digitech

My Feedback: (10)

[quote]ORIGINAL: rutter the nutter


to much thinner hey

john agnew

Ant

Well, if we didn't experiment how would we make any advances at all? In Scotland it tends to rain and be windy a lot, even in the early morning which makes painting outside a very chancy deal. The adhesion of the paint does not seem to be a problem as you suggest. But, as you are the self professed expert, I must bow to your superior knowledge. BTW I am not advising anyone else to use this method unless they want to but I can see very few disadvantages and a few advantages.

John

Spartan Missile

Thanks John.

I might try to test paint and varnish something and see what it's like after say 10 days curing.
Spill some water & fuel on it etc.

I'm not keen on using solvent based paint spray in the house, and I haven't got room to build a paint booth.

I wonder if B&Q would mix me up a tin of cammo paint ?

747drvr

My Feedback: (5)

This is a proven technique and I plan to use latex on my next project . Do a little searching for anecdotal evidence before you call it a waste of time .

Marc

Big Tony

oohhhh I've only been working with pigments and carriers for only 15 years what would I know ay.

John your only having to experiment because you didn't do any home work ???? this method has been tried and found to be not as good as solvent or epoxy methods multiple times.

Also john is there any chance of you answering a question I've asking you - "how did the scorpion go"

all the best

john agnew

Rut

Ok, I give up! I am hitting my head against the wall. The Scorpion flies great, very nice slow landings, but it need as least 22lbs of thrust or better still 25lbs. The SS is not really enough.

John

Big Tony

Great that the scorpion flies well

Ant

Gordon W

Can you refer us to some of the sources and techniques for the "more suitable" paint systems that you allude to in your post please? So far in this thread you’ve not been helpful.

As an example of how to be helpful, I offer a couple of links to features on painting with emulsion/latex paints written a while ago by Roy Vaillancourt in Model Airplane News and based on his experience from as long ago as 1983 on using these paints.

The first link dated April 2001 is at:

http://209.196.57.93/ME2/dirmod.asp?...A2C73E648A7C57

The second link dated April 2006 is an update with some FAQs answered. It’s a 3-page article but the “continued” link on page 1 doesn’t work and to get to pages 2 and 3, you scroll to the bottom of page 1 and click on the “2”, “3”, or “next” links.

The features have advice on surface preparation, thinning, spray technique and fuel-proofing. They’re written by a successful top scale model designer/builder/flyer, for modellers like the majority of us who are not experts on paints, and appear to cover most positive aspects and pitfalls of an avenue worth exploring.

http://209.196.57.93/ME2/dirmod.asp?...BBB028C27B3815

Whilst I’m in the same helpful frame of mind, here are a couple of other useful (but regrettably off-topic) links I came across whilst finding the above two:

First, a method of strip-planking for the scratch builder in balsa. I’ve used this and it works better than the usual methods which involve trying to precisely match carefully tapered planks:

http://209.196.57.93/ME2/dirmod.asp?...245687EFE69316

Second, a how-to on rolling loops by Quique. Having admired Dave Wilshere’s rolling loop in one of the vids of his CARF Flash, I’ll be reading this feature a few times.

http://209.196.57.93/ME2/dirmod.asp?...DB364E95B61931

Gordon

Big Tony

Wonder if Ian Richardson used b & q silver emulsion and ronseal varnish on his world masters winning f100 CASE CLOSED.

john agnew

Ant

I am afraid you are demonstrating a mind that is closed to any opinion other than your own. No one is saying there is anything wrong with solvent based or two pack paints. The truth is they are harder to handle than emulsion / latex and the object of the exercise is to get a reasonable finish on the model for those of us who are less than expert at painting.

Gordon, thank you for taking the time to post your helpful information. My model is now painted and I can progress with applying the superb decals from Tailormade.

John

747drvr

My Feedback: (5)

I agree . This is one alternative way of painting a model . Nobody was saying that it was the ultimate way and that everyone should stop what they're doing and adopt this technique . I've seen a number of aircraft done this way and talked to the guys who have painted them . That was enough for me to decide to give it a try on my next project . I think it's most suited to muted camo colours . You're not going to get the "mile deep" type finish with latex/emulsion . Keep an open mind Ant !

Marc

Big Tony

???????? I am not close minded at all carry on use what ever you want all I'm saying is there are better and more durable methods just because I think your wasting your time and money that makes me close minded mmmmm pot calling kettle I think. Not being funny john just trying to add some information which is based on 15 years use with all types of inks and paints if your closed to my help then thats fine.

Thanks

All the best

Ant

Big Tony

One final as you don't seem to be open to my experience I'm just completeing a 1.5 million unit run for B & Q no a 25 mic polyprop clear film (600,000 square metres) using solvent ink (half a tonne) NO WATER BASED PAINT ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH WOULD KEY as it was an uncoated product as if it did my company would have had no need for a £200k oxidiser (if you use more than 5 tonnes of solvent based products a year its law to have one) which burns off any solvent fumes. Please take my word for it there are better more durable methods than emulsion John.

As it would be so much cheaper for me to use water based products don't you think I have experimented with most products on most surfaces ?? to save money.

Gordon W

Ant

So far you've told us nothing except that there are better paints than emulsion for the job.

We all knew that anyway, as otherwise we'd all have been using emulsion exclusively for years.

And you also said there were cheaper ones if you knew where to look.

So for the second time of asking, where should we look for these marvellous painting media, and what are they made of? Or are you going to remain tight-lipped and leave us all none the wiser?

FWIW, I always liked cellulose and found it the easiest paint to use on all surfaces. But .. where can you get flexible aircraft-grade colour cellulose these days that doesn't craze when applied on the fabric finish of an aerobatic biplane like my Krier-Kraft in in my avatar?

Gordon

john agnew

Ok

For those of you still interested in using emulsion paint which obviously excludes professor Rutter and comedian Jason I finished the painting on the 339 today and got some of the Tailormade waterslide decals on the model. These went onto the emulsion paint with no problem at all using the Micro Set and Sol solutions, no silvering of the clear carrier. I then gave the decals a coat of matt Ronseal varnish applied with a good quality 1/2" artist's brush to protect the decals from handling damage. I hope to spray a coat of clear over the whole fuselage tomorrow if it is reasonably warm.

Ant I have got your message loud and clear but I do not wish to use solvent / 2 pack paints at the present time. I look forward to you providing a full and detailed explanation of where to obtain these cheaply and the method of application.

John

Spartan Missile

John,

I think that looks really good, well done.

I'm very bad at painting, so the idea of water based spray painting without 2 pack and solvents is very appealling.
I have a project in mind that could use a desert cammo paint job.
I'll give your method a try.

Good luck with the rest of it.

I've seen Ant & Jason's paint jobs, they are beyond my aspirations I'm afraid.

ChuckC

My Feedback: (24)

I've used (God forbid) Createx, water borne "Autoair" - airbrush paints with good results; lasted and I like using it for graphics because I didn't have to suit up for the Isocyanates. I also had an infinite open working time so I can tape and switch colors at leisure. Of course, I clear coated it with an automotive urethane clear, which probably helped the durability quite a lot.

My vote is for - looks very good and can be maintained easy...but then my flying/landing requires more "maintenance" than most...

I say - paint on, let's see it!

Big Tony

John dude use emulsion and then post your results etc on here for the less knowledgeable so they can make an informed decision on which method is best for them I'm sure it will be ok its just it will not be as durable solvent or two pack methods also what concerns me is that with emulsions they do dry very loosely pigment wise so there may be a strong possiblity that after a short exposure to wear the varnish may start to crumble off especally on the sharper edges to test this just place some medium tack selotape or masking tape on a non visible non varnished area then peel see how much is on the tape not much will mean the varnish should be ok for key if its a fair bit well I think the model will be requiring a respray in the near future. Hey may help make the model look weathered.

Professor mmm saying that says alot

Gordon Cellulose IS A SOLVENT based paint obviously which has great key to most surfaces.

All the best

Ant

john agnew

Ant

I have done the masking tape test and no paint has come off.

John

Gordon W

Hi John. Now for some detailed Q's

That's a good price. What's the make and model of the compressor and gun? [/quote]

How much of a step is there at the colour overlap, or did the top colour dry so thin that it was barely discernible? Hmm. Maybe the feather edge from the masking device you used feathered it out completely? Just wondering about the thickness of the paint films when a sharp edge is needed, which will be the case on my forthcoming project with a fair number of hard masked edges.

I've never seen that stuff except in a photo in Ralle's recent series on painting and finishing in Jet Power magazine. He called it by a different name though. Is that available at B&Q too, or does one buy it at an auto paint shop?

Thanks

Gordon

PS. Your 339 looks super. Don't forget to post pics of it with the decals. I have a set of Ralle's decals for my yet-to-arrive Fox-Composites Hawk. Never seen anything as complete as that decal set!

mikuk

Gordon,
The 3M door shut (try auto paint supplier, Morelli possibly in your neck of the woods) is the best way to get very soft edges, always make sure the gun is at right angles to the surface though, if you're a bit cheap like me then fold over normal masking take and tease up evenly all round, experiment and you will find you can vary the amount of feathering. If you want sharp edges then I recommend the Tamiya low tack tape from the model shop used by the plastic boys, still gives the best edge of any I have used.

Agree with you cellulose is the best especially for camouflage simply because of the drying time, always use purple or grey 3m Scotbrite to key and etch prime first, also use the scotchbrite and water with a little washing up liquid to level after spraying. Lacquer? 2K with or without matting additive or AeroKote/Tufcote mixing matt and gloss to get the finish. Otherwise I tend to use 2 pack but you have to have the kit, ie air fed mask (I got mine with filter etc for £70 on ebay, good make),paper overalls (£2.50) do yourself a real favour and get an HVLP gun, just started using one and far better than my old high pressure jobbie, no fog........

Final one, anyone out there using KlassKote am just trying out and the 6:1 ratio is way too thick, what are you thinning primer and gloss down to? I've reached 30% and it still looks a bit too heavy especially given the high solids in the primer.

Mike

jason

My Feedback: (1)

Hey John, please don't exclude me.. I think the model looks great painted with emulsion. It's just missing a dado rail or a nice paper border with Noddy on it now.. Oh sorry I'm off on one again. I take it all back, it looks great. Well done.

Jason.

P.s I would like to apologise for Professor Rutters conduct on this thread. The poor lad has obviously been sniffing too much solvent from the space age ink that his megatron printing machine uses. He needs help, lots of it..

john agnew

Gordon

The compressor is a Performance Power unit £49.99 and the spraygun is a Rockworth £35. If like me, you are over 60, buy on Wednesday and get 10% off The 3M doorshut tape is from my local car paint supplier B&Q does not stock it. There is virtually no step at the colour merge, as you say the masking tape feathers the edge almost to nothing.

BTW Halfords also have some very good prices on sprayguns.

I do not have any sharp edges masked but judging by the very small amount of paint needed to cover I don't think the edge will be very thick.

John

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

I used KK on my Skyhawk, lovely paint, I used 1:1:1 paint:hardener:thinner except for the fats white primer which was probably about 2:2:1

Harry

doctor jason

you have no idea what you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Most people here slating water based paints and refinishes have no idea what they are talking about

Most automotive paints are now water based . be it epoxy. polyacetate. dezcremate, they are all water based , most of my aircraft, jets , heli;s are finished in these systems and yes i have used homebase emulsion[ as a base coat] with water based clearcoat. not quite as good as Sikkens clear. but not far behind.especiailly if sprayed with hvlp sprayguns.

holds up very well with 30% nitro and jet A1

also worth noting that water is a solvent, be it not very volatile, it is now the prefered system for refinishing with better spray gun finish then highly volatile solvents that give solvent rash caused by rapid evaporation of the solvent.the main disadvantage of water bases is you need to carefully control the enviroment around the paint with regards to humidty .