General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
02-04-2004, 08:55 PM
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General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
I'm about to take the turbine plunge. Thud_Driver has counseled me to buy as much turbine as I can afford, even if that means waiting 6 mo. to build up the funds necessary. It's tempting to just go buy a 12-pound turbine because I can afford it now, slap it into my Cermark Aermacchi, and be flying within a couple of months (assuming the AMA gets their act together and enacts the buddy box rule).
What is your advice? Jump for the smaller turbine and start learning & having fun earlier, or wait for a bigger engine and get one that will be able to power my future models?
This thread is not intended to answer the question, "Which turbine brand is best?!!" so please don't go there!
Thanks,
Flanker
What is your advice? Jump for the smaller turbine and start learning & having fun earlier, or wait for a bigger engine and get one that will be able to power my future models?
This thread is not intended to answer the question, "Which turbine brand is best?!!" so please don't go there!
Thanks,
Flanker
02-04-2004, 09:37 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Hey Flanker,
It's my thought if your goal is to fly the larger models well........ measure twice cut ( buy)once.
David Hudson
www.dcmodelshop.com
It's my thought if your goal is to fly the larger models well........ measure twice cut ( buy)once.
David Hudson
www.dcmodelshop.com
02-04-2004, 11:08 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
I'm fairly new to jets but an old salt to modeling. I have run a couple of turbines and they can be scary when things are not right. At the jet meets that I attended the guys that had reliable motors had the most fun. Another consideration is your next jet. Assuming things go well with the first one, what would you like to fly next, maybe a larger model that is easier to see and feels bigger? That's what drove my decision, reliability (Possible resale) and the next jet project.
Good luck.
Good luck.
02-05-2004, 08:38 AM
#4
RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Agree with buy just onces.
I had to made that decition a couple of month ago between a P-120 or a P-80.
I decided the P-120, weight the same than the other, and can be use is large models.
Is up to you to spend more now to save money later.-
Good Luck,
Miguel
I had to made that decition a couple of month ago between a P-120 or a P-80.
I decided the P-120, weight the same than the other, and can be use is large models.
Is up to you to spend more now to save money later.-
Good Luck,
Miguel
02-05-2004, 10:37 AM
#5
RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
David,
I think the "correct" answer to your question is highly dependent on (1) what your future jet project plans are, and (2) what your hobby budget can accommodate.
On the surface, it is easy to say, "Buy the most turbine you can afford", but a big (high thrust) turbine comes with a lot of other expenses in the form of large (i.e. expensive) airframes and (heavy duty/custom) landing gear. If your jet hobby budget has to scrimp and save for months/years just to get the "big, name brand engine", how long will that engine sit in the box on your shelf while you scrimp and save to buy a suitable airframe and landing gear setup for this engine? Just athought...
My opinion is that if you can afford to drop $5k-$10k in a turbine powered jet, then definitely buy the Cadillac right out of the gate. However, if your budget can only support $2k-$3k jet, go with the 12lb engine and put it in an inexpensive .91 DF airframe with Spring Air retracts + Robart (or 3/16 wire!) struts and go fly. I fall in to the latter category and that is the path I intend to follow come April this year. Every single one of my multitude of unbuilt DF kits will support the 12lb turbine class engine and I can buy two 12lb engines for the cost of one of the Cadillac variants....
Later,
Peter
I think the "correct" answer to your question is highly dependent on (1) what your future jet project plans are, and (2) what your hobby budget can accommodate.
On the surface, it is easy to say, "Buy the most turbine you can afford", but a big (high thrust) turbine comes with a lot of other expenses in the form of large (i.e. expensive) airframes and (heavy duty/custom) landing gear. If your jet hobby budget has to scrimp and save for months/years just to get the "big, name brand engine", how long will that engine sit in the box on your shelf while you scrimp and save to buy a suitable airframe and landing gear setup for this engine? Just athought...
My opinion is that if you can afford to drop $5k-$10k in a turbine powered jet, then definitely buy the Cadillac right out of the gate. However, if your budget can only support $2k-$3k jet, go with the 12lb engine and put it in an inexpensive .91 DF airframe with Spring Air retracts + Robart (or 3/16 wire!) struts and go fly. I fall in to the latter category and that is the path I intend to follow come April this year. Every single one of my multitude of unbuilt DF kits will support the 12lb turbine class engine and I can buy two 12lb engines for the cost of one of the Cadillac variants....
Later,
Peter
02-06-2004, 08:04 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Peter,
Well, that's really the whole point of my question. I would love to get into larger airplanes, but for the price of the larger engine (that I can't quite afford yet), I can get both a smaller engine AND the next kit to put it in. After the Aermacchi, there are lots of other kits I'd like to put together. I'm sure I'd have a lot of fun with either a BVM or an Oosthuizen Sabre, or Henk's F1, or an Avonds F-104.
If I go with the larger engine, my Aermacchi goes out the door and I get something like a Eurosport. That's pretty much an even swap cost-wise, even after doing the mods to keep the Eurosport from exploding in mid-air. I then have a choice for my next bird of going a little or a lot more expensive, but every bird will certainly be bigger. Skymaster F-18 would be an option. So would the upcoming X-35 (gotta have one of those!). Even the KingCat is a reasonable option, considering the price of the kit includes both landing gear and fuel tanks.
What made me decide to go turbine is a) upcoming buddy box rule from the AMA, and b) the Arizona Jet Rally. Out there I saw that guys are having WAY more fun with turbines than they had with df. The engine reliability and extra thrust from turbines have justified the additional cost by providing an increased fun quotient. So in the interest of having more fun and not spending so much time fiddling with df, I'm willing to spend more money and go turbine. The question is, how much more do I have to spend to maximize MY fun quotient?
Are big airplanes so much more fun than smaller airplanes that they're really worth their higher costs?
Well, that's really the whole point of my question. I would love to get into larger airplanes, but for the price of the larger engine (that I can't quite afford yet), I can get both a smaller engine AND the next kit to put it in. After the Aermacchi, there are lots of other kits I'd like to put together. I'm sure I'd have a lot of fun with either a BVM or an Oosthuizen Sabre, or Henk's F1, or an Avonds F-104.
If I go with the larger engine, my Aermacchi goes out the door and I get something like a Eurosport. That's pretty much an even swap cost-wise, even after doing the mods to keep the Eurosport from exploding in mid-air. I then have a choice for my next bird of going a little or a lot more expensive, but every bird will certainly be bigger. Skymaster F-18 would be an option. So would the upcoming X-35 (gotta have one of those!). Even the KingCat is a reasonable option, considering the price of the kit includes both landing gear and fuel tanks.
What made me decide to go turbine is a) upcoming buddy box rule from the AMA, and b) the Arizona Jet Rally. Out there I saw that guys are having WAY more fun with turbines than they had with df. The engine reliability and extra thrust from turbines have justified the additional cost by providing an increased fun quotient. So in the interest of having more fun and not spending so much time fiddling with df, I'm willing to spend more money and go turbine. The question is, how much more do I have to spend to maximize MY fun quotient?
Are big airplanes so much more fun than smaller airplanes that they're really worth their higher costs?
02-06-2004, 09:16 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Flanker,
My opinion only, I would buy a new Simjet 2300 from Ed at Greatnorthern.
Get the Christmas special or better the surplus deal. It will power your
MB339, the F18, any Avond (F15 or nF16) and all of the other big jets.
I have several Simjets and they are super performers and can take a beating.
The price is close to the 1200 if you can get the reduced special price. Another
avenue is to buy the Ram 1000 from Ehab (RCU classified) and a Facet 2300,
all for under $2000 and no additional cost for gear. It will also power your MB339
and any big jet.
Johnny Woods
My opinion only, I would buy a new Simjet 2300 from Ed at Greatnorthern.
Get the Christmas special or better the surplus deal. It will power your
MB339, the F18, any Avond (F15 or nF16) and all of the other big jets.
I have several Simjets and they are super performers and can take a beating.
The price is close to the 1200 if you can get the reduced special price. Another
avenue is to buy the Ram 1000 from Ehab (RCU classified) and a Facet 2300,
all for under $2000 and no additional cost for gear. It will also power your MB339
and any big jet.
Johnny Woods
02-06-2004, 09:28 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
The question is, how much more do I have to spend to maximize MY fun quotient?
The real question should be how much can I afford to lose if I crash it. If it is going to put a serious strain on you to finance a large $6-10K airplane what is going to happen if you crash it? Buy what you can afford fly it and enjoy it. While there is some merit in buying as large an engine that you can for future projects for some folks there is a limitation to how much they can really invest in the hobby, bigger always means more expensive. There is definetly a finite balance between the cost of the engines/airframes, and the value of them. You need to look at the entire airframe as a whole do you really want to stuff a $3K engine into a $500 airframe, and then trust it to a spindly set of $99 retracts that might or might not handle a rough landing or two? GO to the events and watch the guys that are flying a lot watch what they are flying and talk to them and make your choices.
02-07-2004, 05:23 AM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
You should strongly consider a Wren 54 kit engine. They are so simple to put togeather and all servicing is done by you (if it needs any) The standard engines now kick out more than the 12lb stated at the moment, they have a different compressor and inlet which gives it around the 14lb mark.Since I purchased my first wren a couple of yrs ago I now feel confident about servicing all my engines because model turbines no longer feel like a black art that only the elite precision would dare atempt.
Do a search on wren on this forum, theres loads of threads and posts about them and you wont read a bad word
jason
Do a search on wren on this forum, theres loads of threads and posts about them and you wont read a bad word
jason
02-07-2004, 07:39 AM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Right now for the smaller engines I vote for the P-70 from Jetcat. I just did a demo for some people and let anyone who wanted start it in our engine cell. It started and ran perfect every time. It will fit where the Wren, Pst, Fte500 and Ram 500 sized engines will and give 16.5 lbs of thrust.
02-07-2004, 02:59 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
I agree with Jason on this, Wren have changed my whole turbine experience.
Great engines, great company, great service and most of all great value!
And if you want thrust, then order a Supersport, same size a a 54 but 18lbs of thrust!
Check out the Wren of JHH web site.
Great engines, great company, great service and most of all great value!
And if you want thrust, then order a Supersport, same size a a 54 but 18lbs of thrust!
Check out the Wren of JHH web site.
02-07-2004, 05:20 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
David,
A big Plane might not as higher price tag as small plane, especially those new ARF Jet planes. Shopping around you might see good deal for plane and engine combo.
A big Plane might not as higher price tag as small plane, especially those new ARF Jet planes. Shopping around you might see good deal for plane and engine combo.
ORIGINAL: Flanker
If I go with the larger engine, my Aermacchi goes out the door and I get something like a Eurosport. That's pretty much an even swap cost-wise, even after doing the mods to keep the Eurosport from exploding in mid-air. I then have a choice for my next bird of going a little or a lot more expensive, but every bird will certainly be bigger. Skymaster F-18 would be an option. So would the upcoming X-35 (gotta have one of those!). Even the KingCat is a reasonable option, considering the price of the kit includes both landing gear and fuel tanks.
What made me decide to go turbine is a) upcoming buddy box rule from the AMA, and b) the Arizona Jet Rally. Out there I saw that guys are having WAY more fun with turbines than they had with df. The engine reliability and extra thrust from turbines have justified the additional cost by providing an increased fun quotient. So in the interest of having more fun and not spending so much time fiddling with df, I'm willing to spend more money and go turbine. The question is, how much more do I have to spend to maximize MY fun quotient?
Are big airplanes so much more fun than smaller airplanes that they're really worth their higher costs?
If I go with the larger engine, my Aermacchi goes out the door and I get something like a Eurosport. That's pretty much an even swap cost-wise, even after doing the mods to keep the Eurosport from exploding in mid-air. I then have a choice for my next bird of going a little or a lot more expensive, but every bird will certainly be bigger. Skymaster F-18 would be an option. So would the upcoming X-35 (gotta have one of those!). Even the KingCat is a reasonable option, considering the price of the kit includes both landing gear and fuel tanks.
What made me decide to go turbine is a) upcoming buddy box rule from the AMA, and b) the Arizona Jet Rally. Out there I saw that guys are having WAY more fun with turbines than they had with df. The engine reliability and extra thrust from turbines have justified the additional cost by providing an increased fun quotient. So in the interest of having more fun and not spending so much time fiddling with df, I'm willing to spend more money and go turbine. The question is, how much more do I have to spend to maximize MY fun quotient?
Are big airplanes so much more fun than smaller airplanes that they're really worth their higher costs?
02-07-2004, 05:29 PM
#13
RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
The mw54 everytime, good reliable turbine at a good price.
I have been flying my mw54 for two years, first year in a jet1
and all last year in a 5 jet.
I can recomend it.
I have been flying my mw54 for two years, first year in a jet1
and all last year in a 5 jet.
I can recomend it.
02-07-2004, 11:38 PM
#15
RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Flanker,
I've been flying R/C since 1970 and I can say that the turbine flying that I have done in the past year has been one of the most rewarding facets of the hobby that I have experienced. When I decided to get into turbines, I was looking for a 12 pound thrust engine for a scratchbuilt Viggen project that was languishing in my father's basement. This was back when the RAM 500 and Wren MW54 were just about the only engines available in this size. I watched the whole RAM drama unfold and decided to go with the Wren. I thought about an assembled engine but I built a kit and have had a blast! The education that I got with the assembly and tuning is priceless. Just last week, I heard a bearing "whine" and decided to change the bearings...that is MYSELF... and I flew today. I like being able to work on the engine myself and I always have the option of sending it to Wren if need be. As I have stated many times on this forum before, the folks at Wren are second to none when it comes to customer service. And now you can also turn to Jet Hangar Hobbies for assistance and parts as well. If you are in the immediate market for a larger turbine ie; 18, 25, 28+ pound thrust, then spend the bucks and go with Jetcat for a turn-key product. If you can wait a bit for and 18 pound thrust engine then wait for the Wren MW54 Super Sport...I hear that it is one fuel-efficient, good running engine. If you want to discuss the kit- built MW54, feel free to PM me.
Having fun,
John
I've been flying R/C since 1970 and I can say that the turbine flying that I have done in the past year has been one of the most rewarding facets of the hobby that I have experienced. When I decided to get into turbines, I was looking for a 12 pound thrust engine for a scratchbuilt Viggen project that was languishing in my father's basement. This was back when the RAM 500 and Wren MW54 were just about the only engines available in this size. I watched the whole RAM drama unfold and decided to go with the Wren. I thought about an assembled engine but I built a kit and have had a blast! The education that I got with the assembly and tuning is priceless. Just last week, I heard a bearing "whine" and decided to change the bearings...that is MYSELF... and I flew today. I like being able to work on the engine myself and I always have the option of sending it to Wren if need be. As I have stated many times on this forum before, the folks at Wren are second to none when it comes to customer service. And now you can also turn to Jet Hangar Hobbies for assistance and parts as well. If you are in the immediate market for a larger turbine ie; 18, 25, 28+ pound thrust, then spend the bucks and go with Jetcat for a turn-key product. If you can wait a bit for and 18 pound thrust engine then wait for the Wren MW54 Super Sport...I hear that it is one fuel-efficient, good running engine. If you want to discuss the kit- built MW54, feel free to PM me.
Having fun,
John
02-08-2004, 03:40 AM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Mark,
e-mail me your e-mail address, I will tell you more about the new sport jet trainer Draco. I posted a brief introduction under the topic " Now that's a trainer" when a guy asking ARF jet trainer. Someone deleted all of my post. I guess this topic is exclusive belong to the DV8R's only, but not all of new jet trainers. [&o] I think I crossed the border inadvertently. I have to very careful about it now, I don't want my post disappear again.
e-mail me your e-mail address, I will tell you more about the new sport jet trainer Draco. I posted a brief introduction under the topic " Now that's a trainer" when a guy asking ARF jet trainer. Someone deleted all of my post. I guess this topic is exclusive belong to the DV8R's only, but not all of new jet trainers. [&o] I think I crossed the border inadvertently. I have to very careful about it now, I don't want my post disappear again.
ORIGINAL: Woketman
Eric, what's a Draco? Can you describe it or, better yet, a sneak preview photo here? Thanks.
Eric, what's a Draco? Can you describe it or, better yet, a sneak preview photo here? Thanks.
02-08-2004, 10:21 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
cactusflyer,
I'm contemplating buying the unassembled Wren 54 AutoStart for the build and repair experience.
I was wondering, do you know when the SuperSport 54 engines are going to be available and
if they will have an unassembled version?
myersflyers
I'm contemplating buying the unassembled Wren 54 AutoStart for the build and repair experience.
I was wondering, do you know when the SuperSport 54 engines are going to be available and
if they will have an unassembled version?
myersflyers
02-08-2004, 10:35 PM
#18
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Hi, I can second the earlier statements regarding the WREN 54's. I couldnt be happier with mine. For me half the fun was building it (assembling it really). I have a new MKII autostart and am getting a solid 14+pounds at 160 k. I am sure that the super sport will be a great engine. I was resetting some of the parameters on my ecu and while it was "learning" the new settings it over shot to 163500 and the thrust went up to 16.5 pounds for about 5 seconds. All in all a great value and engine
THINK DIFFERENT Scott
THINK DIFFERENT Scott
02-09-2004, 07:09 AM
#19
RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
ORIGINAL: AirPac Models1
I posted a brief introduction under the topic " Now that's a trainer" when a guy asking ARF jet trainer. Someone deleted all of my post. I guess this topic is exclusive belong to the DV8R's only, but not all of new jet trainers. [&o] I think I crossed the border inadvertently. .
I posted a brief introduction under the topic " Now that's a trainer" when a guy asking ARF jet trainer. Someone deleted all of my post. I guess this topic is exclusive belong to the DV8R's only, but not all of new jet trainers. [&o] I think I crossed the border inadvertently. .
Regards,
Edgar
02-09-2004, 06:38 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
I thought the topic was just general knowledge for "any" new trainers. I've only directly responded to those that have questions posted, so I don’t believe I’m breaking any rules in the forum. In fact, the Draco will not be released until Florida Jet. Someone has even asked for pictures on that topic. Since the plane is not available yet, the pictures of our new trainer are also not posted either (Unlike some other companies who have posted the same advertisement pictures as they have on their websites, as just personal posts). We're not trying to break any rules in RCU.
I also believe it's only fair for "all" manufacturers to be able to answer questions about their products. This way everyone will get the necessary information accurately so they can choose a new trainer that is right for them (in the case of " Now that's a trainer"). So they are not just receiving information as advertisement about one particular product under one general topic.
I also believe it's only fair for "all" manufacturers to be able to answer questions about their products. This way everyone will get the necessary information accurately so they can choose a new trainer that is right for them (in the case of " Now that's a trainer"). So they are not just receiving information as advertisement about one particular product under one general topic.
02-09-2004, 07:02 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
My intent in starting this thread was to explore the pros & cons of starting with a small turbine vs. a larger turbine. Discussion of appropriate airframes is part of that topic, but not really what I was after. I'm interested in more posts like MiragePilot's.
While I appreciate the votes of confidence various posters have placed in their favorite turbine brands, I don't need convincing with respect to the quality of Wren vs. JetCat vs. SimJet, etc. I'm interested in the issues of large vs. small turbines. The only aspect of brand selection that I'm worried about right now is availability. For instance (AND THIS IS ONLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION!!) suppose I want to buy a BELCHFIRE 5200, but they're not available for three months, but HERSHEYSQUIRT 300s are available within about three weeks. Working my way through these trades is where I need the help.
I've probably just complicated things too much for any more answers! The point is that I'll be ready to buy within about a month, and I just want to make a good decision.
Other factors to consider: I live about 90 minutes away from JetCat USA, 20 minutes from John Redman; 90 minutes from Jet Hangar Hobbies, multiple thousands of miles from SimJet, AMT, SWB, FTE, BMT, FunSonic, etc. Proximity to JetCat and Wren help might factor into the decision, but I'm not sure how vital that is considering how reliable the major brands have become.
While I appreciate the votes of confidence various posters have placed in their favorite turbine brands, I don't need convincing with respect to the quality of Wren vs. JetCat vs. SimJet, etc. I'm interested in the issues of large vs. small turbines. The only aspect of brand selection that I'm worried about right now is availability. For instance (AND THIS IS ONLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION!!) suppose I want to buy a BELCHFIRE 5200, but they're not available for three months, but HERSHEYSQUIRT 300s are available within about three weeks. Working my way through these trades is where I need the help.
I've probably just complicated things too much for any more answers! The point is that I'll be ready to buy within about a month, and I just want to make a good decision.
Other factors to consider: I live about 90 minutes away from JetCat USA, 20 minutes from John Redman; 90 minutes from Jet Hangar Hobbies, multiple thousands of miles from SimJet, AMT, SWB, FTE, BMT, FunSonic, etc. Proximity to JetCat and Wren help might factor into the decision, but I'm not sure how vital that is considering how reliable the major brands have become.
02-09-2004, 08:20 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Hi Flanker
I would try finding someone that owns and flies all or a combination of the turbines you mention.
Look for an unbiased opinion.
Ask if they could have one, why?
Best of luck in your decision
Johnny
I would try finding someone that owns and flies all or a combination of the turbines you mention.
Look for an unbiased opinion.
Ask if they could have one, why?
Best of luck in your decision
Johnny
02-09-2004, 09:16 PM
#24
RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
Flanker,
you might be thousands of miles away from the AMT factory but you're within driving distance of one of the dudes that have been using AMT engines for a few years. I'd be happy to help with any questions you might have regarding the operation of that line of engine. can't help you with servicing the thing but I can help troubleshoot should that become an issue.
regards,
buck
experience with "Olympus, Pegasus and Mercury" or AT-450, AT-280, AT-180 since 1998.
I also currently own and operate the P-120. good piece of gear.
you might be thousands of miles away from the AMT factory but you're within driving distance of one of the dudes that have been using AMT engines for a few years. I'd be happy to help with any questions you might have regarding the operation of that line of engine. can't help you with servicing the thing but I can help troubleshoot should that become an issue.
regards,
buck
experience with "Olympus, Pegasus and Mercury" or AT-450, AT-280, AT-180 since 1998.
I also currently own and operate the P-120. good piece of gear.
02-09-2004, 09:23 PM
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RE: General Advice for Choosing 1st Turbine
I went through a similar dilema a couple of years ago...big or small? I was definitely woo'ed by the small size turbines that were coming out at the time. However, after I saw them in action, a couple of things influenced my decision:
The little guys turn around 40,000 rpm more at full throttle. You have to be concerned with bearing life. I saw one overspeed and wreck a set of bearings in a single run.
Most, but not all, of the little guys have a noticeable whine in the top end of the RPM range. Personally, I found this sound to be annoying.
So I went with a larger turbine, and dialed the rpm down. Less noise, reasonable fuel consumption, and the bearings will last forever......... (so far, so good)
This leaves my model options wide open...I can go up in size........or down......
Good luck on your decision......
The little guys turn around 40,000 rpm more at full throttle. You have to be concerned with bearing life. I saw one overspeed and wreck a set of bearings in a single run.
Most, but not all, of the little guys have a noticeable whine in the top end of the RPM range. Personally, I found this sound to be annoying.
So I went with a larger turbine, and dialed the rpm down. Less noise, reasonable fuel consumption, and the bearings will last forever......... (so far, so good)
This leaves my model options wide open...I can go up in size........or down......
Good luck on your decision......