Tim Redelman

My Feedback: (36)

Got this today from the AMA.


Engine Shutdown During Out of Control Emergencies

The failure to shutdown a turbine powered model in an out of control emergency can create an extremely unsafe situation. In an effort to improve safety and avoid unsafe situations the AMA is emphasizing the importance of engine shutdown during out of control emergencies. All turbine pilots should review the following safety guidelines in conjunction with AMA's turbine regulations and we ask that CDs go over these issues during the pilot meetings at their events.

All turbine powered models must have their radio/ECU programmed to either bring the engine to idle or preferably to shut down within 2 seconds of failsafe.

All pilots must shut their engine down immediately upon onset of an out of control emergency. That is, the pilot must shut the engine down immediately upon losing control of the aircraft prior to any efforts to save the aircraft. This greatly reduces the chance of a fire in the event of a crash.

Pilots should not push their models past the model's proven limits. If the manufacturer states a max velocity then do not exceed the published max velocity. At no time should any turbine model be flown faster than 200 mph.

The jet pilot community must work to ensure safety at all costs. Please adhere to these procedures and work to ensure that all turbine powered aircraft are operated in the safest manner possible.

This Safety Announcement was developed by the Jet Pilots Organization (JPO) and AMA appreciates the support SIGs (Special Interest Groups) show when it comes to safety matters.



Academy of Model Aeronautics
Special Services Department

rpmtech

My Feedback: (6)

Man, sure glad they are there to give us that advice.

So be sure if your radio locks you out and you have ZERO control to manually kill the engine.

I dont think it is a good idea to set your ECU to cut the engine if it goes into a momentary failsafe. That sounds like a disaster when 1.5 seconds later it goes out of failsafe and you have to auger in someplace because you cant make the runway. I think setting it to idle is the thing to do.

Besides if you loose it and crash in a few seconds, what difference really would it make if it was in the progress of shutting down, or spooling down to idle?

Having to crash land someplace deadstick whith full control would be a bummer[&o]

Regardless each has it's own problems, either risk crashing with a idling engine, or probably crash BECAUSE the engine was set to cut, and you had control back.

Just my opinion, would definately like to hear you other guy's

grbaker

My Feedback: (29)

The chance of fire is greatly reduced if the engine is shut down as opposed to idling. I've had to fight a fire that was caused by my crashed jet and even though it was a fairly smalll fire, any thing I can do to reduce that risk.....I will do. All of mine are programmed to shut down.

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

If the flame is out when the airplane crashes you cut the chances of a crash fire down greatly. The AMA recommends the engine to be shutdown within 2 seconds on failsafe, effective January 1, 2005 it will be mandatory for every ECU to kill the engine within 2 seconds of going into failsafe. If you are fighting an airplane to keep it flying and a crash is imminent it is the most important thing you can do.

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

I think imminent is a great word to use in this case. How many times have you been flying and lost control for a split second just to regain and continue flying? I will shut the motors down when there is no chance my plane will recover, not immediately after a little bobble.

SoppyJoe

My Feedback: (59)

I don't think that this implies a "failsafe condition". I'm sure the AMA is aware of the fact, that if we go into lock-out, unless signal is regained, we do have zero control.

For the safety of myself and fellow pilots at the field, if/when my jet goes into failsafe and shuts down and I do regain control, I would rather perform a dead stick landing in the middle of the field, than have my airplane hit the ground, who knows where, with the motor turning 160,000 rpms and 2 or more liters of fuel board.

For me, an emergency situation could be something as simple as the landing gear not coming down....or as bad as a wing folding in flight, and these are areas where we do have control to shut the turbine down, and are probably wise to do so.

Fly Fast, Fly SAFE!
Just my 2 cents worth!
Joey.

basimpsn

My Feedback: (5)

I think its very important to program fail safe to shut down your engine. Mine is programmed to shut down my engine and drop my landing gear as a clear indication of problems ahead. losing a wing in flight is a good enough cause to RADIO shut down your engine.

In another case when the rear stab broke off my friends viper jet with servo attach at F/J 2004. Was I being wreckless by not shutting down the engine. Because in this emergency case there was a 10/1 chance of bringing it back in one piece??? Or kind of one piece . I realize that part of saving that plane was sheer luck and the rest was skill, so for future reference what should I do in a situation like this - Per AMA law?

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

Good post Joey..... I agree 100%. And YES, fire chance is GREATLY reduced with engine off as opposed to idle.
This reference is to emergency flight problems, not radio lockout (since properly programmed failsafe will shut the engine down). Their point is, in the event of a flight emergency shut the engine down then make your efforts to save the plane. Safety first guys...... Thats what's going to keep this hobby alive!

Todd

be005182

Exist co2 cannisters and mechanism( with some homemade pin similar to the pitot tube) to let escape the content . That could be installed in the nose section of the plane . So if nose down crash the co2 will be injected straight in engine to produce a forced flame-out , only when all is shut down. Good idea?
Jacques
Belgium

JeffH

My Feedback: (43)

"In another case when the rear stab broke off my friends viper jet with servo attach at F/J 2004. Was I being wreckless by not shutting down the engine. Because in this emergency case there was a 10/1 chance of bringing it back in one piece??? Or kind of one piece . I realize that part of saving that plane was sheer luck and the rest was skill , so for future reference what should I do in a situation like this - Per AMA law? "

In this case, I think you were in the right. As David put it, the plane was not in the realm of an "imminent" crash. Now if you didn't have any control over it, I am sure you would have shut the engine down and prepared to rush to the crash site. In fact, in my opinion, you saved a potential crash/fire. What if you did just give up when the stab departed...The plane would have surely crashed then, and possibly started a fire, engine running or not.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

This might make the decision to comply easier:

You go in, it catches on fire. What exactly from that wreckage are you hoping will go into your next jet?

It's a no brainer, kill the engine by any means possible. It could save you thousands of dollars, and save the rest of us the headache of another "risky rc jet" issue.

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

I disagree, an airplane shedding such critical parts as the stab, or any control surfaces, shut it down then try to recover the airplane. Sorry BA you got lucky and other parts making it more uncontrolable did not let go. As it was you were able to land it, had the engine been shut off you also could probably have landed it without putting anyone else at risk. It's a diffucult decision but one we should all be able to make. Retracts not coming down don't necessarily fall under this same category but, I fell pretty certain I would cut my engine on final in that case.

tomcatter91

you know i can see where this has its good points and its bad but heres something to think about. you lose control, your turbine shuts down, you crash and boom a fire starts not because the engine is running but from the electrical system arking from the crash. fires can be caused by alot of things even a hot cowling. Ive been a firefighter for almost 12 years now and have only been on 1 house fire caused by an rc jet. the guy lost control, shut everything down, turbine ect.. but there was still a fire caused by his battery pack causing an ark. its funny that gas and jet fuel doesnt burn but the fumes sure as hell will and believe me whole heartedly i hope that no one here ever crashes and burns and even with all of the rules and precautions we take its gonna happen sometime.

Just my 2 cents


I await my hazing.
SL

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

So when and where did this happen??

tomcatter91

it happened 2 years ago. in summerfield north carolina

KXH121

My Feedback: (20)

Tomcatter,
Without side stepping the valid safety concern expressed here, come fly with us at Laurinburgh/Maxton, the nearest house is 3 miles away, pretty isolated area. I also fly at the airfield at Camp Mackall where I am stationed (35 miles west of Ft Bragg). It is a little more restricted as far as access, but is now open on the weekends with the nearest civilization 6 miles away and a fully manned 24 hour fire station at the airfield. Just thought I would let you know.

Immediate shutdown is on my setup BTW.

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

How about a little more detail? I would think that a structure fire casued by an RC jet would have brought considerably more attention, especially from the AMA.


On a further note, the hot cowling, or hot engine might cause a fire, but the the chances are SIGNIFICANTLY reduced when you get rid of the flame (ie shut the thing down!), battery pack fires on impact are relatively few as well, compared to the incidence of fire when the engine is not shut down. Ray Davis did some pretty significant experimenting a couple of years ago with this issue and found he could mist raw fuel on the front, or even into the intake of his engine running and just after shutdown, and the only time it flamed is when it was still running. I recall him saying he sprayed a fine mist of fuel onto the hot tailpipe and only got smoke with no flames when the engine had been shut down.

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

Tomcatter:

The topic of fire upon crash has had multiple long threads in the past, including most recently during the recent rules revision period late last year and earlier this year.......

While fires caused by battery packs are possible, as are fires caused by sparks from frictiion of a plane hitting asphalt or concrete, they are most remote when compared to turbine-induced fires.....

After witnessing probably 25 fires after crashes during the last 5 years at Jet Meets, essentially all of them were started by running engines........I have done a little experimenting similar to what Ray Davis has done while setting up a smoke system, and it's very difficult to get kero to light off unless you inject or it gets sucked into the compressor, and that capability stops within 2-3 seconds after the engine shuts down with the rapidly dropping EGT......as with any liquid or gasesous combustible, you need the right mixture to light it off......spraying raw fuel on the hot tail cone while the engine is running will not light off in my experience, just mucho smoke.....That's the rationale behind the 2005 AMA rule requiring 2 second mandatory ECU commanded shut-down in the event of either a failsafe condition or a RX failure due to battery, switch, or RX failure, since in failsafe and RX failure, the pilot has no control......

Deciding when to manually shut down during a structural failure is always gonna be a judgement call.....my buddy Dave Elsinger had one of the 2 elevon servo mounts break loose on his Eurofighter at Superman last year...suddenly flying with one elevon and rudder only....very squirrely.....he is a skilled pilot and was able to milk it back to a bouncy but otherwise safe landing, but all the time I had my fingers next to the aux 4 knob on his TX just in case.....


Tom

Shok

My Feedback: (28)

It's hard to make yourself shut the engine down, because you hope for the best.
When my plane went into a spin out of a turn, it was still pretty high up. For a moment I thought it would recover, then it stopped and kicked back into the other direction, giving me that sickning feeling knowing thats it. I hit the trim and heard that shutdown and then a thud.
So glad I got it shutdown, it was only 3 minutes into the flight and was loaded with fuel.

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

I second David's reply. Where's the additional detail on that North Carolina fire?

JET FX

Jacques, I think this is what you are referring to, the TFSU Turbine Fire Suppression Unit made by GT-MAXX. It is an on board servo operated Co2 fire extinguisher, its been commercially available from us and GT-Maxx about 18 months.

tomcatter91

i will see if i still have a copy of the newpaper article and post it here. Im not against what you guys are saying about shutting down everything. Im just stating that its not always a running turbine that can cause the fire. As for the house fire, it was a 14 year old kid that didnt know what he was doing. He took out his dads new toy for a little spin of his own, lost control, shutdown the plane, while he was doing that he flew it into his own house. Just because the AMA doesnt know about it doesnt mean it didnt happen. Guess if i flew a model rocket into my house and caused a house fire i would run and tell the model rocketry association about it, dont think so. i wouldnt want to be a laughing stock at the expense of a mistake. Believe what you want to believe or not doesnt matter to me because i was there.The whole time we were on scene the kid kept telling us it was an accident and his dads gonna kill him.The stations chief did the investigation along with an arson investigator and they both determined that the fire was cause by a spark from an exposed battery pack wire and leaking fuel. I understand what your saying about the hot cowling and the friction factor but even with gasoline you can take and throw a lit cigarette in it and nothing will happen IF your fast enough but if not look out "been there done that". Fires can be caused by alot of things but as long as there is Air, Heat, Fuel its gonna burn. KXH, thanks for the invite i will contact you about that when my next project is finished.

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

The story gets better and better, you said it was an RC Jet earlier, was it an RC jet or not? Was this kid attempting flight with it? I know a bunch of the North Carolina jet guys who was it?

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

Who's saying we don't believe you? Just asking for detail, that's all. More details please.

tomcatter91

First off David. If you had read the post correctly i wouldnt be here correcting you now. it was a TURBINE. I was using the" model rocket" as an example on the AMA not knowing about it, guess i should have use a plane instead. As a matter of fact i believe if you look again you will see i said "while he was shutting down the plane" . It was a 14 year old kid and yes he was trying to fly it, hince the term "taking his dads new toy for a spin". The kids name was Shawn "not going to give out last names" the plane belonged to his father Claxton. Neither one are AMA members but i know that Claxton is still flying turbines. As for your "the story gets better and better" like i said before believe what you want or not doesnt matter to me , I was there and unfortunately you werent so i guess if you want to find out more your going to have to wait until i can find the article and post it.