radios locking out !!!
06-07-2004, 11:53 AM
#1
radios locking out !!!
Lately, i have heard a lot of peoples radios locking out, or jittering !! I had a yellow p-38 go into failsafe and crash, a friend lost a nice p51 whn his radio went nuts, and i have seen other planes jitter and take hits a lot more often than what i see typically .. Also another friends turbine heli possibly locked out this past weekend and crashed .. I have been seeing a lot moreposts on failsafe lockouts and jitters also ...
a friend started doing some research into this, ad found out that there has been a very high level of solar activity lately (solar flares, sunspots , etc ) Solar radiation has had a definate impact on radio communications and functions in full size aviation, and definately can affect us !!! , this can really suck !
anyone have any input on this topic ?? ( out to all you NASA dudes
)
Wojtek
a friend started doing some research into this, ad found out that there has been a very high level of solar activity lately (solar flares, sunspots , etc ) Solar radiation has had a definate impact on radio communications and functions in full size aviation, and definately can affect us !!! , this can really suck !
anyone have any input on this topic ?? ( out to all you NASA dudes
) Wojtek
06-07-2004, 12:35 PM
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RE: radios locking out !!!
Ya!
Eddie Weeks chim in please, is there anyway to tell before flying to tell if the sun flares are high and maybe not a good day to fly?
William
Eddie Weeks chim in please, is there anyway to tell before flying to tell if the sun flares are high and maybe not a good day to fly?
William
06-07-2004, 01:07 PM
#7
RE: radios locking out !!!
so its better to fly at night..... away from the solar flares
as for http://www.sec.noaa.gov/SWN/ that looks cool, and to tell you the truth, i will check it before i fly (myu field has WEB access
compliments of www.uflyhobbies.com ) Wojtek
06-07-2004, 05:34 PM
#11
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RE: radios locking out !!!
The original Isobar was lost to a lock-out with a Futaba 9Z years ago. I found out a few days later (Bill Meador of Mississippi realized it) that the weekend the Isobar fail-safed was the maximum solar activity in something like five years or so (I think it was near the peak of the 11 year solar cycle). I always suspected I got shot down by Sol, but will never know. It does provide a great excuse at a fly in to run down the flight line screaming "The sun is on my frequency!!!!" [X(]
06-07-2004, 08:18 PM
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RE: radios locking out !!!
How come the sun spot stuff don't show up on a frequency scanner.. ?
Eddie Weeks
btw.. I can't even forecast yesterdays weather..
Eddie Weeks
btw.. I can't even forecast yesterdays weather..
06-07-2004, 08:59 PM
#14
RE: radios locking out !!!
I have a client who has 5 warehouses all connecting via 54mb wireless data links, ranging from 2000" to 5 miles distance (based on the current 802.11 standards [cmda]), and today i hear that reacently they have been reporting a lot more packed drops that is usual (actually, several hundred more times as usual) ... ethernet inherintly will retransmit the lost packets, so users saw no diference, just the counters on the tx units themselves did ... this could also be an indication of a related cause as that of our planes fall9ing out of the sky ....
http://www.modelavionics.com/images/...ys_crop_th.jpg
i hope we see this soon !!! i understand it will also run spread spectrum as a lot of the wifi devices do ... maybe Cisco WIll make my next tx module
I had seen a RC heli operated once using WiFi (802.11 ethernet) on the RX, and on the TX module. I think logically we will go that route eventually with all RC control... here is what i see the advantages if a 802.11 based system
- bidirectional data transfer: since controll data would be connection orriented and packet based, the RX on the aircraft would have to facilitate return ack traffic anyway, so this return TX path could be used to telemetery data and video as well .... asuming a guaranteed 1/2mb per plane, thats some good video ! (802.11 is contention based, so basically the more planes up, the less bandwidth, but we would be talking of splitting up anywhere from 11 - 54 MB or more between no more than what ? 10 people at once ? also a return pipe could transmit the currnet signal strength detected by the RX at that time ..
- no frequency issues ... i dont think the overhead of IP encapsulation would make sense (hmmm maybe return traffic needed [ udp style ?? ] ) but if each radio now had a MAC address, thats unique across the globe ... , so basically turn on, and the radios would sort things out themselves
- PC uplinks nd field upgrades ... with WI fi, you could bring your plane near your house, turn it on, and program it from you PC (asuming propper software) .. or if there is a hot spot at the field , you could load program updates, or even web cast your flight ...
- stronger signal strength ... i believe that within the current standards, we would be allowed to transmit a lot stronger of a signal, hopefully forcing our way through any interference such as solar radiation, or some thief tryign to hit wire a car ...
i think in the future we will see some of this in our RC hobby , and there are some great things we can do with this !!
Wojtek
http://www.modelavionics.com/images/...ys_crop_th.jpg
i hope we see this soon !!! i understand it will also run spread spectrum as a lot of the wifi devices do ... maybe Cisco WIll make my next tx module
I had seen a RC heli operated once using WiFi (802.11 ethernet) on the RX, and on the TX module. I think logically we will go that route eventually with all RC control... here is what i see the advantages if a 802.11 based system
- bidirectional data transfer: since controll data would be connection orriented and packet based, the RX on the aircraft would have to facilitate return ack traffic anyway, so this return TX path could be used to telemetery data and video as well .... asuming a guaranteed 1/2mb per plane, thats some good video ! (802.11 is contention based, so basically the more planes up, the less bandwidth, but we would be talking of splitting up anywhere from 11 - 54 MB or more between no more than what ? 10 people at once ? also a return pipe could transmit the currnet signal strength detected by the RX at that time ..
- no frequency issues ... i dont think the overhead of IP encapsulation would make sense (hmmm maybe return traffic needed [ udp style ?? ] ) but if each radio now had a MAC address, thats unique across the globe ... , so basically turn on, and the radios would sort things out themselves
- PC uplinks nd field upgrades ... with WI fi, you could bring your plane near your house, turn it on, and program it from you PC (asuming propper software) .. or if there is a hot spot at the field , you could load program updates, or even web cast your flight ...
- stronger signal strength ... i believe that within the current standards, we would be allowed to transmit a lot stronger of a signal, hopefully forcing our way through any interference such as solar radiation, or some thief tryign to hit wire a car
... i think in the future we will see some of this in our RC hobby , and there are some great things we can do with this !!
Wojtek
06-07-2004, 10:23 PM
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RE: radios locking out !!!
Wojtek:
Interesting thought, but I believe not a factor for our R/C stuff........my buddy and I run 2 ham radio repeaters here in town, one on 220 Mhz and another on 440 Mhz......both run digital data as well as voice......there was a small flare early last week......no effect on data transfer.....even the huge flare of 1989 didn't affect us......
Fortunately, we have the ionosphere to protect us......But.......3 things that can get screwed up are satellites, above the ionosphere, where the components such as ICs can get fried, Secondly, skip communications, limited to the HF band, much of which is used by Amateurs and Commercial Broadcast From about 500 Hz up to about 100 Mhz.....the flare screws up the ionosphere leading to more absorption of the ground signal and decrease in the skip signal strenth, and thirdly, long wire grids such as used in electrical distribution(like the Canadian Grid that got fried in 1989) and the newer wire networks.....the immense length of these wires, actually antennas, can absorb allot of energy which our little 39" RX cannot......
Bottom line is that terrestial line of site communications, like our R/C sets, either in the HF, VHF, or UHF portions of the EM spectrum should not be affected, unless they take a hit sufficient to fry an IC.....If that happens while you are in the same space as your Tranny, better head for a lead lined shelter, cuz it also will be frying your brain, big time.......definitely could happen to astronauts operating above the ionosphere, but not down here......
With the most recent demise of the Kramer's KC, I haven't heard if it really was a Failsafe lockout......could it have been a RX failure, battery failure, switch failure?.......if it truly was a Failsafe, what did the output of the Tranny look like?....Was there a range check done just before this flight?.....David Reid landed his Phantom at MAB with a suddent zero voltage on his Lith Tranny pack.......weird things happen to TX......my 10X would work fine on 9 of the 10 models programmed....only on model 3, after having it on for about 10 minutes, it would start sending an invalid data train and Failsafe my RX.......was so weird, Horizon sent it back to Japan for analysis, and sent me a new TX.....
I still believe in Occam's Razor analysis.....always look for the simplest explanation......it's usually the right one.....
Tom
Interesting thought, but I believe not a factor for our R/C stuff........my buddy and I run 2 ham radio repeaters here in town, one on 220 Mhz and another on 440 Mhz......both run digital data as well as voice......there was a small flare early last week......no effect on data transfer.....even the huge flare of 1989 didn't affect us......
Fortunately, we have the ionosphere to protect us......But.......3 things that can get screwed up are satellites, above the ionosphere, where the components such as ICs can get fried, Secondly, skip communications, limited to the HF band, much of which is used by Amateurs and Commercial Broadcast From about 500 Hz up to about 100 Mhz.....the flare screws up the ionosphere leading to more absorption of the ground signal and decrease in the skip signal strenth, and thirdly, long wire grids such as used in electrical distribution(like the Canadian Grid that got fried in 1989) and the newer wire networks.....the immense length of these wires, actually antennas, can absorb allot of energy which our little 39" RX cannot......
Bottom line is that terrestial line of site communications, like our R/C sets, either in the HF, VHF, or UHF portions of the EM spectrum should not be affected, unless they take a hit sufficient to fry an IC.....If that happens while you are in the same space as your Tranny, better head for a lead lined shelter, cuz it also will be frying your brain, big time.......definitely could happen to astronauts operating above the ionosphere, but not down here......
With the most recent demise of the Kramer's KC, I haven't heard if it really was a Failsafe lockout......could it have been a RX failure, battery failure, switch failure?.......if it truly was a Failsafe, what did the output of the Tranny look like?....Was there a range check done just before this flight?.....David Reid landed his Phantom at MAB with a suddent zero voltage on his Lith Tranny pack.......weird things happen to TX......my 10X would work fine on 9 of the 10 models programmed....only on model 3, after having it on for about 10 minutes, it would start sending an invalid data train and Failsafe my RX.......was so weird, Horizon sent it back to Japan for analysis, and sent me a new TX.....
I still believe in Occam's Razor analysis.....always look for the simplest explanation......it's usually the right one.....
Tom
06-07-2004, 10:52 PM
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RE: radios locking out !!!
OK let's don't all get crazy here... [sm=sunsmiley.gif] Everyone with a Jet Cat can check the failsafe counter... a few doesn't mean much, but an aircraft with over 10 hits per flight has RF link problems. Zero fail-safes is the norm.. Everyone talking about lock outs tells me not many of you set any of your flight surfaces to fail-safe. Doing so will help you detect airborne glitches usually before you'll see a hold.. Is everyone setting the throttle to a proper fail-safe shutdown??
The aircraft having these problems are great candidates for the "Real Range Check." Doing a proper range check and fixing a short check... goes a long way to solving the glitch problem. Most major Radio manufactures recommendations for acceptable distances for a range check are the very minimum. With a little tuning and alignment and or installation tweaks you can easily double the manufactures bare-bones minimum. If you can't get 300 feet with either the JR10X (ant removed) or a Futaba 9Z (fully collapsed) series radio you are flying with a less than ideal RF link! Of course the "Real Range Check" requires antenna fully extended checks, something most of us just don't want to do.
Now for the Sun spot bull... [sm=sunsmiley.gif] Why didn't every model airborne have lockouts or glitches? Don't give these manufactures another line to add to their excuse list....it's hard enough to get a good tight RF link / service as it is! At the margin good, better, and best receivers do help... tuning sensitivity, selectivity and sideband signal rejection being very important. But an even bigger problem is the generally low transmitter output. Tight receivers help, but the best tuned receiver receiving a weak transmitter signal is sooner or later going to have problems.
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
The aircraft having these problems are great candidates for the "Real Range Check." Doing a proper range check and fixing a short check... goes a long way to solving the glitch problem. Most major Radio manufactures recommendations for acceptable distances for a range check are the very minimum. With a little tuning and alignment and or installation tweaks you can easily double the manufactures bare-bones minimum. If you can't get 300 feet with either the JR10X (ant removed) or a Futaba 9Z (fully collapsed) series radio you are flying with a less than ideal RF link! Of course the "Real Range Check" requires antenna fully extended checks, something most of us just don't want to do.
Now for the Sun spot bull... [sm=sunsmiley.gif] Why didn't every model airborne have lockouts or glitches? Don't give these manufactures another line to add to their excuse list....it's hard enough to get a good tight RF link / service as it is! At the margin good, better, and best receivers do help... tuning sensitivity, selectivity and sideband signal rejection being very important. But an even bigger problem is the generally low transmitter output. Tight receivers help, but the best tuned receiver receiving a weak transmitter signal is sooner or later going to have problems.
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
06-07-2004, 11:09 PM
#21
RE: radios locking out !!!
to clear up about the solar flares , its suposedly not our RC equipment that these afect directly, but the interference that they cause with other electronic devices (TX equipment in particular such as radio stations, cell towers, etc .. ) then causes those devices to dirty up our frequencies .... I have also heard that sprinkler systems of a certain manufaturer screw with our RC TX/RX also ... even though the system does not TX anything ...
all i know, is i lost a $4500 Yellow P-38 (and i had just bought it !!! ) , a friend lost a AV8R, and another lost a nice P-51 ... all because of radio lock out or glitching ! , i hae also seen other planes glittch a lot lately .. all this is on aircraft and systems that have to date been for the most part flawles in operation ....
Now I feel like ****tting a load every time i send a few grand up in the sky .... because now im concerned that no matter how thoroughly im set up, or how good of a pilot i am, i might still get fuched !!!
Wojtek
all i know, is i lost a $4500 Yellow P-38 (and i had just bought it !!! ) , a friend lost a AV8R, and another lost a nice P-51 ... all because of radio lock out or glitching ! , i hae also seen other planes glittch a lot lately .. all this is on aircraft and systems that have to date been for the most part flawles in operation ....
Now I feel like ****tting a load every time i send a few grand up in the sky .... because now im concerned that no matter how thoroughly im set up, or how good of a pilot i am, i might still get fuched !!!
Wojtek
06-07-2004, 11:12 PM
#22
RE: radios locking out !!!
I experienced my first, what I believe was interference, a few weeks ago.
I fly JR 945's and never a hint of interference til then.
I fly JR 945's and never a hint of interference til then.
and thats what me and several people i know are saying also ......
if its not the sunspots, then i think all the bitter old farts who never fly but complain (while singing odes of joy to the AMA) have united together in a secret conspiracy to shoot anything down that is not a TelemasterSR or an Avistar !!!!
Wojtek
06-08-2004, 07:35 AM
#23
RE: radios locking out !!!
It IS strange that these hits have occurred recently, I had one, my first for many many years, three weeks ago (JR 1000 rx previous performance flawless like all my other JR equipment) another friend with a 9 channel JR rx, previous operation flawless also had one last week at Sale. In my cases the glitch logger recorded a massive hit and my friends Jetcat ECU showed the failsafe shutdown, but our equipment now checks out perfectly. Perhaps it is coincidence but, as Wojtek says it sure dents the confidence. Is not KNOWING for sure exactly what caused the problem that is so disconcerting.
Regards, David Gladwin.
Regards, David Gladwin.
06-08-2004, 07:59 AM
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RE: radios locking out !!!
OH OH......the SKY IS FALLING! OR maybe it's a conspiracy as Wojtek and a few others lately believe.
My tranny pack had a bad cell in it. Since replaced and working fine. Although rather scary when I THOUGHT i had redundancy built into the Duralite pack (I now do with a 6 cell pack)
David Reid landed his Phantom at MAB with a suddent zero voltage on his Lith Tranny pack.......weird things happen to TX