Matt

You are absolutely correct that Joe Amato, Carl Mulroney, Terry Nitsche and Jim Hiller are doing superb job to help us but non of those people you mentioned submitted the proposal in question to AMA. See my post above and follow the URL to the AMA document that will tell you who made the proposal. Now you know “the rest of the story”

Ben
AMA 9119

If EC is going to the trouble to have a "liaison" then they should use them, and not take any action unless the SIG Liaison has first reviewed the propsal, whether or not the SIG came up with it??

Just an idea.

I personally disagree with the above. It is IMHO that the waiver process in itself is a very good thing! I would say the above is more of a reason to further regulate the Unlimited than to deregulate the turbines. I think everyone needs to come to the rational that Turbines ARE different and do require some form of regulation and safety management. The potential for serious bodily injury or property loss is significantly higher with turbine ops as opposed to reciprocating engines. Fire risk is a serious issue we all need to be concerned with. True, the heavy racers are just as dangerous and should be put under some sort of regulation as well.
To put the waiver process in perspective one only has to attend a jet meet to see the quality of todays aircraft and pilot skill levels. Mishaps are minimal and the aircraft are built top notch. I can tell you I feel more at ease at a jet rally over most other meets, because of the waiver process the newbie pilot, uneducated and unskilled modelers are all but eliminated from attending these meets. Thats not to say there is not a few that manage to slip through the cracks but for the most part, wavered turbine pilots are skilled, competent and educated.
I agree whole heartedly wit Matt that we are truly lucky to have the AMA, JPO and the like that work to establish policies that get us the coverage that we need to enjoy this hobby. But...I think there are times when some have their head too far up their A** to see the light of day and it makes you wonder what they are thinking.
From a Turbine CD point of view the new Flight Demo rule is useless! Too vague, too many holes and too confusing for us or the applicant to understand. IMHO they need to scrap the whole thing and either stick with what they had or work with the JPO to enhance the process.

my .05
Todd

LOL! What do you really think, Todd!!

I do agree the quality of flying has dramatically improved in the last few years. Now most mishaps are just landing and deadstick stuff.

THe "flyaways" used to really scare me, where a guy took off at full power lost the plane as it got away from him and never pulled the throttle back....I think those guys have weeded themselves out!!

The glass really is half full here, we just need to make it even better.

I agree with Todd. I think things should be left alone. As a new waiver holder I spent the better part of a year to get my papers in order. At the time I thought that this was a complete useless screw up of a rule. I did a lot of learning last year. I am glad for the wait. It made me a better pilot because of it. Now I treat this new framed certificate with pride and respect.
I think the rules would be better served to be left the same. The new way will be just plain stupid..
As I stated in another forum. The main concern I have about the whole safety thing is the way these jet events are being conducted. I agree in the fact that jet pilots are among the best in the RC hobby. However sometimes they are too good for their own good. I have seen an invensable type attitude. This in a word is DANGEROUS. This is were the event holders need to step in and stop the stupid stuff.
I also believe that a lot of work could be done on field layout for safety. I have seen some very unsafe event all because of layout. More work needs to be done with this by the AMA. Or maybe they should leave this alone.(they might screw this up as well) Maybe the CDs should police this better. Not worry about successfull and worry about safety.
TAE

From the AMA webpage Ghost Rider pointed out above:

"D. Mathewson provided an item outlining JPO’s concern over the above-mentioned proposal. He pointed out that JPO had submitted a proposal for accepted turbine waivers to the Safety Committee for review. Maroney stated the committee voted not to implement JPO’s recommendations; however, the document being proposed by the Safety Committee can be viewed as a combination of ideas from JPO, Tiano, and the Safety Committee."

So, am I getting this straight? Frank Tiano did this?

ET,
You are correct. Dave Mathewson told me the name during our conversation but I didn't want to mention it until the AMA made it public.
Jon

So, who is he to go outside our SIG, the JPO, and mess around? We ended up with some Frankenstein of a proposal, yes?
Am I misinterpreting something here, or is this totally out of line?

Interesting post from "THE GREAT MAN" himself. Take a good look at http://www.bvmjets.com/Safety/safety-nov02.htm and towards the bottom, you will find the following:

"This hobby is very important to those of us who have made the "investment," so hopefully, we can work through our Jet Pilot's Organization to guide the AMA toward addressing the real issue and come up with a realistic solution . A simple "walk before you run" and a training syllabus program would accomplish the goal of minimizing the crashes"

He could not have stated it any better.

I also 100% agree with him on other issues he mentioned in his post. Take few minutes and read it. The man knows what he is talking about because he is out there with us at jet events.


.....ghost rider......out......

(Still waiting for the incoming SCUDS)

Okay I’m going to take a stab at the points and questions.

GHOST RIDER - You are absolutely correct about individuals working outside of the recognized SIG (JPO) It has happened in the past and will most likely happen in the future. In a perfect world we would all pull together towards a common goal. In the AMA’s defense though they represent us all and in the AMA area of this forum there are folks that right in length that the AMA does not listen. So should they listen to individuals? Yes, because we all pay dues. But could they have suggested that they work through JPO, I think so.

LOV2FLYRC – The safety committee did look at the JPO proposal but did not act on it. In addition the AMA had the proposal from the individual previously mentioned. This had been to the EC in its raw form early in the summer and the EC had sent it back to committee for further review. Some how / some where within the AMA a whole new proposal was written and then shared with JPO right before the EC meeting. The stipulation given was that JPO could not discuss it out side of the board. JPO immediately saw many problems with it and reported these. By the time the EC meet JPO had come up with a bullet point paper listing the problems JPO saw. Dave Mathewson, JPO Liaison at the AMA tried very hard to convince the EC but to no avail. It passes 8/4.

I won’t even get into Docs. 567 – 570 needles to say you see many of the same problems JPO saw. There are many concerns with these new procedures, but the saving grace here is that it has a 12-month shelf life. It also is so cumbersome that very few will be able to use it. You need to also remember that it DOES NOT replace the current process but is in addition to.

MR MATT – JPO understand the process of communicating with the AMA and the AMA gave the procedures to us.

JPO’s liaison to the AMA is JPO Board Member Art Arro, Dist. II
The AMA’s Liaison to JPO is EC member Dave Mathewson

All communications to the AMA go through these channels. This also includes the JPO proposal and it did make it out of Committee.

Again the AMA was shown that the new procedures had many flaws. There was even a conference call with the JPO Pres., Art Arro, Dave Mathewson, and 2 AMA officials. But the AMA still would not bend. The AMA believes that they are helping jet pilots and for whatever reason cannot see the problems.

THUNDER JET – “Maybe the CDs should police this better. Not worry about successful and worry about safety.”

This statement is right on target. We must all work together to enforce and abide by the rules currently in place. When we see something wrong then speak up. We must police our self so that the AMA doesn’t feel the need to.

Now to sum it up, JPO is working very hard to try and correct issues like this. We were blind sided by this as all Jet Pilots were. JPO was told about it after the fact and despite our pleas it passed. The AMA also asks us not to write in forms like this, but I feel that you have the right to know. The AMA sees the Jet Community as a fractured bunch incapable of speaking with unity. They will never give Jet Pilots the respect I feel we deserve unless we put the past behind us, speak with one voice, and agree to disagree occasionally. I will ask you this as you read these words are you currently a JPO Member and if not why. America is a great country and our freedom of speech is one of our most precious gifts, but it can be used to unify as well as destroy. We must pull together as a group with ONE voice if we are going to be productive and respected. The AMA is watching and our actions will speak louder than words. Join JPO and help as a collective effort to educate all involved.

Dawn

Dawn

Thanks for the detailed explanation and thanks to you and the rest of the JPO board members that took up the thankless job of representing us.

I would second your suggestion and plea others to join JPO so we could speak with one voice. I know my late friend Bill Ellis (may his soul REST IN PEACE) would not be pleased with the direction things are heading now.

I am not here to point fingers because this is "not time to lay wreath for yesterdays crime". We should listen to great minds like BV (see http://www.bvmjets.com/Safety/safety-nov02.htm) and our elected past and present JPO officers and give them our 100% support.

Should we sometimes agree to disagree, I definitely think so. The bottom line should be to work towards nurturing this high tech aspect of hobby that we have all embarked on.

Again, "United we stand, but divided we fall".

I now rest my case.


........ghost rider..... out.....

Dawn,
Thanks kindly for the response as it does clarify some points in question. I cannot agree more that we all need to join together in unity if we are going to enhance the process governed by the AMA. I disagree with the AMA vision that we are a fractured bunch that are incapable of working together to achieve one goal, that being the safe operation of our aircraft and the commitment to the policies required to keep our hobby intact.
It is my belief that the jet community is one of the most united segments of the sport and we all want the same thing, the allowable existence to continue to fly turbines! Regulated though it may be, for good reason! Sure, you can go out and get a private license to fly full size aircraft but that does not mean you are qualified to fly an F-16.
I am not in disagreement that the the AMA needs to govern this facet of the hobby but for the EC to ignore any submissions by the JPO, the jet pilots voice but yet institute a new waiver program that has more holes than swiss cheese is downright criminal. Does the AMA not believe that the JPO voice is strong in unity? That the recommendations coming from the JPO represent a large portion of the Jet Pilots views? Why do they feel the views of one man speak louder than the JPO?
Todd

Why do they feel the views of one man speak louder than the JPO?
funny you should ask that

I ask that same question and I am still waiting for an answer