Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
07-12-2002, 02:13 AM
#1
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Frank Wolfer, Silas Seandal, and I, we all went out to FBF on Wednesday to put a little stick time on our ducted fans.
Frank had one of those JHH ARF Hawks. Notice I use the past tense. This is Wolfman's first jet, and he's a sort of yank-and-bank kind of pilot, not really subtle on the sticks.
First flight, the thing takes off beautifully, trims out with a few clicks, and is off and running. He does a couple of passes around the field, then goes up high and pulls a split s. He pulls out way too hard, it snaps, recovers pointing straight down, he snaps it again, and WHAM. Straight down onto the pavement...
Frank had one of those JHH ARF Hawks. Notice I use the past tense. This is Wolfman's first jet, and he's a sort of yank-and-bank kind of pilot, not really subtle on the sticks.
First flight, the thing takes off beautifully, trims out with a few clicks, and is off and running. He does a couple of passes around the field, then goes up high and pulls a split s. He pulls out way too hard, it snaps, recovers pointing straight down, he snaps it again, and WHAM. Straight down onto the pavement...
07-12-2002, 02:27 AM
#2
Continued...
Frank's a sport, he immediatly dials up Larry Wolfe, whips out his platinum card, and a new Hawk is on the way. I chatted with Larry a bit about Berkeley kits(he's an old stick-and-tissue guy, in case you did not know) and almost bought a Hawk myself...he had a really good deal on some scratch-and-dent ones...but it takes reversed springair retracts with the cylinders on the outside, and the new VX46 engine, so by the time all was said and done, I would have dropped another $1200 on a DF plane, which I really don't want to do.
Not that the Hawk is not a beautiful model...seemed to fly great for the three minutes Wolfman had his in the air!
Soooo.....
Silas fires up his Saab Viggen. He built this at least fifteen years ago, scaled up from the Ziroli plan to fit a Turbax 45. After maybe seven trips to the field with it, he has never gotten it airborne, for a bunch of reasons. He makes a takeoff attempt, but corrects a little too hard on the nosegear, and the plane goes up on a wingtip and ground loops, tearing out a main gear, scraping the bottom, and breaking off a servo horn.
Wolfman and I pit crew for Silas, and fifteen minutes later, by the grace of God and CA and clear plastic tape, the Viggen is ready for flight again.
This time, Silas designates ME as the pilot. I get her airborne, but she is both prominently tailheavy and prominently underpowered. And way out of trim. And very difficult to see. Swedish camo works all to well, and the Viggen's a very tough shape to keep oriented. It takes all my best Yeagering to keep it staggering around the patch in a gradual left turn to just get enough height to get into a position to land. White knuckes, the plane is barely flying, just staggering through the air. After a few circuits, I have to tighten up the turn a bit to keep it from flying over the pits, and WHAM. She snaps, goes into a brutal spin(whomever said that canard deltas won't spin must have never flown a tailheavy one), first one way and the other, and POW. Not onto the pavment, thank God. Onto a nice soft pile of railroad ties instead:
Not that the Hawk is not a beautiful model...seemed to fly great for the three minutes Wolfman had his in the air!
Soooo.....
Silas fires up his Saab Viggen. He built this at least fifteen years ago, scaled up from the Ziroli plan to fit a Turbax 45. After maybe seven trips to the field with it, he has never gotten it airborne, for a bunch of reasons. He makes a takeoff attempt, but corrects a little too hard on the nosegear, and the plane goes up on a wingtip and ground loops, tearing out a main gear, scraping the bottom, and breaking off a servo horn.
Wolfman and I pit crew for Silas, and fifteen minutes later, by the grace of God and CA and clear plastic tape, the Viggen is ready for flight again.
This time, Silas designates ME as the pilot. I get her airborne, but she is both prominently tailheavy and prominently underpowered. And way out of trim. And very difficult to see. Swedish camo works all to well, and the Viggen's a very tough shape to keep oriented. It takes all my best Yeagering to keep it staggering around the patch in a gradual left turn to just get enough height to get into a position to land. White knuckes, the plane is barely flying, just staggering through the air. After a few circuits, I have to tighten up the turn a bit to keep it from flying over the pits, and WHAM. She snaps, goes into a brutal spin(whomever said that canard deltas won't spin must have never flown a tailheavy one), first one way and the other, and POW. Not onto the pavment, thank God. Onto a nice soft pile of railroad ties instead:
07-12-2002, 02:28 AM
#3
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Man I hate it when I re-kit a plane. Tell him I can feel his pain. I saw Larry Wolfe put on a demo with that ARF, and a Turbax/K&B .48 in it, at Denver and it flew really well. What powerplant did your friend have in his. Tell him that a crash is just a good reason to buy a new jet. 
07-12-2002, 02:31 AM
#4
Zero for three, pretty much!
So, I fire up my Viper. I bought it used out at Toledo, and did some overhaul work, replacing all the pneumatics and fuel tubing and battery, adding inflight mixture. It had been flown, but not by me.
I put in a beautiful, beautiful flight. It's a wonderful airplane to fly. The landing is picture perfect.
When I get it down, I realize my radio is programmed wrong, and instead of giving me down flaps on flaperon, I landed with crow, flaps going up! Yet, it was a beautiful landing, go figure...
I put in a beautiful, beautiful flight. It's a wonderful airplane to fly. The landing is picture perfect.
When I get it down, I realize my radio is programmed wrong, and instead of giving me down flaps on flaperon, I landed with crow, flaps going up! Yet, it was a beautiful landing, go figure...
07-12-2002, 02:44 AM
#5
Always bring a trash bag...
So, we chew the fat for a bit with the other flyers out there, while I reprogram my radio a bit and charge my batteries.
Second flight starts off beautifully, too. Big loops, rolls, all that good stuff, it's really a nice airplane to fly.
Then comes the landing. This time, when I hit the flaps, the plane balloons horribly. I end up way too high, so I go around again. Same thing. I think the flaps are not going down far enough, so instead of slowing the plane down, they are just causing extra lift. I retract the flaps and go around again. The third time was not a great approach. Useable, but not great pilotage, and I want to land at least as well as the first time, so I throttle up and go around again, and the engine quits. Out of fuel. Dumb. In the worst spot possible. No way I will make it back. I get her turned through maybe 180 degrees before she goes down into the jungle.
The three of us head out into the jungle looking for the thing. Forty five minutes later, I come out, all scratched up, covered in sweat and dirt, still no airplane.
One of the older gents at the field swears he saw EXACTLY where it went in. He gives me very specific instructions, and I emerge with the plane within two minutes.
Lesson re-learned: Don't go running off into the woods like an idiot without having a VERY clear line on exactly where the plane is.
The fuse is okay, but one wing is trashed. She will live again.
Probably the best thing about Floyd Bennet is they have a garden hose there. I was able to hose myself off from my jaunt in the jungle and put on some clean British Airways giveaway socks and an American Junior Company t-shirt I had stowed away in the car and feel like a human again.
Ah, well. I can always take up golf. Anybody got a Viper wing handy?
Second flight starts off beautifully, too. Big loops, rolls, all that good stuff, it's really a nice airplane to fly.
Then comes the landing. This time, when I hit the flaps, the plane balloons horribly. I end up way too high, so I go around again. Same thing. I think the flaps are not going down far enough, so instead of slowing the plane down, they are just causing extra lift. I retract the flaps and go around again. The third time was not a great approach. Useable, but not great pilotage, and I want to land at least as well as the first time, so I throttle up and go around again, and the engine quits. Out of fuel. Dumb. In the worst spot possible. No way I will make it back. I get her turned through maybe 180 degrees before she goes down into the jungle.
The three of us head out into the jungle looking for the thing. Forty five minutes later, I come out, all scratched up, covered in sweat and dirt, still no airplane.
One of the older gents at the field swears he saw EXACTLY where it went in. He gives me very specific instructions, and I emerge with the plane within two minutes.
Lesson re-learned: Don't go running off into the woods like an idiot without having a VERY clear line on exactly where the plane is.
The fuse is okay, but one wing is trashed. She will live again.
Probably the best thing about Floyd Bennet is they have a garden hose there. I was able to hose myself off from my jaunt in the jungle and put on some clean British Airways giveaway socks and an American Junior Company t-shirt I had stowed away in the car and feel like a human again.
Ah, well. I can always take up golf. Anybody got a Viper wing handy?
07-12-2002, 02:49 AM
#6
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Originally posted by Secret Agent
Man I hate it when I re-kit a plane. Tell him I can feel his pain. I saw Larry Wolfe put on a demo with that ARF, and a Turbax/K&B .48 in it, at Denver and it flew really well. What powerplant did your friend have in his. Tell him that a crash is just a good reason to buy a new jet.
Man I hate it when I re-kit a plane. Tell him I can feel his pain. I saw Larry Wolfe put on a demo with that ARF, and a Turbax/K&B .48 in it, at Denver and it flew really well. What powerplant did your friend have in his. Tell him that a crash is just a good reason to buy a new jet.
It really seemed like a nice model, and it's a very reasonable price for what you are getting...
07-12-2002, 06:46 AM
#7
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Holy Cr_p!
Man, that is fricken unbelievable. 
I have three words for you guys: "Old Grand Dad"... and I'm not talking about a person, if you know what I mean. Maybe the Hawk is not an ideal "1st" jet. I mean in the sense that it's too pristine and luxurious for Murphy's law not to be close by, especially on those maiden flights. On the other hand, at least you didn't spend months to build it. You guys are definitely "born again hard" (Gunnery Sgt. Hartman) for being able to put a flying day like this behind you. I'd probably post one of those "getting out of the hobby" signs on the RCU sale section the same evening. One last idea, take the Hawk remains and encase it in a solid block of urethane. Then, put it on display at the new Museum of Modern Art in Queens. You could call it, "The height and failure of modern technology". I'm sure it'd get a lot of oohs and ahhs from the eager art-goers!
Steve
I have three words for you guys: "Old Grand Dad"... and I'm not talking about a person, if you know what I mean. Maybe the Hawk is not an ideal "1st" jet. I mean in the sense that it's too pristine and luxurious for Murphy's law not to be close by, especially on those maiden flights. On the other hand, at least you didn't spend months to build it. You guys are definitely "born again hard" (Gunnery Sgt. Hartman) for being able to put a flying day like this behind you. I'd probably post one of those "getting out of the hobby" signs on the RCU sale section the same evening. One last idea, take the Hawk remains and encase it in a solid block of urethane. Then, put it on display at the new Museum of Modern Art in Queens. You could call it, "The height and failure of modern technology". I'm sure it'd get a lot of oohs and ahhs from the eager art-goers! Steve
07-12-2002, 01:09 PM
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Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Going flying at the field today. No matter what happens I know now unequivocally it could be worse....
(and yes I butchered "unequivocally" before spell check)
(and yes I butchered "unequivocally" before spell check)
07-12-2002, 02:47 PM
#11
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Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Curtis
I hate to here that wolfmans first jet endeavor had to be that short. Although if I know wolfman he probably went right into his aerobatic routine like on his crusty old Breitling. Well I know wolfy is a great and generous guy and I hope he up and flying soon as I am sure he will be. say hi to the fellas for me at the swamp
I hate to here that wolfmans first jet endeavor had to be that short. Although if I know wolfman he probably went right into his aerobatic routine like on his crusty old Breitling. Well I know wolfy is a great and generous guy and I hope he up and flying soon as I am sure he will be. say hi to the fellas for me at the swamp
07-12-2002, 04:09 PM
#12
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pilot errors ?
I feel for your losses, but seems as though most of them could have been avoided. Did Wolfer recover from the split-S vertically pointing downward and intentionally snap it without enough altitude for recovery, causing the crash? No, its not a CAP. The underpowered Viggen should have gone around and landed on the First circuit. Out of fuel? Thats what transmitter timers are for.
07-12-2002, 04:44 PM
#13
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Good lessons come from bad experiences, we are only human and EVERYONE has done things that in hindsight they regret. When I first got into this hobby, a wise man told me that there are only two types of models. Those that HAVE crashed, and those that WILL. Every one of my crashed in life have been avoidable, either by better piloting or by just staying home that day. Lets just remember to not throw stones when we live in glass houses.
07-12-2002, 08:08 PM
#14
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GOOD ADVICE
Gee
seems like there is always someone ready to point out what one could have done to prevent a crash. I am sure Wolfy is well aware of what he could have done Now. Maybe he didn't care if his jet was underpowered maybe he didn't want to land on the first circuit . maybe wolf & curtis and the gang would not have crashed if they stayed home that day. Its all in the name of fun like the man said he pulled out his platinum card and solved his dilemma. ON to the next sortie.
nothing like the technoweeny's implying what went wrong
like a post i read a week ago about a crash.I am sure you have read it. (the reason for the crash was due to the air density and the swollen air molecule that affected the molecular cell structure of the jet causing structual deformity creating flutter which made the carbon fiber dual flipback nozzle titanium wammy jammy fail. I mean Cheeeeeze & crackers give it a rest just be quiet and go fly. Go wreck your own jet and figure out why it crashed...
on that note i have a few planes to go crash see ya at the field.
seems like there is always someone ready to point out what one could have done to prevent a crash. I am sure Wolfy is well aware of what he could have done Now. Maybe he didn't care if his jet was underpowered maybe he didn't want to land on the first circuit . maybe wolf & curtis and the gang would not have crashed if they stayed home that day. Its all in the name of fun like the man said he pulled out his platinum card and solved his dilemma. ON to the next sortie.
nothing like the technoweeny's implying what went wrong
like a post i read a week ago about a crash.I am sure you have read it. (the reason for the crash was due to the air density and the swollen air molecule that affected the molecular cell structure of the jet causing structual deformity creating flutter which made the carbon fiber dual flipback nozzle titanium wammy jammy fail. I mean Cheeeeeze & crackers give it a rest just be quiet and go fly. Go wreck your own jet and figure out why it crashed...
on that note i have a few planes to go crash see ya at the field.
07-12-2002, 09:11 PM
#16
Re: GOOD ADVICE
Originally posted by SANTONOMOS
Gee
seems like there is always someone ready to point out what one could have done to prevent a crash. I am sure Wolfy is well aware of what he could have done Now. Maybe he didn't care if his jet was underpowered maybe he didn't want to land on the first circuit . maybe wolf & curtis and the gang would not have crashed if they stayed home that day. Its all in the name of fun like the man said he pulled out his platinum card and solved his dilemma. ON to the next sortie.
nothing like the technoweeny's implying what went wrong
like a post i read a week ago about a crash.I am sure you have read it. (the reason for the crash was due to the air density and the swollen air molecule that affected the molecular cell structure of the jet causing structual deformity creating flutter which made the carbon fiber dual flipback nozzle titanium wammy jammy fail. I mean Cheeeeeze & crackers give it a rest just be quiet and go fly. Go wreck your own jet and figure out why it crashed...
on that note i have a few planes to go crash see ya at the field.
Gee
seems like there is always someone ready to point out what one could have done to prevent a crash. I am sure Wolfy is well aware of what he could have done Now. Maybe he didn't care if his jet was underpowered maybe he didn't want to land on the first circuit . maybe wolf & curtis and the gang would not have crashed if they stayed home that day. Its all in the name of fun like the man said he pulled out his platinum card and solved his dilemma. ON to the next sortie.
nothing like the technoweeny's implying what went wrong
like a post i read a week ago about a crash.I am sure you have read it. (the reason for the crash was due to the air density and the swollen air molecule that affected the molecular cell structure of the jet causing structual deformity creating flutter which made the carbon fiber dual flipback nozzle titanium wammy jammy fail. I mean Cheeeeeze & crackers give it a rest just be quiet and go fly. Go wreck your own jet and figure out why it crashed...
on that note i have a few planes to go crash see ya at the field.
Pilot error, well, YES. Just like Santos figured(he knows wolfman), he went right into an aerobatic routine. I was VERY surprised he tried a split-s after being in the air such a short time. But he did, and he pulled to hard.
Hey, it's not the first ARF he's doinked, and he takes it like a true sportsman, just moves right on to the next one. He'll be flying a new Hawk within a few weeks. Probably won't pull so hard on the sticks next time!
The Viggen, well, I would have LIKED to land right away, but the plane was way out of trim, and it was enough to just keep it airborne at all, much less get into a position to shoot an approach, which is what I was attempting. IF I had been willing to fly over the pits and the parking lot, which I was unwilling to do with a plane that was so barely airborne, I MIGHT have been able to circle the field once more and get her down. But I tried to turn away from the pits, and the energy lost was just too much. Sorry. I did my best. No regrets, I think I did very well.
The Viper, well, if I had programmed my radio correctly, I would not have shot three approaches and run out of fuel. So, yes, it was definitely pilot error. I could have/should have called Anne Marie Cross at Futaba, she always has a quick answer to these programming questions.
Yes, this is the one from the same guy who had the Starfire. Sure wish I had bought the starfire, too. The viper was superbly built, and flew like a charm. Even though it had been sitting for quite some years before I bought it, it did not need much work at all. I tore down the engine to check for rust, replaced all the air lines and rubber parts and the battery. Also repaired some scrapes to the wingtips and such, glassed and repainted them. Added a mixture valve, too. Minor stuff, only a couple of evenings.
I don't normally buy other people's airplanes, but it looked like it was nicely done, and it was a very good deal. How is the Starfire? Do you know who built it? The AMA adress label was removed from the inside of the hatch of mine...
07-12-2002, 09:17 PM
#17
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Originally posted by mach1
Easytiger.....Thanks for the reality check...it's great to be human!
Easytiger.....Thanks for the reality check...it's great to be human!
I never claim "interference", or wind shear, or anything like that...if I dorked it, I'll shout "pilot error!" So what?
I don't call it crashing...I call it FREEING UP A RECEIVER.
07-13-2002, 02:27 AM
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Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Originally posted by EASYTIGER
I'm not afraid to admit pilot error! I have crashed a lot of nice airplanes, and more often that not, IT'S MY FAULT!
I never claim "interference", or wind shear, or anything like that...if I dorked it, I'll shout "pilot error!" So what?
I don't call it crashing...I call it FREEING UP A RECEIVER.
I'm not afraid to admit pilot error! I have crashed a lot of nice airplanes, and more often that not, IT'S MY FAULT!
I never claim "interference", or wind shear, or anything like that...if I dorked it, I'll shout "pilot error!" So what?
I don't call it crashing...I call it FREEING UP A RECEIVER.
If the aircraft is repairable............. I call it a hard landing!
Been there done that!
My archives at my shop are full of "Hard Landings" waiting to be repaired.
07-14-2002, 01:45 PM
#20
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
Heh, heh...
"Hey Ripley, can you spare a stick o' Beeman's?"
Welcome, MR. Tharpe!
I thought your article about flying pulsejet RC models out on the desert floor was INSPIRING. Loud, fast, and unique. Modelling at its best!
Too bad there are no deserts anywhere near NYC...I don't know of anyplace at all around here to fire up a pulsejet without getting arrested...
"Hey Ripley, can you spare a stick o' Beeman's?"
Welcome, MR. Tharpe!
I thought your article about flying pulsejet RC models out on the desert floor was INSPIRING. Loud, fast, and unique. Modelling at its best!
Too bad there are no deserts anywhere near NYC...I don't know of anyplace at all around here to fire up a pulsejet without getting arrested...
07-15-2002, 12:54 PM
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easytiger
Hey Easytiger. The Starfire is very nicely built. I'm finishing going through the whole plane now. I don't know who built it. Funny thing I went back to the table at Toledo to buy the Viper and it was gone. Good luck in fixing it. I'm hoping to get the Starfire flying in a week or so.
07-15-2002, 01:58 PM
#22
Bad day at Floyd Bennet!
I definitely regret not getting the Starfire, too! Like I said, the Viper was very nicely built, and it took only very minimal work to get it up to spec. Much less than I expected. No reason why the Starfire should not be the same. Don't know why he was charging more for the Starfire than the Viper. Maybe it was just the hangar rash on the Viper?
