The X-1 and X-15 are rocket powered planes not jets. I agree jets are powered by turbines. Our scale ducted fans version of the real thing imitates the turbine. I guess glow ducted fans are like jet skis also. Same type fans just differernt way of spinning the rotor.
Bob

Alright, so I just get back to the states and I have a msg and two emails telling me to "represent". Lmao you guys are killing me. (you guys know who you are.) I've read all the posts and I will tell a quick story before I hit the sack here at the hotel. I'll try to keep this short without the drama.
Along time ago when I was a kid I started flying and competing with remote control helicopters. At the same time I was trying to make just about anything fly using Tamiya 540 can motors. XV-15 tilt rotor, ducted fan jets, Baron28 helicopter, you name it. I also was trying to make a F-16 with a RK-049 fly (remember that one!) I bought it at the swap shop at the WRAM show in 1985. Well eventually I left the RC scene for many years. I would always tell people, that's something I USED to do. Until about 5 years ago. When I went to a local hobbyshop and bought a Kyosho Ducted fan F-16. I was amazed how far technology had come, I was also amazed at the price of these so called "turbines." I remember saying to one individual at that hobby shop "I would never want to fly it!" For a long time I just could not justify it. And then I flew that little thing around for like 4 months (had three of them!) Then I went to this thing called the first "Markham Park jet rally." And with the exception of about 4 guys, it was an all show no go event with everyone standing around looking at their pricey little toys. Everyone was nice to me with the exception of this "Grande hermano." who kept sayin stuff like "that guy has some nerve coming to a jet meet with an electric!" yada yada yada. But it did'nt matter because when those 4 dudes were'nt flying that little red and white EDF was. I may have had more flights than anybody out there that weekend. And when it was all over Sunday afternoon, I received an award for Best military ducted fan. Alot of the comments I received from the crowd that weekend when I would walk through were things like "it's nice to see something that we can afford." etc. etc. Since then I have decided to "justify" what is certainly a very rewarding hobby. But I have to admit that if it were'nt for that little Kyosho and the guys at Markham letting me fly, I probably would have never continued into jets the way I have. Because I found that this group of "jet guys." were really just a great bunch of people who all liked to have fun and were'nt really "exclusive." Even the Big Hermano who drives a "chicken" somewhere found it in him to accept an electric or two.(even though he still won't admit it!)
Now of course I do realize the problems that can arise when flying dissimiler aircraft in the same airspace can pose. (ATC anyone......NOT!) However, I think that we all have to take note that electrics ducted fans are far from what they used to be and many rival if not exceed in some cases the performance of Most propjets, some ducted fans and in the not too distant future some turbine aircraft. I am currently building a scale electric twin ducted fan that should not only be able to exceed 130+ mph but should also have no problem with 1.1+ and 9 minutes on the stopwatch. (staytuned) Of course with the advancements in Li-Polys, coreless motors, etc. This is easily attainable. As far as flying at the same contests, I do think that there may have to be some base guidelines that a CD may have to consider. Some things that come to mind are maybe a weight restriction? For instance most electric jets that weigh 8 to 10lbs or more have enough intertia to maintain at least 80mph due to the wing loading etc. Or in the case of the last big Jet event in Florida, "the scale hour" worked well. Maybe have two or three half hour periods in a day when EDF's could have the sky. I think the technology is right there within months of having some serious electric jets that if nothing else would be a real crowd pleaser at jet shows. When I think back to the birds I've had and how it all started for me, I never forget that little red and white F-16, that's probably the only reason I'm even in jets today.
Well guys, I'm off to bed.

Take Care,
Fly Safe

Bryce

Well here is a video of my "PARK FLYER". It is a 51 1/4" long 34 1/4" span F16 EDF with retracts and sequenced gear doors. It is completely designed and scratch built by ME. It is still under developement. This was the prototype test flight. It weighs 6.7lbs ready to fly. In the video it is flying on a MEDIUM power setup($99 motor and $69 fan). Half of the flight was at HALF throttle. Don't pay any attention to the loitering at show center. The plane is also flying into a 10-12 MPH head wind. The test flight lasted 5 minutes and I had only used 47% of the flight battery capacity. I also have a HIGH power setup ready for installation and testing. This EDF would have flown at Best of the West but a thermal shutdown of the power system caused a dead stick and hard landing. Repairs could not be made in time. I was considering flying it at Dixie Jet Rally in St. George Utah in a couple of weeks.

Future developement was to include a carbon reenforced Wren 44 powered version.

Just for the record I agree that a slow moving aircraft creates problems for fast movers in a low pass. GWS, Kyosho and Wattage EDF's have no place at a Jet Rally except maybe at the half time show. Although they should be represented. The whole idea is to promote the hobby. These manufacturers represent a cheap entry level alternative to the public that just has to have a jet after seeing the turbines fly.

[link=http://tgoodwin.rchomepage.com/F16_oz.rm]Video[/link]

Ted

There is a simple solution. Why don't the Electic Ducted Fan gents start having their own events?

The Electric community is totally missing the point!! It is not about "mine is more expensive that yours" that makes for an interesting arguement based in emotion.
There are precious few fields where turbines are free to roam. There a 2 in San Diego!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both are on military installations. There a only a handful in LA. So when there is a field opened for a few days where the turbines can cut loose with out having the usual constraints it is WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You electric guys can come up with these wonderful arguements that address everything except what is relevant.

SUITABLE AIRSPACE!!!!

You guys have virtually no restraints. You might have a better understanding if you were in our shoes.

Oh I see very clearly now....................................... "mine is more important than yours"

What is it about "being in your shoes" that brings out so much angst and emotion against the EDF guys? What horrible occurrence or despicable act did an EDF plane or pilot commit that has caused so much animosity to come out in the past few days?

I think it's the elitism mentality, some turbine people have an attitude (now I said some not all) that they are "elite" and don't eat from paper plates and drink from foam cups. They pull in with their 150K motorhomes and bring picnic baskets to events with fine china and the best silver utensils along with cucumber sandwiches and steak tata and caviar.

Until some high roller flies an EDF it won't change.

Billybaru,
I think you are wrong. Correct my analysis where you feel it misses YOUR points.

Let me see if I understand your thesis correctly. There are flying fields for Turbines and then there are DIFFERENT flying fields for the rest of the unwashed. Is that about it?

In MY opinion, there are only 3 things that are relevant. First is safety and I have not clue as to why turbines should not be able to fly with other aircraft. They do in rider scale. At events I have attended, there are spotters to help you keep track of others you share the sky with. Beginners have problems keeping track of others in the sky, so I suppose that if you have that problem it would be better if you stayed at your own field. That is the approach to safety I apply to my skills with the various airframes I fly and am astounded that you apparently do not.

The second issue is field ownership. If the turbines guys acquire, build, and maintain the field it is a "Turbine field". If not, then it 'belongs' to everyone in the club. I suggest you review who contributes to the operation of your home turf. Based on observation and experience, I would be willing to bet it is NOT many of the Turbine crowd.

The third issue that is relevant seems to be YOUR reliance on emotions rather than simple factual arguments. The 'suitable airspace' canard does not represent factual arguments since there ARE turbines that can be flown in close and slow and there ARE fast EDF's.

It appears that Gordito Volador is right, the relevance is "mine is more important than yours" rather than anything else reasonably modeling related.

Keep up the good work and you might even be able to scare off a few potential Turbine flyers.

Cheers

BS. I have the RV, the turbine jets and others do too. I've flown EDF and was quite impressed with the performance. Doesn't change that you can fly that thing at an all electric event and I can't fly my Eurofighter.

I've flown Hoser's Kitty Cat, neat airplane. Not nearly as fun to fly as my Turbine F-15. For me anyway. I'll buddy chord Jose next time I see him and we'll let him tell y'all what's more fun...................


I'm out the door to a jet event, y'all have a nice weekend

Sean

I wasn't going to say anything but I think this entire issue is really sad. [] . If there is some safety issue with slower flying planes then these issues should be handled. Someone should then impose rulings that require a certain speed to be maintained in the pattern and/or a special time frame for the slower flying planes. Maybe I'm weird or something but I thought all of us are here for our love of jets, and for years the standard for R/C jet aircraft was the ducted fan, to turn our backs on the ducted fan completely would be a shame. Thats why we have "Jet"events so that Jet lovers of all kinds can join together for fun and brotherhood, if someone wants to have separate turbine, ICDF, and EDF events so be it, this is the United States and no one can tell you other wise. But if the main reason is arrogance or the "elite" factor then I fell sorry for this branch of the hobby.

To me these separate events sounds a lot like the "Separate but equal" laws [:'(] that were in place in the south until the early 1960's .

So just because you fly an aircraft that costs $200, I can't fly a turbine in the air? I don't own either of those two.. but it shouldn't matter the dollar value of aircraft in the sky. If someone owns a couple thousand dollar aircraft, they shouldn't get airborne with it until they are comfortable with the other aircraft in the air at the same moment. Just as you won't jump onto a freeway if they cars are doing 90mph, and you know you'll only do 55 mph to obey the speed limit.

David

Hmm, next you will be whining that they won't let you fly your Eurofighter at a C/L event.

I guess the problem is that you TURBINE guys don't want to say "TURBINE" and demand the right to say "JET". Fine, buy my EDF is also a model of a jet.

As for the 'special time and place' issue, that is one way to solve the 'problem' of the guys on the flight line being totally self centered and unable to accept the direction of a spotter. More experienced fliers do things like work well with 3D folks but beginners have problems with planning where their aircraft is going to be in X seconds. I realize that is not a nice thing to say, but it remains a fact.

I agree, the turbine guys I have observed recently in this forum seem to be of the "separate but equal" variety. So sad.

If it's annoying, it's grounded. Plane takes off and flies one circuit. The announcer says, "OK guys, yeah or nay" All pilots are given a big card that's green on one side and red on the other at registration. If the majority hold up the green side, the plane is allowed to continue, If red, the plane must land within 10 seconds or it gets shot down by a freq tweek. You couldn't use the spectators response because we all know that the typical non-rc spectator would like to see a good crash every minute or so.
Moral of the story...if it's electric, it had better be manly! Maybe if there are 5% edf's at an event. Then they get to fly at a designated time or two that equals 5% of the entire day's flight window.
Example. Say there's 10 hrs. of flying and 100 registered pilots show up. 95 have turbines and 5 have edf's. The edf guys get to fly for one-half hour at 7:30 PM without any annoying turbines in the air at all.

Gosh, I hope my sense of sarcasm is picked up on or I'm gonna be a dead man.

I do have to say though, that it just ain't right to have a small edf in the air when one of the spectacular Yellow Twins is out on a sortie. Just trashes the video. And for that matter, I've had the soundtracks of the most beautiful footage of awesome turbine aircraft completely destroyed and unusable because of a whining ducted fan engine startup in the background, or a buzzing edf's awesome flyby. I know, I know. Go to a private field if you want control of the flightline for your stupid moving pictures shooting and stuff.

We all need to get along. But some more than others.

Hope this didn't clear anything up for you.

Hey where can I get and electric A-4 skyhawk that has a fiberglass fuse....I saw one one one time on the net. I want one to go to the park.



no seriously........I do.

Justin Sands

Billybaru,

As a safety officer (field marshall) at one of the S.D. fields you're referring to, I welcome turbine flyers who keep their common sense about them, and remember that they're not God's gift to R/C. I've even had a turbine waiver CD ask me what a pattern was. Confidence inspiring to be sure.

What I will not accept on my watch, is any pilot who violates safety airspace, flies against the pattern, or flies in a generally unsafe manner, no matter what their powerplant of choice is. This is my duty to our club and our club's promise to the United States Marine Corps.

Want to fly without constraints? You won't have fun at our club. Want to fly safely? You'll have a great time. Your choice.

Daren

Yes, Paul, this was fairly dripping with sarcasm which I got, but you do bring up some relevent points.

When I want clean video, I first walk the line and explain to the other pilots what I have in mind and get their cooperation before I launch, but that's just me.

In the real world of aviation, the slower traffic always has the right of way. In the real world of aviation, it is the pilot's responsibility to see and avoid all other traffic. So, if someone is flying a 200mph plane at the same time as someone else who is flying an 80mph plane, it is the 200mph pilot's responsibility to avoid the 80mph plane.

Granted, there will always be the unexpected, but for the most part, it works.

If I'm attending a meet that has been advertised as open-flying and have paid my attendance fee, I have as much right to the airspace as anyone else there, so I'm flying when I want to and as much as I want to.

If I'm attending a meet with restricted operations, I would certainly hope the fee is similarly reduced to match the reduced opportunities to fly. So, if I'm restricted to flying 30 minutes, then pro-rate the entrant's fee to that percentage, or say something like, $5 for the weekend. (But I still want all my "free" goodies!)

With the recent brush-up between the AMA and jet flyers over the maximum speed limit and max weight/thrust, a call for more rules was the last thing I would've expected to see, but stranger things have happened. Maybe it's just a backlash.

I wouldn't mind a minimum speed limit as long as there is also a willingness to enforce the other rules such as the maximum speed limit and maximum weight and thrust rules.

I don't see how you could enforce a minimum speed without some sort of a timing device such as a radar gun, so as long as you're checking for minimums, check for maximums, too. Same for the weights and max thrust.

Reasonbly accurate scales are not diffifult to obtain, nor are they expensive, so as each plane is brought to the starting station, weigh it while it's full of fuel. If it's over 55 lbs. then it's grounded until such time as it is below the established limit. And if this means that an F/A-18 twin can't fly, then they can't fly.

If that means that the F/A-18 twin with two P120's is producing more than 50 lbs. of thrust static, then it's grounded until it's been detuned to produce less thrust.

Rules is rules, right? What's good for the goat is good for the god.



Dan

Have blue...... what's a High roller ? having $3500 or more in a Electric?
I think we are all looking in the wrong Light, SAFETY should be our main concern.this is the first event that this problem seem to has reared it's head(To my knowledge)
I've been to many "Jet Events" Electric and the Heavy metal can be mixed providing they conform to some rules ie..ROG ,& beable to hold their own in the pattern. At Arizona jets there is an "electric only" flight times 7 to 9 am (local Noise ordinance) & those electric that qualified (NO cat-shots or foamies) can and will play with the heavy iron. At Dixie jet last year Ed,Wade & Marty put on a great electric presentation.
There are a few ex electric flyers who are now on the darkside now, who gave up on the constant problems with the power source (batteries) I bet I still have enough old nicads to fill my own toxic waste dump. I want to still have power left after 6 minutes of flight,with turbines I can,that is prividing I don't brain cramp and auger in. I enjoy seeing the electrics perform & both ED's F18 & Darens Su27 do [8D] On Friday morning I saw the twinjet flying I guessed that someone was warming up as there was not a soul airborne. Daren flew the "Guppy" early Saturday morning. again it was overcast & no one was up. FWIW The Su27 is one of the BEST Kits & steady flyer I've seen .
Semper Fi
Joe

THANKS! Your explanation made so much sense I have decided to go to the same JET event he is just to see if he really does fly!



Actually, I have some significant questions to ask some of the more reasonable pilots who happen to be turbine guys, and I was invited. Don't want to spend a lot of $ and get the wrong 'bits' for my toys.

Maybe I can do some touch and goes under him in my Kyosho T-33, cat shot and all.

BTW, your remarks about tainting the video and audio recording speak volumes to the ego thing.

O.K. I'll chime in.[8D]

How things have changed in just the past few years. I remember clearly when everyone at the big events ( Superman / Florida Jets ) were doing 150 mph in VERY large racetrack circuits. I often scratched my head in bewilderment at this exercise as I am sure many of the jet guys did not fly like this at their home fields. But rules were rules and guys abided by the large racetrack " way out pattern". Lets skip to 2003 -Superman, KingCats, BobCats, Eurofighters are no longer engaged in mach / long distance circuits. Rather their they sit - front and show center. Hmmm I says - interesting - must be the new way to do things or maybe just a glitch? Nope - Florida Jets 2004 - the new way to fly - all front and show center - slow flight / reversals against traffic. Wow - a mid air waiting to happen! But not between little vs big - nope, all these guys were flying big stuff. In my opinion, it no longer matters if there are slow or fast stuff as 3D slow flight is the newest / exciting aspect to jet modeling. Time to rethink the jet events boys! Get with the new technology! As CD of the Princeton B.C. Jet Rally I know I'll be scratching my head a bit prior to the event. Enjoy!

Dean Wichmannn
www.helijet.ca

Lets Just Call them Turbine Powered Event!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDF are cool but I would prefer they fly in a different window.

My 2 Cents

Ian

Cost is relative. If a guy only makes $10K a year and crashes his $600 airplane he has lost just as much as a guy that has spent $6000 on a jet and makes $100K a year. And I know a most people who fly R/C airplanes make more than 10K a year, but the point remains the same cost and time are a relative factor. Just because you have $6k in an airplane and I have $1500 doesn't mean that you had to make a bigger sacrifice to get what you have, several times its most likely the other way around. And for this reason several people are calling jet flyers with these ideas "elitist" .

If you want a turbine powered only event go ahead. The south tried "separate but equal" and it did not work. Maybe in today’s society there is still a place for it, seems like a lot of those old ideas are creeping back up into mainstream with much acceptance. Funny how all other sectors have opened up to allow turbines, and now turbines are trying to discriminate against it’s own modeling roots. Its OK to fly a turbine at a warbird meet if its a scale jet that was used in the military. And I know of a few "scale" meets that have invited sport jets to fly the half time show. I hear in this thread all of the time how the AMA is "picking" on turbines, now, the turbines what to pick on their own heritage. SAD SAD[&o]

The pic says it all.............

Mugenkidd,
I give my son one or two points when ever he does something out of the ordinary that is good. I am trying to guide him into doing things that are remarkable to others and he seems to be going that way. I have promised him something special when the total gets to be 100. In other words, points are only awarded for something really special because his total is not very high.

Your comments deserve two points sir. That was very well said, thank you.

$3,500 for an electric, that's possible not common but it all adds up doesn't it? Especially when you can get $1,000 in lipolys to make a larger plane fly. When I say "High Roller" that's the turbine guys that fly $15,000 to $25,000 Twin Turbine powered models. The day BVM makes an EDF specific jet, it's only a matter of time as JHH is doing it. Things will change, or should I say attitudes will be adjusted.

two points and a............

I don't know if I think an EDF ONLY event is a good idea. We should have a "Jet" rally that is oriented towards EDF and if any of the turbine guys that don't have major attitudes want to fly then so be it. We should be the more adult and rational of the groups. Not by stomping our feet and jumping up and down and yelling "NO TURBINES!" and attacking people online because they have a different view than ours. There was a certain post that asked “what has six legs and eats poop” that comes to mind. This is what is happening in this forum and it is a shame that a few spoiled little boys that always got their way as a kid will give the entire turbine community a bad name. It is funny that the turbine community is raising so much noise. Especially after Sept 11. If I recall most of the high powered rocketry got shutdown and they do not even have command control guidance. All they are lacking is an on board video link for BVR control? Oh wait they are already doing that. Maybe there should be registration requirements for turbines like for handguns and cars? All very deadly weapons if put into the wrong hands. That would be a VERY SAD day but not all that far fetched. You would think that they would be trying to keep turbine operations low key and portray the hobby in as posative lite as possible. They make quotes like "better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to speak your mind and remove all doubt" and "there is no crying in rc jets". Yet the very same people are the ones removing all doubt and crying the loudest. I was watching a comedian one time up on stage. He was going through his routine when he says "this one is for the stupid people in the room....you know who you are....maybe you don't know who you are...." I really had planned on building a Wren 44 powered version of my F16 project and I may still. Do I want to hang out with the turbine crowd? Not from what I have seen in this forum. Turbines are cool. Maybe turbine pilots aren't? EDF's are cool and from my experience so are the pilots. I would think that the turbine pilots would like the easy no hassle operation of the higher power EDF's when they don't want to hassle with turbine operations for maybe a flight after work or when the very limited turbine facilities are not available as stated above but some of them are so stuck on themselves that they can't see that. Man makes the turbines. The turbines don’t make the man. Again "maybe they don't know who they are"? I guess there are a few in every crowd. Lately it seems like there is one on every corner. But then again maybe I myself am removing all doubt? You be the judge. It is a shame we all can’t just get along.

This is just my opinion. Take it for what its worth. If you don't like it then state yours and we will agree to disagree!

Ted