ok eddie

>>>>> Spray the whole
plane down while its running and I am fairly sure nothing will happen but a big stinkey mess.. >>>>

your right....i just went out and started a turbine and then sprayed her down with a gallon of jet a......and all i got was one big stickey mess

NOW WHAT ???

I never thinked about hot fueling, 3 or 4 flights per weekend is enough
for me, with plenty of chat with friends in between... not to say that a lot of people in the club need help and it is logical to spent a little of our time helping them.

Just my 0.01 Real, Enrique

For anyone doing hot-fueling - please also consider where you are doing it...

Last time anyone hot-fueled whlie I was flying, they parked their aircraft 15 to 20ft away from me ; since they were over 200ft away from their fire extinguisher my caller decided to walk over to them to suggest that they might want to keep their extinguisher a little closer to them while refueling, "just in case". Nice thought on his part, except .... since they parked directly upwind from me, very close by, and running for a long time while fueling, I'm now totally choking in their exhaust fumes ; my eyes are watering so much that I can hardly see my own aircraft in order to keep flying it... I daren't move backwards out of the way since I know another guy who just landed has parked his aircraft right behind me and I might step on it if I move, so instead I start yelling at these guys to move their refueling ... but since their engine is still running and making loads of noise they can't hear a thing I'm yelling... and since my caller left my side I can't ask him to help me out...

... all of which could have been avoided with just a little consideration of where to do the refueling.

Ok, time for a positive outlook..

If you don't "hot fuel" you can take more coffee breaks...............yeah, I like that!

Talk about something to worry about.... That plane "Large scratch built sport jet by Eddie Lazono not Eddie Weeks" what happen was
the main fuel valve was left open... I have done this... more than once... The result was when air
was shot into the engine to spin it up a mist of Jet A drifted out the back end. I sniffed it .. hahha.. and sure
enough it was fuel... Normally we pick up the plane and get all the fuel out of the engine.. But the
plane was just to large to do this... So I told them to go ahead and I will man the fire extinguisher
The result was of course a some what warm start... not bad enough for me to put out..
Some how during the startup lots of fuel made its way into the tail pipe then into the double wall
pipe... When I pushed the plane up the hill with the engine running, like Sean said, lots of fuel 10-20 oz
poured out the back of the plane onto the plywood... I stuck my head in the plane to see if the fuse was full
of fuel also, but it was dry...

Now think about this... The engine is running, fuel is getting blown by the exhaust out of the plane,
a lot more is just pouring all over the ground.. I mean how bad can it get.. ?

Nothing happened... The plane flew fine...

My point behind all this is.... I can not think of one failure or screw up during a hot fuel, that has
more chances of fire than what I just described... Thus my conclusion that hot fueling not a hazard in anyway..

Eddie Weeks

I'm in complete agreement, there was a ton of fuel pouring out the back of that airplane, I just didn't want to over state it.

Turbulence, I can't answer for whether someone is not being courteous. That's a different issue. Someone asked how to hot fuel, I answered. End of story. If it was dangerous, it would largely not be allowed. Those that don't like hot fueling, are the guys that have the least need to do it. Reminds me of "old foggie" at my local field. Hot Fueling is "hip" "cool" , you know, like those tatoos on the back of those girls, or the nose rings in the local mall rats

Just kidding, I like to do it, so do others I fly with. I can't answer for someone doing it without a fire ext handy. I don't agree or disagree with that as I don't think you are likely to have a fire while doing it. I just don't see any danger in it. A wet start is far more dangerous to the model, and a crash is even that more far dangerous. A model airplane fire while fueling is not dangerous in my book as it's not going to harm anyone (too many of the old foggies will be saving your ***** so they can tell everyone how dangerous you are) interestingly though, that's not going to happen while you are hotfueling, it's gonna happen when you are trying to start a ram.

Sean

Eddie, Clearly the procedures and practices of the RAF and BOAC, BA (my own aviation background) etc are not shared in the US, Its your choice, good luck to you.


Not everyone, fortunately, has the same attitude to safe flight ops. as some who have become involved in this thread. A couple of weeks ago I watched a TV programme on crash investigation (one of a series and quite well done) and the featured accident was a US major's MD80 which crashed on its landing at a US city (Arkansas?) whilst trying to land in a thunderstorm, killing many pax. and the captain. The NTSB investigator appeared and he showed how this was, or used to be, fairly standard practice in the US and proved his point with a radar trace of a major airport with a severe thunderstorm actually over the airport but aircraft were still flying approaches and landing ! In British practice landing or departing in a TS is not even considered, at least in my experience. That a 10,000 hour captain should fly into such weather when alternate airports were available, is almost beyond belief. He and his colleagues had done it many times before and got away with it, it got him in the end. Familiarity breeding contempt.

The NTSB investigator concluded that the flight ops. policy for flight into severe weather of this and several other US airlines was severely flawed and has since been changed as a direct result of this accident. Pity it took a major accident to highlight the problem when the possibly severe consequences of such operations are already well known in much of the aviation world.

We make our own luck in this business.

Now, back to my Hawk !

Regards,

David Gladwin.

I still claim newbie status, so the idea of hot fueling had never entered my mind.

however, risk management is something I am familiar with to a limited extent with full size aircraft, in my vocational part time career, and in my day job.

People speed in cars and get away with it most of the time. When they don't it hurts.

People drive too fast in fog and get away with it most of the time. When they don't it hurts.

In either of the above situations, when people get hurt a raft of justitified critique hits the guilty party, they are shown to have unnecesarily increased the risks, and have paid consequences as a result.

There may be good reasons for hot fueling, and if the risk of an incident can be managed to the least level, and the most likely consequence is safety and success, then I suppose it is acceptable. There are some very experienced people on here, who am I to disagree?

However, spilled fuel is dangerous, not just from a flashpoint and fire perspective, but, I recall reading the review of a Facet trainer in RCJI that had to have an emergency landing as spilled fuel killed the ECU but not immediately.

What would you say to a jet liner that took off having been overfilled with kerosene, and the fuel dripped off the plane on take off, would you be happy? But what is the difference between that and a model??

I am not sure what temperatures the full size aircraft work at, but is the exhuast efflux a similar temperature to ours?

I recall the horrifying last flight of the Concorde. If the temperatures are similar, then whilst I do agree the worst thing about kerosene is the smell rather than the flash point, but just consider what could happen.

Now if hot refueling is done with the right procedures and with the risks fully appreciated and managed, then in theory it should be OK. BUT there is clearly more risk involved, temperature, moving parts etc etc, so if it is not necessary, then it should be avoided in my humble view.

For me, the only hot fuelling I could really envisage is the overflow tank to increase the air time following start up, but even then I am not sure about the real advantages.

No offence to anyone, not trying to be a killjoy!

Gazzer

Guys

Apart from letting the model cool down between flights I need to cool down too! GSR and the others are right. Hot fuellers like to be seen as cool jet dudes. It must add another little frission of excitement to their day! I hope jet flying is about more than trying to stuff as many flights as possible into a day. I suppose I am getting older but if I can have 3 of 4 flights in an afternoon I am very happy!

I like to take some time after each flight and think about, and indeed enjoy the flight again in my mind,check the model over, have a coffee, chat with the guys, accept compliments on my flying skills!!

It probably is not dangerous given in terms of fire risk given all that has been said, in my view the biggest risk is in rushing anything to do with these models which are complex wee beasties.

John Agnew

I have hot fueled many times in the past but in the past two years have pretty much stopped doing it. Anyone that knows me knows that I fly a lot at an event it is not unusual for me to burn 30+ gallons of fuel in a three day weekend. What changed my mind on hot fueling was a certain attitude exhibited by one of the posters in this topic regarding hot fueling, it wwas the hell with everyone else I have the frequency pin and I will not turn it over. I was on the same frequency as this individual and after his third hot fueling in a row I demandede the pin so I could fly one flight. After that flight I turned the pin back over and changed the crystal on my airplane to avoid the inconsiderate attitude that this individual displayed. I take a minute between flights now and if someone else is on my frequency I become aware of it early on at the event. I would hazard a bet that without hot fueliing I will still burn more fuel at an event than most anyone else. I doubt that you will have a fire if you hot fuel but I there is still an increased statistical probability that it can happen.

Hot Fuel away, your engine will last longer if you like to fly a lot.

The start up on these turbines is where they get hurt the most and is most critical. Ask Carlos, AMT, FTE, John Redman anyone that knows these turbines in and out, Just be very careful about it though and do it in a safe area.


Johnny Hernandez

Here's a picture of Eddie and the jet that was leaking all the fuel out the rear. he was just pushing down on the vert stab and letting it drain out. No fire whatsoever, and you gotta know it was HOT back there.

Can't believe anyone would accept a fuel leak such as that , or indeed any other. !!!

And actually its not that hot at the back of the aircrafrt, you can spray jet fuel into the tailipe, just aft of the engine exhaust nozzle, for smoke, and the fuel almost certainly won't burn, but fuel is a potential source of fire and its presence in the airframe as a result of a leak is totally unacceptable.

Fuel leaks of any sort should require an immediate shutdown and the leak cured before any further attempt at engine start, pretty basic airmanship !

Regards,

David Gladwin

Clearly things are more different down in Australia than here even besides driving on the wrong side of the road. Reading what Eddie took the time to tell us about this particular "leak" would prove that it wasn't really a leak but rather a flooded engine. I don't even know why I respond to half the stuff I respond to here. I guess it's to keep my abiding fans in total entertainment amused by my complete and utter continued finding that my hypocricacy has no bounds and I will argue with a dead horse when given the opportunity.

Hey - I totally resent being called a dead horse. Mind you, it's not usually the whole horse that people compare me to.

Since you want an argument tho - get a cloo and lern how to spel, wood yoo ? "I breath balsa dust..." indeed. It's "breathe" you num-nuts, not "breath". Jeez. Wered you get your edumacation ?

Gordon, I breath it and Breathe it Gordon, arguing with you always takes my breathe away. I'm in San Jose today LOL, I'd argue with you in person if I had the time. I'm at the Hilton convention center

For some reason I try to edit that signature line for over a month, and it won't let me. I edit it, hit ok, and I get an error message. Anyway, knowing it annoys people makes me happy

OK guys....
It looks like some Hot fuel and some do not. It seems those that do not have safety concerns, and that is a good thing we should aways try to operate these turbines in a safe manner. Those that do seem to think it is a safe practice. Aside from some rude behavior contributed to Hot Fueling it does not seem to be causing any issues or accidents. I only started this thread to get advice from those who have done it to make sure If I were to do it I would be doing it in a safe manner.

There are many time at the field I fly at when It may be only me and one other guy that came to watch me fly and help out. It is not too often but for those times that I am there and just want to get back in the air (since there is no one really to BS with) then this sounds like a good option for me if it can be done safely. Now currently I am the only Turbine at my club and so if there are very many people there at all, most of the time they let me have the air to myself and when I am done we all shoot the Sh&* and talk about the jet for a little while till I am ready to do it again.

I go to fly and when I am there and not shooting any SH&* then why not save a little where and tear on the turbine and get me back up flying ASAP.

This post was not created to start a debate. If you don't like to hot fuel, then don't. If you do I doubt reading this thread will change your mind and just do it safe. I have never done it but I may if the situation arises where I think it would be useful and safe. If it works OK for me then so be it, If I don't like it or feel unsafe while doing it I will not do it again.


Thank you all for your input.
Dave

So all in one sentance you admit the fuel will most likely not ignite, even in the hottest part of the plane
we can find, but you still say its unacceptable...

Fascinating.. !!!!


Eddie Weeks

Hey Dave,

Just make sure you have a One way festo on your third Line ( fill line )


Johnny Hernandez

Sean, Just for what its worth mate and myself being an Aussie also I thought you might get a kick out of the reason we do drive actually on the left side (besides being upside down)......
Iam not 100% sure of the facts here but the story sounded pretty good to me!
I heard a long while ago that the real reason that the Scots, Irish, English and Aussies etc etc. drive on the left now days is that it goes way back in history to pre car, even pre firearm days in good old Europe.... Apparently in the old days of horse travel and when one only had a sword to use for self protection it was advisable and customary to always approach any on coming and unknown traveler on the road/trail etc with utmost caution and always pass on the left side just in case you may need to draw your sword in self protection... [sm=idea.gif]

Cheers-

Sorry Eddy, the hottest part of the aircraft is not the exhaust, where cooling air has been added to the very hot combustion gas, its inside the combustion chamber. Even on a reheated engine, afterburning, injecting neat fuel into the exhaust gas still needs a source of ignition (a glowplug or hot streak) to get it to light. BUT we still know of some aircraft fires (I have personally had two inflight fires on jets) that have been caused by fuel leaks so its something we try to avoid and great care is taken in fuel handling and avoidance of leaks ! However, someone recently wrote on this site that his smoke fuel had actually ignited in the tailpipe, giving an afterburner effect, so its all a bit unpredictable, and who has not seen a wet start, with sheets of flame, on a model jet, which could be a very good ignition source of spilled fuel ! I still believe that the ONLY place for fuel is in the tanks, and any leaks, spills or any fuel whch is where it should not be should, must, be cleaned up, period !


Hands up any fullsize jet operator, pilot or engineer who would sign off or accept an aircraft for flight, or even an engine run, with fuel, any fuel, sloshing around in the cowls or indeed any other place on or under, the aircraft. (and please tell me your operator so I can avoid flying with them !!)

And yes Sean some things ARE done differently down her in Australia, (and in the UK) like running the worlds's safest and most profitable airline, Qantas !


Now, to run that AMTNL Olympus HPES, fire extinguisher at the ready, just in case ! !

Regards,

David Gladwin.

Watched a guy do a hot fuel once. When he turned the pump on the back of the engine began to glow. After a few seconds the ECU got the fuel flow back under control. After seeing this I decided it was not good for the engine.

Steven

Ya what he said!!!!

HOT FUELING

Saves on the # heat cycles and start cycles on your turbine.

Allows you to squeeze in one more flight nearing dusk.

It must be safe 'cause DB has not banned the practice.

Bypasses wasted time on preflight and battery checks.

Oh yes those 400mahr packs good for 6 flights or more.... unless you have a bad or binding servo drawing 5-10 times typical current.

just my .02