WilsonFlyer

My Feedback: (13)

Maybe there's already a thread here. I'm sure there is but I can't seem to find one.

I see a lot in this forum about kit turbines (planes and engines). Is there any such thing as a "trainer" ARF in this side of the hobby? How cheap can one get started? Where do you find the stuff? What stuff does one need?

I've read enough to see that I should just skip the stupid DF thing IMO. What do I do now? I'm not a builder and I don't want to become one. I'm a flier. Is there any hope for me to get started in this venue of the hobby? Approved links would be GREATLY appreciated!

Skymac

My Feedback: (8)

I think if you haven't been around ducted fans you don't need to skip them. They are a great tool for troubleshooting and have the same flight patterns as any turbine. Ducted Fans can also teach you alot about how the jet flys and gives you a feel for the speed. Understanding everything mechainically and aerodynamicly has alot to do with thing, and with jets be it turbine or ducted fan there are many things that require annual inspection and "tweaking" only thing you are giving your self by starting with turbines is rarly ever having engine problems unlike fans that could quit or break at anytime, more money invested, extra flying time with a qualified pilot. I think as far as arf's go Yellow Aircraft used to (probably still do) produce arf versions of thier .91/Turbine Powered F-16 and F-18. Also JHH Has a .45 sized BaE Hawk Arf but they are hard to come by as I have heard. IMHO you should pick a kit in which you can convert to turbine when you feel ready to and built it yourself so you can know what went into it and understand more of how things work.

Randy M.

My Feedback: (38)

The best thing to do is go to where there are Jet Flyers that can help you. There are probably several in your area that can help you with any questions you have.
Another is to go to a couple Jet Meets. That's where you can see everything you need to. Often you can pick up what you need to get started, plane, engine,equipment, etc.
The best plane for you may not be the best plane for someone else. There are many factors- runway type, length, transportation, money, are just a few.
Most pilots start with a sport plane such as a Hot Spot, Rookie, Kangaroo. They are great flying planes, much less complex than scale planes, and are less exspensive.
Most importantly, look around, figure out what will work best for you.
Good luck, Randy

WilsonFlyer

My Feedback: (13)

((Insider's boys club. Noone wants to help. Exactly what I had heard about the jet crowd. Duly noted. I'll learn like I've learned everything else in this hobby.))

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Outsider idiot's club. Do some searches in this forum. four times a month someone pops in and asks where to start. There is an extensive thread on this issue if you'll take a few minutes to look for it. I'll give you a hint, use words like "beginner" or "where to start" or "I don't know jack diddly about fire breating Jet Airplanes".

We all have busy lives, we come here to discuss current issues. If you want real help, go to a field where turbine guys fly or to a jet meet and ask. Or fly down to Austin and I'll hook you up on a buddy chord. We're all willing to help, you just have to wait in line with the rest of everyone else who wants to know about this stuff.

Best of luck to you.

Gordito Volador

My Feedback: (1)

If you go to the E-Zone, electric jets forum you will get lots of help from a real good group of guys. EDF has come into it's own these days. With LiPo batteries and brushless motors you can exceed 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and there is quite a range of trainers to high performance scale aircraft.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/index.php

Kevin_W

My Feedback: (1)

Learning Man,
There is no "insider's boys club" as you call it, but I can understand why you might get that impression with responses like the one from Sean.
You seem to have passed judgement on the entire jet community based on some pre-conceived notions and the opinions of persons un-named.
Your original question was answered quite well by Skymac and Randy M (and within a short periond of time I might add), they gave you thier opinions on several models that you might get started with and told you that the best way to learn was to meet in person with other pwople who fly jets.
The only request from your first post that was not accommidated was your request for "approved links", I believe these can and will be happily provided to you if you give us some more information about your flying experience, the field you normally fly from, what "type" of "jets" (i.e. scale, sport) interest you most, and how much you are prepared to spend.
There is no great conspiracy to keep you from flying model jets. We as a community are just as diverse as every other aspect of model aviation so there are bound to be some people amoungst us who you will not take a liking to, but I assure you that the vast majority of jet modelers are very helpful and likeable people and we will bend over backwards to help anyone who asks politely.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...tm.htm#1109761

JET FX

LearningMan, just sent you a PM

WilsonFlyer

My Feedback: (13)

Duly noted as well. Thanks for categorizing yourself for me and saving me the trouble.

Others...

Thanks for your help. It was frustrating to read those two first replies when I've been reading THREAD AFTER THREAD discouraging people from "even messing with" ducted fan models because of all the trouble with them (flame-outs, etc.).

I read the responses to my straight-forward questions and what other conclusion was one to draw except what I did? They turned right around and recommended that I just stay away from turbines until I had pulled my time (or at least that was the implication I read into it) despite recommendation after recommendation in other threads to the contrary (from other members I'm sure though).

I've always heard it's better to ask for help from experts when attempting any new endeavor when such help is readily available. Rest assured I will bust hell wide open to do it regardless. I just thought I'd take the easy route first. NBD. I'll get there one way or the other.

Skymac

My Feedback: (8)

LearningMan,

I believe you will find the jet community to be on of the friendliest of them all, everybody is willing to help and anybody will talk to you and give you "there own" opinion whether you fly Bvm, Yellow, Top Gun, Jet Hangar, Skymaster, Jet Cat, Simjet, Fte, or even OS. I can't count how many times I've seen a "few" reps affilted with a brand y and a person asked them a question about brand x, if they have the time I’ve seen people help others for a whole day or how ever long it takes to resolve the solution. Like Kevin_W said, pick a nitch, and ask as many question as you need and when someone else needs help you will have been there and done that, But the ultimate question whether to start out with d/f or turbine goes back to local flyers in your area, do you have turbine pilots close? if not go ducted fan, they'll make you use your head more because you can be assured that more than once you will be put in a bad position where you need power and you don't have it, then you have to think quick to save your tail, because "usually" in a turbine you have ample power to pull your self out of the "creek"

SigKavalier

Yeah the jet community is definitely very open and friendly. When I first started looking into a turbine I got nothing, but help from people here, and even an offer to go fly one. However Im still a broke college student so I just found that jets are simply out of my price range. It's definitely not a "cheap" section of the hobby, and it's also an area where cutting corners or using "cheap" gear is both dangerous and costly.

Although I must say I enjoy watching jet guys fly! No matter if it's a jet, helicopter, prop plane, etc. The one's I have seen have all been top pilots who do nothing but grease landings, and smooth simply awesome flying. I think what turbine guys consider a "rough" landing is about 100 times smoother than your average flyers landing. Plus they do solid pre-flights, and are mature enough to "no-go" a flight if anything is funny.

Jets are definitely something to look forward to for me so I just plan to keep honing my skills untill that day. Also from all my reading, asking, etc. DF is probably a good idea becaus it is totally different than a prop plane (I fly EDF's). Plus you can get DF gear extra cheap now since the arrival of turbines. Also it seems DF opinions are mixed some have no problems, and some have nothing but problems. I think that is just like with prop planes when two guys with the same engines one cannot keep his running, and the other cannot remember the last time he had to tune his.

Also from what I've read, seen, and been told 12lb turbines just aren't the way to go. After looking around at "future" potential jets I might want to do I also quickly found out that a small turbine would not suite my needs.

Anyway thats just my 0.02 cents as I am not a turbine guy. Most of that is simply my opinion, and the advice given to me by turbine guys which I hold in high regard.

MAX EFFFORT

L.M. , you have got the wrong impression about these jet dudes. they have helped me get my first turbine jet together [right] and you can find an expert to help you fly it. you just have to be polite and considerate when you ask them for help. i have never flown a ducted fan and hope i never do [no offense d/f dudes, their just not my thing]. if you can honestly say that you are a good to expert ,and confident flyer of fast prop planes ,and are half way mechanically inclined, you souldn,t have much trouble .. i bought a harpoon arf jet, [like a rookie], that was the absolute least amount of work, and most bang for my buck. it is an expensive hobby, when you crash one of these its going to really hurt,, so if you got the guts ,bucks, and brains ,,, i say go for it.... tip 1- research everything here before you buy anything.

oy2503

My Feedback: (1)

Hi there.

I was "in your shoes" not long ago. And I have asked around and read some very good threads here.

And received help everytime I asked. Both here and anywhere else. When I started looking around in Denmark (where I live), it looked a little like an insider's club. Of course it did, because it's something very few does. And those few were very friendly and I have never felt a lack of good advice.

What got into you, writing this ? :

((Insider's boys club. Noone wants to help. Exactly what I had heard about the jet crowd. Duly noted. I'll learn like I've learned everything else in this hobby.))

You must have had a very short fuse that day, i think. You got well-meant answers to your question showing different
perspectives. Instead of weighing the answers you got, identifying them as pro and con DF/turbine, you just blew your fuse. Your posting told more about you than anyone else. I fully understand the next posting: "Outsider....".
Because the Internet gives us such instant communication, we all need to constrain ourselves and not react on an impulse.



A long story: I started out buying a used stripped Byron F-16 DF. When I had collected just about all I needed to finish it, I found a very nice used Simjet 2250 turbine. Now I feel like a donkey between several nice haystacks and have a hard time choosing what to do. I believe now I'll build the Kangaroo II kit I (also) have, and forgetting the scale planes for now.
After all, I can make a lot of fun stuff with a Kangaroo; I can give it a Tomcat paint job and canards later.

Erik

whiteside

My Feedback: (5)

FNG,
Yeah I think you should skip DF. We could debate this all day. I see at the jet meets that DF guys make better turbine guys, GENERALLY and IN THEORY! They are used to having engine trouble if anything. Although I dont think you should skip the learning process. What is your RC experience? Full size experience? Sim experience? Do you understand why the jet is flying, engine running, servos moving etc? There are so many excellent jet kits and ARFs on the market today that you can, by choosing the right engine/airframe combo set yourself up for a long progression of learning and trouble free jet modeling! I can only recommend the kits I have flown as trainers. With the proper experience prior to flying your first jet, you can transition right into them with no problems. First finding someone who will help you with setup is important. Dont skimp on cheap equipment. This will cost you 2-3X as much in the long run. If your time is at all valuable to you you will heed my last. You can pay now or pay later but you will pay. Buy a lightly wing loaded jet with a proven engine design. Proper fuel cells, high end servos, and radio equip. EVERY time you go and buy anything for your jet, buy the best! No compromises. This can get a little tricky sometimes as there is LOTS of great equipment to outfit your jet with. Over time you will develop a feel for what you like and what manufacturers R&D thier products so as to eliminate failures at the field. GO to a jet meet. Ask questions, and take note as to what the pilots are flying. Watch thier jets fly, find a jet that meets your requirements of a trainer. I learned on a EuroSport, it has most of the qualities Iwould recommend for a first jet. It has a highly swept wing so it does have fighter like agility, speed and comes with the inherent trade offs of those charachteristics. The trick to that jet is the wing loading. It is so light,you can get away with murder during maneuvering flight and in the landing pattern. The Boomerang is also an excellent choice for your first jet as it acts like a pattern ship in all phases of flight. You really get to concentrate on turbine operation instead of keeping the model upright and pointed correctly. Another great turbine trainer is the KingCat, its wingloading is so light and its flight envelope is so wide that it will fly extremely slow and very fast. If building and engineering isnt your bag then this as all the BVM kits are a great choice due to the well thought out engineering and R&D. You JUST read directions and your jet is flying, My Eurosport required lots of head scratching to figure out what would go where. My A-10 Warthog required even more of this. You are not a test pilot. So keep in mind, some kits are not as well thought out as others. Even though they sell them, doesnt mean that they are eas to build or are easy to fly.
Get yourself an RC simulator. There is a reason the military, airlines and others utilize these things. As a full scale flight instructor, I cn almost cut in half the time and effort expended in flight training by using a simulator. I used one, hell I tought myself to fly full scale and RC on one. Dont start at a disadvantage by buying a high performance, highly wing loaded jet as your first. As much as youd like to you will probably be setting yourself up for failure. Again ask questions, I rely on my friends at a jet meet to answer questions about the equipment I am using. I know i make them crazy(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) but thats the support network with these jet guys. I have heard many times that the jet community is the most organized group of guys on the RC scene. It has to be! We are here to help each other to see the outcome a prosperous one for all of us. You wont believe how much fun it is once you get up to speed. My last gripe is just try to be as organized as you can in all ways about fielding a jet even if it isnt at a jet meet. test EVERYTHING at home. Tools and supplies included.
Thats my formula, it works well and everytime. best of luck to you.
Will Whiteside

Rainman-ACRF

Any jet-styled pusher will fly with similar characteristics, it doesn't have to be a DF.

You have basically hit the nail on the head, there is a great deal of inconsitency in performance and tuning expertise amongst folk that fly (or attempt to fly) IC powered DF models. As a contrast there is one common denominator amongst gas turbines - they work to their full potential with very little effort required, no matter how long you leave them standing, and they're not too fussy about the fuel you put through them so long as its clean.

I STRONGLY disagree. Low thrust does not mean low performance. Smaller turbines are lighter which for the complete jet novice has many benefits. Lighter wing loadings give much more forgiving flight characteristics and have much less residual thrust which assists with much slower landings. It could also be argued that smaller turbines have less inertia to overcome during spool-up and provide slighter better response when going from idle to full power - very useful for those aborted landings where you suddenly need to go around again.

You need to take into account precisely were you are intending to operate a gas turbine model as you might not be able to fly anything but a small turbine due to weight restrictions. We don't all have endless access to tarmac strips at a moments notice. Again, lighter aircraft will generally be easier to operate from grass or where available space might be an issue.

My 0.02 cents as whilst I am full-blooded jet novice, I do actually fly one.

Phil

KFalcon

My Feedback: (18)

I think what he means when he says a 12 pound thrust turbine is a small model like a Yellow A-4 that weighs 12 pounds and is powered by a 12 pound turbine. One that has a high wing loading by design. In the case of going with a smaller motor over a larger, I would say get the extra thrust if fuel loads permit. The extra thrust can pull you out of some bad situations if used properly. In my opinion the 1/2 pound difference in weight between the larger and smaller turbines isn't enough to over ride the extra thrust. Plus the larger turbine can be used in your next project which will more than likely require more thrust. You can always turn the turbine down.




Will had some great comments. I would have to agree with the Euro as a good trainer. The Rookie is also a good one to start with. Good luck.

Rainman-ACRF

I agree with that sentiment completely. As with any model, whether it's a turbine or not, wing-loading is key to a plane that flies well.

The reality is that we're not talking about 1/2 pounds, we're talking whole pounds. Every little bit makes a difference to the way a model flies, and it doesn't take much thought before you can start shedding some really useful amounts of weight with some significant benefits - especially if you're just starting out. Like you just said, wing-loading is everything.

Phil

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

LearningMan,

I think I may have the answer to your questions.

1. Yes, there are the equivalents of "trainer ARF's". But there are none "Ultimate Combos". Most ARF trainers are delta wings, and they look just like a Mig-29 that has had the tail blown out by a AIM-9X. These "ARFs" are simple to build, but turbine installation is an anal process you won't be able to avoid.
2. www.yellowaircraft.com, www.bvmjets.com, www.tamjets.com, www.planesplus.com, www.compositesarf.com ->these are the most popular websites for entry level jets.
3. Money talks and BS walks. If youre not a builder, but a flyer, just pay somenone $2-3K and you will get a finished jet. It is that easy.
4. If you have the money, go straight to turbines. You will get there anyways. IF you are budget restricted, find a good used DF and fly the hell out of it. Some DF's fly at 200+mph, just as fast as a typical jet.

Hope this answers your original questions. It can get political around here sometimes.

Good luck. David