Shaun Evans

Well,

The thread was started to compare the speeds of two specific planes. Now, we're talking about airplanes that you can't even get any longer. The original author didn't ask about 'the fasted ducted fan in history...'

It's an amusing testament to BV that almost every discussion about jets turns into a debate over price and 'engineering'. He's gotta be laughing (all the way to the bank) about that fact! Fact is, I doubt that his sales would diminish much at all if he raised his prices every month. He's got good stuff and there's a certain type of customer that will buy it regardless of price.

Speaking of price, the new Yellow Aircraft Stingray is in stock, and there are only about a dozen left out of an initial shipment of 60, so if you're thinking of getting one these pre-primed, carbon reinforced (even in the wings), presheeted, good looking, damn-near-an-ARF little beauties, now would be a good time! Oh yeah, and they're only $395.

Harley Condra

My Feedback: (4)

PR38,
I'm certainly not gretting defensive.....more like "informative".

If I had a $30,000.00 jet budget, I could buy two....count them.....two BVM F-4 Phantoms, and have enough left over for a completed BobCat, and have them all filled full of the best radio systems and engines that money can buy.

Check the price out on BVM's website, for the full story. A BVM F-4 can be sitting on it's gear, ready for a sortie for $12,439.95. That includes $3,495 for the P-120, $1,500 for the JR airborne equipment, and another $1,000 for the finish and Pro-Mark markings. All of the adhesives are included as well. All you need is the $$$$ and the time to build them.

Show me/us a better value, and a better jet manufacturer for a "fiberglass airplane" and then expain why there is always a waiting list for BVM jet kits.

As far as slave labor is involved, some of the kits on the market come from mainland China, .....is there any debate as to the type of prevalent labor there? Maybe "slave" is not the best word, but to many of us in our great Republic, it strikes a chord that rings quite true.

Many kit manufacturers are small "Mom and Pop" operations. No, I'm not going to slight them, just wish them well in a VERY difficult marketplace. Mom and Pop companies fall down all the time. Only the best few survive and mature, then grow into larger, stronger orginizations. Such as BVM.

Kevin Greene has it right. Make a list of the stuff you will need to complete your favorite kit (other than BVM jet) and add up the cost of those extra items not included in the kit, (some of which will be represented by an empty peg-board hook at the local model shop), and then total it up to see if you have approached the price of a BVM Jet.

All of the BVM instructions show how to integrate everything into a complete system. If you don't have those instructions, (because you bought brand X) you can always ask for help on RCU.

All of the engineering has been done for you by BVM.
If you need help, you can always call and talk to BV hisself, or contact a BVM REP. BV has a very "open" phone policy. I'll bet that if you called him for help, he would get on the line to assist you personally. That's facory assistance spelled with capital letters!

That's all that I have to say about this, which represents some of my experience in 52 years in the hobby.....I got my first RC system in 1955. Just a few small changes since then.....


There is always a certain kind of customer that will always buy the cheapest thing on the market.....

Harley Condra
BVM REP

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

Yellow Aircraft,

Hypocrisy!!! Ya gotta love it!!! You criticize 'cause the thread got way off topic and then you turn it into a commercial for an airplane that is not even a ducted fan. Oh, the shame...

The F-4 and F-18 that were originally asked about are only marginally fast. (I've owned both) What some of us were trying to convey is that if you want to go REALLY fast----here's what is available.

Kevin

Harley Condra

My Feedback: (4)

Good on 'ya Kevin!

Harley Condra
BVm REP

P.S. Didn't know you had moved.....What 'cha doing in the bay area, Shaun?

PR38

Not defensive? Could have fooled me. What was that cut about a "certain kind of customer"?
Look, BVM is the last company out there wanting to sell you a "value." His entire marketing plan has been to target those people who will pay whatever the price is, regardless of how rediculous the price...those people that feel like they have to "out-do" the next guy by making you think his stuff is leaps and bounds better than everything else, and he is using his reps to do it. I still haven't heard a good argument as to why his kits are so expensive--and don't give me more of this "he has worked hard" and "he's a great asset to the RC community" or any of that nonsense...you should ask yourself what is REALLY driving his prices?
I have seen his stuff, and it really is not that much better. I have to disagree with you AND Mr. Greene:
1. Spectre kit w/Ramtec fan, fiberglass ducting (fore and aft) and clear canopy $600 shipped.
2. OS.91 w/header and pipe $360
3. Spring air retracts $150
4. Custom pneumatic gear $200
5. Trim wheels and brakes $150
That totals $1460. All that is left is radio gear and finishing, and you can fly a nice jet. Now tell me how you figure $2398.45 without the $1000+ DF installation kit for a Balsa Bandit?
You're telling me that "nuts, bolts, and screws" add up to nearly $2000? Now I'm the one thats amused.

PS-I personally saw a BVM F-4 go for $32,000 on BVM's "TurnKey Jets" page. I don't forget something like that quickly and I remeber it quite well.

pmriser

I will try to keep this simple........Suppy and Demand!!

His kits are expensive BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR THEM!!

Don't you think Trim would charge the 4 grand if people were willing to pay it?!?

Its the same thing as saying people are stupid for buying Mercedes when a chevy will get them to the store, same exact arguement

PR38

Ok, you seem to be caught in your own logical fallacy. If you lower the price, you will sell more volume. More volume (although a lower profit margin) could potentially mean more overall profit. My argument is that he is waaayyy off the optimal selling point.
Why do you think those Kangaroo, BobCat, TopCat, HotSpot, Stingray types are so popular (aside from being able to get to the turbine)?
BECAUSE THEY ARE CHEAP!

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

PR38,

With your comparison it is obvious that you have never built or owned a BVM product...

OS 91 and pipe....I've owned at least a dozen OS 91's over the years. I've owned three BVM 91's. The reason is that the BVM 91's last. It is false economy to buy an OS 91 and think that it will last as long as the BVM 91. Besides, have you tried to buy an OS 91 lately?

Spring Air retracts....You've got to be kidding!!! Have you looked at a set of the new Balsa Bandit/BobCat mains? I have yet to break the BVM mains. I wish that I could say the same for the Spring Airs'.

Custom pneumatic gear...Each plane will differ on this one. I do know that BV's air install packages are complete.

Trim Wheels and Brakes...I really gotcha on this one!!! Did you know that Trim stole BV's PATENTED "O" ring design?!? BV sued and now Trim has to pay a royalty for every one sold!!!

Let's not even get into the debate on how similar the Ramtec fan is to the Dynamax....

I'm not a BVM or nothing kind of guy. I buy what I like and I've bought a LOT of airplanes over the years. If you would like I will list them for you. I do know that my experiences in this hobby are what convinces me that BV's products are top shelf. What is your experience???

Kevin

BernieG

I can't let say something as stupid as that ! BV has a US patent, while Trim is an Australian company, and as such, CANNOT stole a patent which does not apply in their country. Woud have to prove they were knowing that a patent existed, anyway.

Now, BV enforce his patent for material imported in the US, perfectly normal, but the US are not the world, in case you forgot...

Bernard

Harley Condra

My Feedback: (4)

Take the fire suit off! Calm down and enjoy the hobby!
Buy what you want and can afford. Your choice doesn't affect me at all, and I will be the last one to tell you what you must spend your hard earned cash on.

I will continue to fly the jets of my choice, without regard to your appreciation or opinion of what is meant by the word "value".
The word "value" is too subjective in this context anyway.

As far as Joe Grice's F-4 going for $32,000.00, only Joe and the buyer know what amount of money crossed the table on that deal. The definition of a good deal, is: "When the buyer and seller are in agreement with the terms and conditions of the exchange".
It must have qualified under that definition. I don't disagree with that logic, do you?

FYI, The $1,099.50 installation kit for a DF Balsa Bandit includes the BVM .91 or .96 engine, VIOFAN, std. pipe, pipe retainer, and BVM mixture control.

The balance of the price, in excess of the airframe kit price, includes the machined landing gear, Duro Struts, wheels, tires and brakes, air installation kit, Smooth Stop brake valve, etc. Too much to list here.

I'll give you a deal on one when you're ready.....that's a promise!
I will save you a buck or two!

You are wrong concerning BV's marketing plan..he would be out of business with that type of attitude.

Harley Condra
BVM REPi

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

BernieG,

I did not specify whether it was a world patent or a US patent. THE POINT WAS THAT TRIM STOLE THE DESIGN!!! BV had his design loooong before Trim incorporated it into theirs. I have an older set of Trim Wheels and Brakes (with the pistons and flat bands) and a new set of them with the "O" ring. As much as BVM advertised their patented wheels and brakes over the years are you going to think that we are NAIVE to believe that Trim came up with this design on their own?!? The last time I checked Australia was not cut off from the rest of the world....

Kevin

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

Harley,

You are right---this is just a hobby and buy what you like. Funny thing....I just purchased a Trim F-86. Good kit. What sold me on this kit was its size. It is slightly larger than the BVM and will hold more fuel. It just irks me when BV gets bashed because of price. It would be another thing if he put out a bunch of crap...I guess everyone draws a bead on the top dog. I also put in an order for a Super Bandit earlier this week. Patty says that it will ship tomorrow!!! YEEEHAAAAA!!!!

Kevin

pmriser

In order to increase vloume, one must make a capital investment, in more tooling and human resources, in order to make more product. That is more risk, a business decision. Nad contrary to what you think, BVs fiberglass is way beyond most kits, you can choose to believe that or not, it is a fact bo an opinion. So now he has to develop the expertise to hand craft all of these low margin kits you want him to make...

As to the potential for increased overall profit due to higher volume at lower price, you are caught in your own logic. You youself have stated that BVM has created a brand recognition, if he sells a cheaper product, how can ensure he maintains his brand equity? Another risk. RAM tried that one too, with the 500 BTW.

As for the other planes you mention...

Kangaroo....Fiberclassics in receivership, new owners.

Hotspot, completely copied, absolutley no differentiation, people will buy GWM knockoff, the Peter Liebetraub or whoever makes one next week. Absolutely no room for differentiation

Topcat, firebird, blade et al, they all compete at the margins, no product differentiation, no ability to premium price.

BTW at superman there were more Bobcats that any other sport jet...

BernieG

It is a US Patent, and NOT a World Patent. To Stole something, the "something" has to exist, and you have to know it ! How many times, in our RC world, do we use ideas from others ? Is not it the main reason for our very RC Universe to exists ? exchange ideas ? Or are we all steeling from each other ?

Bob has an excellent buisness sens, and he has patent on a bunch of things, but if you do the same thing in your own corner of the world WITHOUT KNOWING A PATENT EXISTS, you are not steeling anything ! Remember, that was about 15 years ago, and we were not using the internet and exchanging informations at that time as much as we do now.

BTW, who stole the design of the wheel ? that was MY idea !

Bernard

Shaun Evans

Whoa!

Don't look now, Kevin, but there's a phrase for the nature of my thread, it's called 'tongue-in-cheek'. You see, right after I mentioned that the posts had gotten off track from the original question, I deliberately, and light-heartedly, segued into an ad for the Stingray. It's not hipocrisy, at least not the genuine kind.

All this talk of slave labor, I'm starting to feel guilty about selling Yellow Aircraft products. Not really. My internet pen-pal, who works in the factory where our products are built, really resents it when he is referred to, or though of, as a slave. He, like his colleagues, is actually pretty happy to be working where he works. When he meets people, he's actually happy to say that he builds model airplanes for a living. True, perhaps by our standards he is poor, but he makes enough take-home to enjoy his hobby, which is high-performance kites. His English, and his knowledge of the U.S. and its current events would hardly leave you thinking he is a sweat-shop slave. My point? It's much easier to repeat what you hear (birds can do that) than it is to investigate something, and know first-hand (or at least second-hand--not sixteenth-hand) what you are talking about.

Harley, it might surprize you to learn how many (and which) U.S. manufacturers of R/C kits have shopped the China production market. Some of the most longeve U.S. companies, even those who've been using the 'don't support slavery' slam against Yellow as a marketing ploy/battle cry, have begun to investigate their overseas options (and in at least one case, actually started importing Chinese built, polyester ARFs), as a simple matter of trying to stay economically viable.

Harley, as much as I honor and appreciate your 52 years of experience in this hobby, in the context of this discussion I have to ask this: In those years, how many DIFFERENT manufacturer's JET kits have you built and flown? How many ducted fan kits? As I recall, the BVM Bandit was your first jet, not including the BVM Maverick (or Aggressor, I'm not sure) that you splashed a mold of just before you bought the Bandit. Then, you almost immediately became a BVM Rep and have only bought and built BVM kits. Therefor, how do you feel so comfortable making the kinds of comparisons that you do? Is any of it first hand, or are you just repeating what you hear? I don't mean this to sound harsh (cuz you KNOW I luv ya'), but I'm growing a little weary of your saying that Yellow's kits have the builder going to the hobby shop all the time. It's simply not true. I know you didn't specifically SAY Yellow, but we've had this discussion many times (besides, it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who you're talking about--hell, Larry Holmes could figure it out...) and it's usually the same story. The additional supplies needed to get a Starfire airborne, for example, come to substantially less than $100, so can you really say that if you 'add up the extra stuff, then compare the price, you'll see the value...'? You, yourself, commented that the Starfire was "..a hell of a bang-for-your-buck" when you saw one of the kits back at Discount Hobbies, back when they were in the big shop on Convoy Court. Case-in-point, the Starfire ARF--a beautifully pre-painted, fully assembled, epoxy/carbon airplane, with EVERYTHING NEEDED to fly, minus engine and radio gear is around $2200 (including turbine inlets, tanks, and Tamjets pipe). Nobody is gonna say that the Starfire is not a great flying airplane, so how on Earth is that not a great value?

Some of this chest-beating/rivalry stuff is fun, but sometimes, it's tedious and downright stupid. Of course, if you know me, you know that I'm just as willing as anybody to banter back and forth, and flag-wave for the cause as anyone--if not more. But, at least I try to keep it friendly, and I keep it REAL. While I haven't had the benefit of 52 years in the hobby, I have had the benefit of having built Yellow, Violett, Air Magic, Top Gun, ITP, Byron, Knights of the Air, George Miller, Kyosho, Bob Parkinson and Jet Hangar Hobbies kits. Does that make me an expert? Hardly (just watch me land lately), but it just leaves a little room to speak first hand, rather than doing the parrot thing. When I draw a comparison between, say, the BVM Falcon and the new Yellow Falcon, and I say that the Yellow Falcon is a much better kit, of course it's just my opinion--but at least I've built both.

If you read my posts, you'll notice that I have a very high opinion of BVM's product. I have always said that it is cutting-edge, very high quality, and fantastic-looking stuff. I've often said that BV himself has always been helpful and courteous to me, and that some of his Reps are some of the best human beings I've had the priv to be in close company with. I've also stated many times that I think that he should sell his kits for as much as he can get for them! I'm not anti-BV at all, so don't take it like that. If you're gonna diss on Yellow, though, come off of that tired 'slave labor' B.S. Yellow's new products are very, very good. The new Eagle and Hawk are gonna be AWESOME, and priced at less than a set of landing gear for some sport jets out there. So, I guess if the quality and the price can't be denounced, you might just have to continue to talk trash about where they're made!

Harley, to answer your question, I'm working up here at the Willows Theater in Concord, in a theater production of the musical, "Big River." It's the musical adaptation of "The Adventures of Huckelberry Finn" by Mark Twain. I play the runaway slave, "Jim" (hey, maybe he's running away from that airplane kit factory!--just kidding :-) I miss San Diego, but it's a very good show, and I'm very happy to be working in the field that I'm educated in again. The show's running until New Years, so come up, bring your fire extinguisher, and I'll comp you some tix. I'd be honored to have you, and I'm sure you'd enjoy seeing me in chains! LOL

God Bless,

ghost_rider

My Feedback: (20)

Ok, people, let us calm it down a little. We are now deviating from the main topic of the original post. If this continues, I will not hesitate to use my close thread options.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation and please note that Shaun's (AKA YELOOWAIRCRAFT) post is not the major culprit. I just happens to be the last post before I posted my warning.

MikeC-RCU

Hi Yellow Aircraft (Shaun)

GREAT POST. Well said!

Does so many people have to take everything on RCU for the gospel truth, or be SO serious about it all ? After all - this is supposed to be our HOBBY (at least for most of us)


Mike C

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

Perhaps we should start a new thread since this developed two heads and a mind of its' own.....

Yellow Aircraft,
If your post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek you fooled most, if not everyone, on RCU. Most folks put a smiley, wink,LOL,etc.,if the post was meant to be that way.

In your opinion you say that the Yellow F-16 is better than BV's. I have built both versions, too. I fact my Yellow F-16 was detailed to the max---so well that it took several honors including best military finish at the Southwest Jet Rally a few years back. To get it to that point is a whole 'nother story, though!!! I wonder if you still have to modify the intake to get the wheels to tuck up in the aircraft so the doors will close? Is the gear on the Yellow still not shock absorbing? You know the answers to these questions and I'm willing to bet that you would not want to get into a REAL comparison between the two. There are several other issues that I can name but I'm going to end it here. If someone wants to start another thread comparing BV's products to another, I'll chime in.

As I said before, I'm not a BVM or nothing kind of guy. I'm not a rep so I don't have a biased opinion as Yellow Aircraft does. I build what I like. BV's products have set a benchmark that I, and most everyone else, compare kits to.

Stick a fork in me...I'm done. Kevin

Shaun Evans

Kevin,

Well, in my post, the "Speaking of price..." was the tongue-in-cheek segue I was referring to. I'm sorry my subtlety fooled you (or, as you say, all of RCU--by the way, how do I get a copy of THAT newsletter?)

I'm perfectly pleased to get into a 'real' discussion of comparisons between the two kits. Yes, Sir, indeedy. In fact, I think we've discussed these two kits in comparison at length at least a few times on RCU. However, you must read the whole post, and you'll reflect that I'm referring to the NEW F-16 kit. I'm not referring to the OLD F-16 kit. The old F-16 kit was a good kit. It built into a good flying airplane that flew and landed easier than the other. The old kit, however, was no match at all for the BVM Falcon kit. Do a search under 'F-16', and you might find a long post I wrote, wherein I talked about the fact that I immediately got rid of my old Yellow F-16 kit when I saw the BVM kit, back in '97. You'll see that my commentary was that I immediately appreciated the price difference between the two kits, and bought the BVM one without hesitation.

But, before we get into a comparison, maybe you might want to take a look at the NEW F-16 kit from Yellow, and determine whether or not you really even want to bow into that. Don't get me wrong, the BVM F-16 is STILL a superb kit. However, it doesn't have carbon inlay throughout. It doesn't have a hinged fiberglass canopy frame that is precut and ready to go. It doesn't have wings and stabs that have carbon cloth laminated between the balsa and foam. It doesn't have a SUPER-SCALE ejection seat included. It doesn't have removeable wings and vertical fin, with solid carbon spars, as standard. It doesn't have dual ball-bearing, all-metal stab pivots as standard. It doesn't include detailed, fiberglass missle rails.

Oh, the shocks on the mains? Well, you got me there. Before I flew the plane, I was nervous about that, but then I remembered how many other airplanes seem to fly and land without them, so I just did it. My first couple of landings were VERY hard, but my mains did just fine! Yes, I have freely admitted that I wish our landing gear had shocks on the mains, but in reality, it doesn't need them. Also, ours are much more true-to-scale, and less than half the price. The kit itself, with the above mentioned features, is just over half the price. This is a good thing! Modelers have an option now for a DAMN GOOD KIT, at a oh-so-much-more-than-competitive price.

Is my opinion biased? I suppose. But so is yours, and pretty much everyone in the hobby. At least to some extent. It's biased to what we like. It's biased to what we're impressed with. My opinion is still fair and honest, though.

Go ahead and take the fork out, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Here's a couple of pics of my F-16. Check out the landing gear, they look pretty good for being under $500 and not having real shocks!

Please Note: These gear have been dressed up by a very talented friend of mine. To see the stock, out-of-the-box gear, just email, or do a search under 'F-16'. Apparently, a couple guys thought I meant to represent that these are the out-of-the-box gear (??) I have previously posted numerous pics of the plane during construction, featuring the untouched gear.

azuz

hey Shaun....

Have you got any websites where i can get prices of the yellow jets..... ???

cheers
azuz

maverick

My Feedback: (12)

Yellow Aircraft has a website but does not list any prices on it. Give the office in Mass a call and they will email/fax you a complete price list.

http://www.yellowaircraft.com/

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

WOW...... I can't believe I have missed out on this discussion!!!! LMAO!!!

You go girls!

BVM rocks............. the $32,000 Phantom (it was listed for $28,000 on BVM's website) you are talking about did not actually sell for that much. And I DO know a lot about that airplane. You should see the intricate hand detail on it, it is a work of art. The buyer paid what he thought it was worth, and he has a damn nice airplane.

David Reid

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

Shaun,

Fork is out!!! Answer the question....do you still have to heat and deform the inlet to get the gear to properly retract? Yes, the pics of your gear is impressive. What kills me is that there is no way in H*ll that that gear is stock. You're pretty slick...you tell all about what is included in the kit and then post a pic showing a highly detailed gear that you fail to mention is NOT available from Yellow Aircraft. Tell us, are all those detail pieces available from Yellow? Poor Joe Smuck...what is he going to think when the kit arrives and the gear does not look like yours. All we ask as modelers is to be honest and show us EXACTLY what we get. Get Jack to update his web site!!!

I've seen the new Yellow F-16 and all of the mods are welcomed, BUT, there are still some left over engineering issues that need to be worked out. BV's parts just fit like a glove and work right out of the box... If I break a part who do I call for a spare? No one can get Yellow to answer the phone. BV has a turbine install kit as an option, engineered to fit. Does Yellow? At the major jet events BVM is there in full force, carrying almost his full shop to the show. Where is Yellow?!? What you get with a BVM product is more than just a great kit---you get MAJOR support that no other manufacturer has yet to match.

Kevin

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

OK now that I found this arguement I am going to step into it for a minute.


Three weeks before Superman I damaged the wing on my Phantom...... actually I tore the shiznit out of it..... On the Monday morning after I got home from the event I called BVM, talked to Bob within 2 minutes, and had a wing, inlet cowl, and the nose gear formers ordered. They arrived Wednesday morning, yes they cost me some bucks but they fit just like the old parts, and I got the airplane (with a lot of work) flying again for Superman. The main gear in the wing was damaged as well, and it was sent back to BVM with Tom Dodgen as he was at the event when I piled the airplane up. It was repaired and back to me within 7 days. Back in the old days when I was building my Y/A F-16 I could not even get the scale gear because they were back ordered. I built the airplane crammed some spring airs in it and flew it for a few flights then hung it from the ceiling in my shop where it still hangs, my BVM planes all fly and keep flying even if I break a part or whatever because I have the support and spare parts that BVM offers. My hobby time is limited because of my business so when I head to the shop I want to maximize the time I get to spend modelling. I have built models from all of the manufacturers that Shaun mentioned earlier PLUS a few and feel like I know what quality is. Fly what you like but don't criticise the guys that choose to fly BVM.

David Reid

Sign your name if you really have something to say!

Shaun Evans

Kevin,

Wow! That one really covered all bases! So, lemme get this straight: Now, you can't get replacement parts from Yellow? when did that happen? So, I guess these parts I've been getting (ffor myself and customers) are just mirages? To answer your way far-afield comment about the fact that BV has a turbine install kit and Yellow doesn't, well, so far, I've had NO problems getting my stuff to run a turbine. I use Tamjets. Oh, sorry, I'll answer the question: No, you don't have to deform the inlet. I'm sorry, but after re-reading your post, I have a very difficult time believing that you've seen the new kit. In person, at least. Quick, what are the engineering 'problems' you're thinking of? I never spoke ill of BV's engineering, but if something in our kit isn't as well engineered as his, does that make it a 'problem?' That doesn't sound biased?

Anyway, let's stay on the subject (a little). Are we talking about airplane kits now, or who shows up where? I don't know why you're talking to me about BV's support reputation. You're preaching to the choir. On more than one occasion, I've been on the receiving end of BV's on-site support, and I love it. Don't pretend that BV never has parts out of stock, though. What mook would try to slide that one by? Every manufacturer has times when they don't have a certain item. Anecdotal evidence about how someone ordered a part a while back, and the guy didn't have it in stock, well, that's just blah-blah-blah. And for whom are you speaking when you say that 'nobody' can get Yellow to answer the phone?

Sounds to me like you're just fishing now. Now, your criticizm is that I showed a pic of my scaled-out gear and I'm trying to 'trick' someone?? LOL, those gear have been on pics many times, and there has been discussion on what they are and how they got that way. Just gotta do a little research. I don't mind all the Yellow bashing just cuz I said our new Falcon is better (which it still is, BTW :-)), but please don't ever say you're not biased!

Stop acting like I'm standing here saying that BVM is an inferior company to Yellow. My comments were specific to one airplane. I stand by the comments, because a side-by-side comparison backs my comments up. So don't hate the player, hate the game!

David R is correct, nobody should criticize what someone else chooses to buy. People should buy what they like. And don't criticize people just for disagreeing with you (as long as they're talking from first-hand experience, wink-wink).

Kevin, I'll debate you on this for as long as they keep this thread open. Just be nice, and we'll have fun doing it.

God bless,