.
But not engineers.
The engineers that are made available to me are IT geeks. They have no practical sense of manufacture and very little engineering taste. Typically, they are lightning fast when it comes to designing a part on CAD, but this part is almost impossible to produce! I would have to put them on the production line for years to be able to get them to create something that can be manufactured. But they don't want to get anywhere near the shop floor. And anyway, the trigger point starts at the age of 13, when one makes and flies the first plane with Dad. I cannot substitute this for any training...
The Western World Aerospace Industry is getting a huge hit as the old school engineers are retiring.
The young generation that used to dream about planes would come to the model field and start building their own small project with their dad. They would start developing an engineering taste from the age of 13. And love for airplanes.
By the time they would arrive at the University, they would already know how to build an airplane.
This has been lost. This is what made the US Aerospace Industry so great.
I am in constant look for young Aerospace Engineers and Technicians.
I do not find any technicians in this part of the World. Fair enough, I can train them from scratch.
But not engineers.
The engineers that are made available to me are IT geeks. They have no practical sense of manufacture and very little engineering taste. Typically, they are lightning fast when it comes to designing a part on CAD, but this part is almost impossible to produce! I would have to put them on the production line for years to be able to get them to create something that can be manufactured. But they don't want to get anywhere near the shop floor. And anyway, the trigger point starts at the age of 13, when one makes and flies the first plane with Dad. I cannot substitute this for any training...
The Western World Aerospace Industry is getting a huge hit as the old school engineers are retiring.
01-28-2018 | 08:04 AM
#19
My son's in college for Mechanical Engineering and although I agree they need to know how to function current software (CAD etc), they aren't software programmers, thats an entirely different major and career path.
01-28-2018 | 09:35 AM
#20
My Feedback: (48)
I think your missing what really happened to the hobby. the hobby is dying because the people that used to be interested in rc are now interested in video games. online gaming has the social aspect as well. pick up a controller and fly everything you want on xbox. no need to build or buy a rc plane.
we are the last of the dying bread im afraid. no new people coming in. when we die the hobby dies.
scott
we are the last of the dying bread im afraid. no new people coming in. when we die the hobby dies.
scott
01-28-2018 | 12:13 PM
#21
My Feedback: (4)
I think your missing what really happened to the hobby. the hobby is dying because the people that used to be interested in rc are now interested in video games. online gaming has the social aspect as well. pick up a controller and fly everything you want on xbox. no need to build or buy a rc plane.
we are the last of the dying bread im afraid. no new people coming in. when we die the hobby dies.
scott
we are the last of the dying bread im afraid. no new people coming in. when we die the hobby dies.
scott
Patrick
01-28-2018 | 12:33 PM
#22
My Feedback: (99)
We still have young guys at our field (I'm 54 so young is 18-25) and one of them is an outstanding jet pilot who just got a new large twin engine warbird to build from Skymaster and he's like 24. It's an ARF, but far from PNP.
I am gone 60 hours a week for work and between having a wife and trying to stay physically fit, an ARF is all I can do if I want to fly. I like flying more than assembling but even so I just ordered a Havoc SS and will assemble it over the winter because I still like the assembly aspect as well. I have built from a kit and my "goal" is to do that again when I retire but I figure there will be no kits then. I'll buy whatever someone crashes at the time and rebuild it better than it was and that will have to suffice.
For now, there are at least four guys 40 and under that fly IMAC and turbines, etc, around here and that is hopefully enough to get new interest and keep the hobby going. I've been flying since the 80's and I don't want to stop until I am simply not able to fly an longer. If we want to promote the hobby, all of us and our clubs need to spread the word in many different ways because we are the ambassadors.
I am gone 60 hours a week for work and between having a wife and trying to stay physically fit, an ARF is all I can do if I want to fly. I like flying more than assembling but even so I just ordered a Havoc SS and will assemble it over the winter because I still like the assembly aspect as well. I have built from a kit and my "goal" is to do that again when I retire but I figure there will be no kits then. I'll buy whatever someone crashes at the time and rebuild it better than it was and that will have to suffice.
For now, there are at least four guys 40 and under that fly IMAC and turbines, etc, around here and that is hopefully enough to get new interest and keep the hobby going. I've been flying since the 80's and I don't want to stop until I am simply not able to fly an longer. If we want to promote the hobby, all of us and our clubs need to spread the word in many different ways because we are the ambassadors.
01-28-2018 | 12:34 PM
#23
Well Patick, I agree that quads may very well kill R/C airplanes. In fact, if there are many more headlines like this one then all R/C will become illegal :
"The Canadian transport minister announced Sunday (10/15/17) a drone recently collided with a commercial aircraft, marking a first in North America."
I have no problems with drones but a big problem with their moronic operators casting a bad light on all of R/C.
"The Canadian transport minister announced Sunday (10/15/17) a drone recently collided with a commercial aircraft, marking a first in North America."
I have no problems with drones but a big problem with their moronic operators casting a bad light on all of R/C.
01-28-2018 | 03:47 PM
#24
My Feedback: (4)
100% Agree
Well Patick, I agree that quads may very well kill R/C airplanes. In fact, if there are many more headlines like this one then all R/C will become illegal :
"The Canadian transport minister announced Sunday (10/15/17) a drone recently collided with a commercial aircraft, marking a first in North America."
I have no problems with drones but a big problem with their moronic operators casting a bad light on all of R/C.
"The Canadian transport minister announced Sunday (10/15/17) a drone recently collided with a commercial aircraft, marking a first in North America."
I have no problems with drones but a big problem with their moronic operators casting a bad light on all of R/C.
Patrick
01-28-2018 | 04:20 PM
#25
If you cannot afford to belong to a club or the parent organization then you will have to fly on your own or with others in the same position. Its not illegal and lots do just that.
This sense of entitlement that is rampant in society today makes me want to gag.
Dennis
