After winning a huge victory against AMA, and getting turbines up to 75 pounds allowed in the experimental class, I can't help but notice there are still only 23 models certified to fly in the experimental class, and 17 pilots. Five of the planes belong to one guy alone.

Zero turbines.

Anybody plan to actually take advantage of this latest score we got, getting turbines allowed into the Experimental class?

Yeah

He is incorrect. 75 pounds in competition.

We turbine geeks have allot of catching up to do when it comes to scratch built giants.......those 5 scratch-built giant scale beauties belong to my buddy, Carl Bachhuber.......here is his latest......ready for the maiden.....

I have heard a rumour that one of the other Wisconsin guys on the experimental list for his magnificent B-25, Paul LeTourneau will have a giant scale jet this year....haven't heard what model......all scratched, of course.....no preformed plastic for those guys.....

Tom

He's awesome, great stuff. I like the Experimental Class, I feel more comfortable around those models than some of the 54 pound stuff I have seen. You have a second set of eyes checking things out, you know? What's so funny(?) though is all the people screaming about how restricted they feel(this has been going on for years, even before turbines) and yet, there are only a dozen or so people who took advantage of the experimental program.

As far as I can tell, there is no AMA competiion that now would allow a plane over 55 pounds, certainly not aerobatic (5 kg), pylon, and not scale (55 pounds wet)

3.4. RC Sport Scale models that are flown outdoors
shall weigh no more than 55 pounds, ready for
flight, including fuel.

So I do not know of any AMA RC competition (not to be confused with an AMA event like a rally) that you can fly an experimental at.

Events like Top Gun are not AMA competitions per se. It would appear that Frank/Top Gun "board" makes his/their own rules (I asked him about this on the other thread but he has not answered yet or did not see it). From the Top Gun rule book:

2. Other than the maximum weight limit of 55 Lbs. imposed by the A.M.A. insurance,
there are no restrictions upon the design, size or power of the model. (clip)

So AMA insurance covers an experimental, flown within the rules (AMA safety code) at an event.

Of course I could be wrong on all of this.

Most of these birds will be scratch built, and that will take time. The big A-10 kit is one of the few kits that if decked out gets into this territory, I gather. With no other kits this size, scratch built will be what's in that size range. I'm sure there are some other kits currently out that if engines were upped a notch in size would be in this area too. But if it's close, say somone picking an engine size that would put them at 60 lbs wet, and do the 'experimental' rules, vs, one notch smaller engine and be 55 wet, no extra rules, I'd wager many guys will go the path of least resistance.

I'm planning on coming in just under the nose of 55, but it is nice to have as a fall back option should I miss the mark.

Last weekend, 19 hours straight, laying up glass on the mold, and the top mold is only half done. I ran out of blocks (swore I had cut enough - need to cut more to cover the nacelles), and called it a day at about 2:30 am. I've got another run to get the glass work done on top of the blocks, that will be another 17-19 hours.... heh, and that just makes the top mold. Point being, it just takes a long time.

The big birds will show up, it just may take a while for people to tackle projects to take advantage of the new rules.

Lance

75 #s ? It could fall out of the air to fast ! Why isn't JPO raising all kinds of HE!! about this? It seem that AMA didn't think this through. It is to dangerous to do this under AMA insurance ! It could ruin it for EVERYBODY! We need to move AMA to the Desert!
(This statement sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?)

I am glad this has happened it will be good for all. Butch

Actually if you read the Experimental requirements in detail you will see that unless the inspector is very forgiving you almost cannot build a model that complies with the rules. It was a very poorly written document in the first place and adding turbines didn't improve it.

AMA Dist 8 exp inspector for about a decade now.

Tom

The AMA Safety Code specifically forbids any model weighing more than 55 pounds to compete in ANY AMA sanctioned Contest. Top Gun IS sanctioned. So, Top Gun does NOT allow heavier than 55 pound aircraft to compete!
The Turbine rule is the same. You can get your 55+ airplane inspected but you CAN NOT fly it in an AMA compeition. Just Demo flights only!
Stupid? Most Certainly! Why AMA feels you will have a greater chance of an accident flying in front of 500 people during a Demo flight rather than the same 500 people during a competition when the spectators are further back, is beyond any of us with half a brain! But, when we keep electing some District VPs or a President now and then, that perhaps haven't flown a model in 25 years or more, what can we expect? We are allowing rules for current pilots to be made by pilots of yesteryear, when the .60 sized Pattern Engine ruled the skies!
FT

Frank.. I know this will not help... but I am with you 1000 %

and I don't agree with very many people.. hahah

Eddie Weeks

Right there with you Frank ! It is funny how people will raise H3LL no matter what. And they bring in lame excuses about some organization and its insurance which doesn't cover squat. And the worst part is they won't even ask a question before they Bit<h! And they are the same guy's that have to ask there wives if they can buy a model or even go out of the house. Yet try to tell everyone else what to do.

Butch Sickels

You could be RIGHT, too?

I thought the whole point of this latest thing(proposed by Bob Underwood?) was to allow experimental class turbines in competition?

"Why AMA feels you will have a greater chance of an accident flying in front of 500 people during a Demo flight rather than the same 500 people during a competition when the spectators are further back, is beyond any of us with half a brain!"

Because people very often comprimise safety when it comes to competition? That winning often becomes the obsession, rather than safety? Dunno, maybe you can ask AMA.

Are you running for office again?

Are you crazy???????

Most would agree I am, but I'm certainly not crazy enough to run for office...

I learned the first time!
It is obvious that the average AMA member does not give 2 craps about rules for competition, all they want is a safe place to fly their Ugly sticks and some insurance to cover their butt if they get in trouble!
In the last election, of 130,000 members, less than 30,000 voted if my memory serves me correctly.
So, you are way smarter than me cause you knew this before I did!

FT

and 25,000 of those that voted are likely of the kind that don't fly, but just lecture everyone else at the field who does

But those average guys are the guys who actually subsidize our insurance. You have to respect the desires of the average schmoo with an Ugly Stick, he wants just what you say, a safe place to fly and insurance, and I think if it REALLY came up for a referendum, don't you wonder if they would want to cover turbines at all? I don't know, but I am sure not confident that the answer would be "sure, I don't mind paying to cover a lot of extra risk for a handful of guys with turbines and a lot more money than me!"

Food for thought.

It was actually only about 25,000 members out of 180,000 who voted!

Yup, all,or most, of the aforementioned is pretty reasonable and probbly true!
However, not to start another thread, we must remember that the Turbine aspect of our Hobby has NOT casused any changes in expenses to AMA, Other than what they have created themselves. Like forms in triplicate for almost everything, mailed back and forth across the continent! For example, the insurance premiums are what they are because of claims paid. No claims as of yet anyuway, have beem paid because of recklessnes or accident or bodily injury, from or with a turbine!
So, IF our average AMA member is concerned about his dues rising, let him be reassured it is not because of turbines.
It has far more to do with the fact that membership numbers are decreasing rapidly, thousands of "park flyers" are not joining in the first place, and the internal expenses are just about overwhelming, to a point that if it continues, I predict we may not have an AMA in another 5 years! Remember, I said IF it Continues as it is NOW.

FT

Oh, I dunno. I've been hearing about the death of AMA for decades now. If you go back and read magazines from the Forties, they say the same thing.
I'm not that worried.
There are SOME duds over at AMA, and some very great people...just like any other organization...but the end result, though sometimes it takes time for a burearocracy of any kind to come around to the right answer, is USUALLY something that satisfies a majority of the constituency. It's not always the answer that pleases an accomplished, vocal minority like competition scale modellers, or turbine flyers, and sometimes, we have to live with that.
Again, I can't help but wonder if it was presented for a vote, if Joe Ugly Stick would just say "Those guys can afford their OWN insurance".

I think we should all encourage Curtis to run for AMA presidents office next round up ..... [X(]

Eff dat!

I don't have the time, the inclination, or the popularity!

Besides...I know Dave Brown. I am pretty happy with him. It's not as easy as we think to do his job. Is he perfect? Nope. But show me someone who will do better. You know, if there WAS someone who could do better, I think HE would be glad to step down, too.

Very often, we THINK there is a simple solution to all of our problems, but this is politics...it's not always that simple. It's all about constant comprimise, as various elements of the constituency all try to get what THEY want, often at cross-purposes to what OTHERS want.
We also tend to delude ourselves as to the power that DB and the president's office actually HAVE. It's really up to the EC, not to the president. And they often disagree completely, the EC is hardly a bunch of old boys who all love each other...

I don't think most care.
Around 3-4 years ago , when the turbine rules were being formulated, DB threatened that, if he didn't get his way he would to go to the membership, which he did in an editorial in MA which said, and I'm paraphrasing slightly: "Do you, the general membership, want to cover turbines, a very small group of modelers who present the greatest risk for huge insurance payouts."
I check the reaction at several clubs, and, to a man, they didn't know what I was talking about. I then sent e-mail's to all the Dist VP to see what was the reaction of their members. They said there was no response or one or two members asked what it was about.
After BD didn't get the response from the membership he wanted, he backed off somewhat.
The membership, as Frank said, just wants a place to fly and some insurance, mostly for the property owner, and isn't interested in the organization at all.
BRG,
Jon