Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

I have a New never run Ram750 Plus -Air Start that is in my SM Gripen.It has been turned down to 18 Lbs for now.We are planning on a Maiden Sunday provided mother nature is good to us.I went to 2 different Dive Shops today & neither had any of the smaller Scuba tanks at the moment.I would like to avoid lugging one of the big scuba tanks to the field.I'd also like to avoid lugging a big 10-20 gallon portable air tank out as well if I can.I of course can go out tommorrow if need be & buy either a air tank or scuba tank

My question is this-Can my Ram750P be spun up good enough with my new Black & Decker 18 volt blower-which has 200 mph velocity or must I use direct air drawn in thru the start box?Bare in mind that on the Gripen it has very easy access to put the blower right up the turbine with the inner thrust tube not installed.My understanding is that most are flying their Gripens w/o the tube anyways.I'm sure many of you have Ram Air Starts currently or have had them in the past & in turn will know quite well about this subject at hand.Thank you in advance for your help.



Steve

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Steve,

I've never started a RAM that way, but we start AMT's using a blower all the time. We use gas powered blowers, but the 18V electric one might be OK. On the AMT's, you need to get the RPM over about 6K to get the ECU to start the kero., but the engine doesn't care how you do it. I can't imagine that an air start RAM would be that different.

All you do is blow into the turbine (with the gass off initially) until the RPM is up to 3 or 4K. Then stop the air and start the gas and glow while the turbine spins down. As soon as the propane ignites and stays lit, hit the air again and just spool the turbine up until the kero. starts coming in and lights. Keep the air on until the turbine is above 20K or so, and it should be good to go from there.

Good luck and let us know how it goes with the Grippen.

Bob

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

Bob

Thanks for the great info!! We'll give that a go Sunday.It seems tho however for better peace of mind I had better get me a portable air tank atleast . I certainly would hate to get out there Sunday & set up only to realize that my blower won't spin it up fast enough for start up


thanks,Steve

JetflyerJ

My Feedback: (67)

Man be careful that sounds a bit dangerous ................

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

I been sitting here thinking the same thing.It sounds alot more involved to get a start up using the blower so I think for the reason of safety & and ease of operation I will just go get me a portable air tank tommorrow.I think a 20 gallon should be more than sufficient for some flights on Sunday.Then I will get a small scuba tank once they are back in stock at the local dive shop.


Steve

JetflyerJ

My Feedback: (67)

that's my Boy

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

Bob's comments about AMT's is right on......no problem starting my Pegasus or Mercury using my Makita blower.......actually might be the best since the starts are cool, and if you get a wet one, it just blows right out.....

To save ECU battery juice, I often give my JetCats a blower boost during Wisconsin cold weather startups, once the kero comes on......

Never got into RAM's, so no comment on that brand....

If your blower is not getting it on, ECU just shuts down due to a slow acceleration error........

If you haven't worked with airstart before, though, probably not a good time to start with a blower, until you are familiar with the drill......

Tom

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

Tom

Thanks for the Great additional advice.I am definately gonna just start it the proper way & not complicate the system so to speak .I am trying in every way to start off on the right foot as this is my first turbine aircraft to fly out of my fleet [8D]


Steve

Randy M.

My Feedback: (38)

Try http://www.divesales.com/ I Got an 80 cu. ft. tank with first stage regulator for less than $200 to my door. They have every tank size imaginable. Free shipping. Just call the guy and tell him what you are doing, he'll get you what you need.

I've started my Mercury many times with a blower. I even used my kirby vaccum once(in blower mode) just to see if it would do it.

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

Randy


Thanks for the lead on the Dive site ! I'm gonna look them up right now.

Steve

AHMET

Small scuba tanks are ak but they dont hold to much air in them evrey 10 start You have go back scuba place get a big and small tank and transver hase thak you need.
I dont want hot stars with low air had peressure shut be 135-150 psi

Sorry a bout my bad engilish good luck

Ahmet






RAM lover

Lt. Dan

My Feedback: (21)

In theory, its no different than performing an in-flight start on a full-size engine.

Hey Tom, I didn't realize they flew jets so far north! (I'm from Ashland)

Mace

My Feedback: (21)

I am glad someone made a post about this topic. I built a homemade turbine out of a turbocharger and start it every time with a leaf blower. It would be nice to forget about the heavy scuba tank. Does anyone know how to build an accumulator to fill scuba tanks? I will try to start my AT-180 the same way.

"MACE"

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

Ashland!! Now that's some serious arctic up there.....no R/C jets up there, just hoochie-koochie in the sauna with them Finlander gals.....

Down here in the sub-tropical southern part of the state, flying season ends for us when the kero solidifies, and that only happens for a couple of days in January......


Tom

Lt. Dan

My Feedback: (21)

Woah, this man knows what he's talking about! We used to give out Sauna Pet Rocks at our family reunions. (my grandfather on my father's side is from Finland)

Madison might as well have been Miami to us. It was mind boggling when they weren't buried in snow by November.

sasktag

Ahsland, Wisconsin you say. We drove through there last winter on our way to the snowmobile races in Eagle River. I have to ask, where the heck do you find enough open space to fly RC? Nothing but trees for miles and miles.

Lt. Dan

My Feedback: (21)

There's a LOT of open farm land up in those parts. My brother is really into RC, but there isn't an AMA club within 100 miles of them!

I'm trying to convince my parents to clear out some land to make a landing strip for when I'm visiting.

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

ORIGINAL: Lt. Dan


Yup.......90 inches by Christmas was the deal back in the 60's....used to have a gal, down the road a piece from Ashland, in Iron Belt, that Finnish mining metropolis, where everyone was a first cousin of Otto Lappi, Fern Walta, or Mika Hakainen, although there were a few Tyroleans thrown in just to freshen up the gene pool, every now and then........

Spent allot of time trying to get the SU carbs on the Ragtop Triumph to vaporize any fuel, and then when it got rolling, seemed like it high-centered every 100 yds......back in those days, snowplow=snowshovel.........[]

Sasktag, you are right about the trees.......but, perfect place to throw on a pair of 1/3 scale Cub floats on a Facet 2300, and make use of the 5000 feet of runway, right off your pier.....

Tom

unknown

I think for an external engine setup like the hotspot or kangaroo jets it would be OK to use a blower. But for an internal engine setup. the blower would have to be too close to the compressor to be effective and god forbid the compressor stop turning during startup the fuel pump will still pumps fuel to the stall burning engine. Its very dangerous.

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

I hear ya there.Thanks a bunch for all the great advice & guidance on this important topic.As mentioned before this is my first turbine jet . I am doing everything I can to insure that it is a safe & successful task.I have learned alot in this great forum to help with my progession with my turbines.I hope that 2005 will bring many happy successful flights for me ,I am definately looking very forward to finally getting stick time & feeling the rush that comes with it

I have 2 scuba pony tanks on the way to me currently ,I decided that I didn't wanna go thru modifying a luggy 20 gallon portable air tank and felt it would be far more easier to just opt for the Pony Scuba tanks.I didn't get the Gripen get up on her maiden yesterday for the reason of not wanting to risk trying to start my Ram750P with the blower.So with that in mind we will fly her after the holidays-namely the first week in Janurary .I'll have the Scuba tanks by then & all my contracts behind me with my business.I'll have a month off after the holidays do nothing but get everything ready & fly fly fly [8D]Merry Xmas guys & thanks again for the great help


Steve

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

The ECU will shut the fuel pump off if there is no case pressure or RPM -depending which it is measuring.

Steve... have you run your RAM on a test bench? It's kinda the recommended route - especially for your first turbine, so you get used to the start procedure, and you get used to the sounds the engine makes as it goes through the start sequences as well as the readings on your data terminal. With an airstart, your hands are going to be very busy the first few times until you get used to the sequence. With everything out in the open on a test bench, it is a great place (and safe place) to get to learn your new engine.
It would also be a good place to experiment with the blower because either it will start, or it won't - no abnormal risks involved.

Soundls like everything is already installed in the Grippen, so maybe I am too late with this. Just trying to help you stack the deck in your favor. I hope everything goes well - and uneventful!

Ehab

My Feedback: (44)

Steve:

Just do it right man!!! Get a Scuba tank or a small sears compressor and run the engine on a bench first. A wet start can cost you $$$$$$$$$.

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

Nony,

Thanks for the tip but yeah everything is already mounted firmly & neatly.I'd rather not disturb the setup now.I do not plan on even gambling with trying to use a blower now besides after some more thought I wanna use air from the Scuba tank cycled thru my Ram startbox so everything can be monitored 100% with startup

Ehab,

The Pony Scuba tanks are on the way & will be here this week.I already have all the turbine components firmly mounted neatly in my Gripen so I don't want to take them back out now.I will remount the turbine with the correct spacing in relation to the pipe during the holidays & proceed with the maiden thereafter with everything correct & in hand.Certainly a bench run would much easier to check everything .My Ram is brand new -everything was new & still sealed when I bought it.Thanks for the good tip Ehab


thanks ,Steve

Ehab

My Feedback: (44)

Hi steve:

I am just looking after your own interest. I have run a lot of the original air start ram 750 and 1000. Many times I had wet starts (most on kangaroos, hence no problems) especially when brand new or have not run for a long time and the last shut down was not done correctly. Any way good luck.

Steve S

My Feedback: (54)

Ehab

Ohh please don't think for one second that I don't appreciate you looking after my interest.I really do thank you for the good helpful advice ,especially when it comes to knowing quite a bit about the Ram 750's & 1000's.


Thanks again,Steve