ORIGINAL: MHester

Maybe just a few questions are in order. What the heck I'm waiting on glue to dry.

1. Did Jim mention he was practicing for a national competition? Key word is practicing. Whether or not anyone present cared is irrelavent, but might actually make the whole point right there if the answer is "nobody cared". THAT is a complete lack of common respect if that's the case. If not the case, then it doesn't matter.

2. Was there in fact some sort of rotation in place, formal or informal?

3. Did Jim take off on top of Glen at any point?

4. Could/would Glen have avoided the prop plane if he wanted to?

5. Could/would Jim have avoided the jet if he wanted to?

6. Was there any point where both pilots saw the other plane and had time to adjust thier flight path, or did it happen too fast?

7. IF Jim mentioned he was practicing for a National event, and Glen knew this (both of these conditions apply) then why did Glen not wait?

8. How many people were at the field at the time of the accident?

Please keep the smarty pants comments to yourself, and I will gladly return the favor. I am in no way attacking or condemning anyone or any form of flying, merely asking questions in an attempt to gather information for my OWN knowledge.

And as far as I know, none of Jim's "buddies" told him to post anything here. If he had mentioned it, I know for certain I would have told him to think better of it.

-M

ORIGINAL: MHester

I'm glad I don't fly jets. And people call pattern guys snobs?????? ROFLMAO!!!!!!!


-M

ORIGINAL: Kevin Greene

Hmmm--Jim was in the air by himself--In my opinion a spotter isn't necessary if you fly alone....I would NOT have taken off had the only other guy flying not had a spotter---I would have asked for someone to spot for him or I would not have taken off...On the other hand....

Seems to me that there was a lack of respect---If I had known that a contest caliber jet was practicing for a national event, there's no way in hell I would have upset his routine and taken off---KNOWING HE DIDN"T HAVE A SPOTTER!!!---I would have sat my over anxious butt down for another few minutes, then taken off after he had landed...

It's about repect and common sense--But that's just the kind of guy I am....

Kevin

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc

Sounds like your math doesn't add up. If there are 20 pilots present as you suggest, and each one wants to fly alone, that's about 3 hours that each person needs to wait between flights - not 5 or 10 minutes.

Gordon

I'm glad I don't fly jets. And people call pattern guys snobs?????? ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

ORIGINAL: Jetflyer 24


Hi, I think I can answer your questions.



1. Did Jim mention he was practicing for a national competition? Key word is practicing. Whether or not anyone present cared is irrelavent, but might actually make the whole point right there if the answer is "nobody cared". THAT is a complete lack of common respect if that's the case. If not the case, then it doesn't matter.

Jim mentioned that he was practicing for the Nats, Yes. FYI Glen was practicing for the half time demo he was doing for the huge AMA jamboree event the SouthEast region is doing. As far as not caring, I think you're assuming that, everyone cares of course no matter what the price tag is

I assumed nothing. I asked.


2. Was there in fact some sort of rotation in place, formal or informal?

Markahm park is a public park hence the reason so many things take place there ( FREE ), there are 5 bulletproof flight stations therefore if one is clear whoever is ready to roll out I guarantee you they will, please keep in mind that it's a public park and not everyone knows every single person that pushes a plane out there, I for one never met Jim before until that afternoon ( super nice guy by the way)

Yes he is. Obviously upset, but that might be expected. it depends on the person and the situation I suppose.


3. Did Jim take off on top of Glen at any point?

No, Jim was in the air at the time and Glen took off to practice as well. To be honest I would've taken off also since it was just him in the air.

Ok.


4. Could/would Glen have avoided the prop plane if he wanted to?

No way, he was slow and dirty with a 4 second spool up delay

I thought not, even dirty and landing Bandits have a pretty high rate of speed. If you take your eyes off of it, you might lose the plane.


5. Could/would Jim have avoided the jet if he wanted to?

If Jim knew Glen's position I think he could've avoided the collision but as he stated, he was zoned out and locked on his plane so it's very hard to watch someone else's plane when you're zoned out specially without a spotter.

Maybe. But was he any more zoned and locked on his plane than Glen?

6. Was there any point where both pilots saw the other plane and had time to adjust thier flight path, or did it happen too fast?

it's a matter of blinking and it's all over

Excellent point. Remember this one.

7. IF Jim mentioned he was practicing for a National event, and Glen knew this (both of these conditions apply) then why did Glen not wait?

I honestly don't see why he needed to stay grounded specially when it was just Jim in the air. I guarantee you that if Jim approached Glen and asked if he could wait till he was done, I'm sure Glen would've given him the courtesy to fly alone.

Looks like we have hit the source of the problem. More in a minute....

8. How many people were at the field at the time of the accident?

8 maybe 9

That's what I was lead to believe.

ORIGINAL: Rebellion
Mike, you need to keep in mind that the jet guys we fly with at Ga Jets are nothing like what you're seeing here. Definitely a good thing.

ORIGINAL: CraigG


Mike didn't fully explain how we manage the jet/non-jet flying at the Georgia Jets field. Basically we don't mix jets with non-jets and pretty much take turns between the two on the occasions when both are present. There are not long wait times since multiple planes of each type time simultaneously. The following is how our rules, in part, read;

"Pilots will coordinate amongst themselves such that aircraft of significantly differing airspeeds are not flown simultaneously....... Non-jet aircraft will fly only when there are no model jets airborne. This rule is intended to increase safety and is not meant to restrict nonturbine aircraft from flying at the Club flying site. Pilots will coordinate amongst themselves in a courteous manner to ensure that all pilots and aircraft are allowed ample opportunity to fly."

Perhaps the key word in these rules is "courteous". The jet/non-jet guys (including Mike) get along just fine at Georgia Jets. Granted, we limit our membership and have the luxury of controlling all aspects of our flying site but it works well for us. Seems like Markham Park could use some similar guidelines.

Craig

ORIGINAL: MHester

See my responses above. I really do think this begins to outline the problem, which I stated very early in this thread. I am NOT pointing fingers or making judgements (well ok except to the more socially challenged participants of this discussion) all I am trying to do is figure out how to avoid these kinds of things. But in order to do that, we have to know why it happens in the first place.

Let me say that no competitor I know feels any sense of entitlement to anything. We KNOW the sky is shared by us all, and we also know the risks when we take off. What happens after that can sometimes be out of our control.

So I ask again, why did he take off? Is it because he saw no risk, (in which case the outcome spells out that mistake), or because he really didn't know what Jim was looking for? Have you ever tried to practice when you have ONE plane in a high risk environment? If you say nothing, you're at risk. If you don't fly at all, you will not be adequately prepared for national competition. if you DO say something about needing airtime alone so as not to put your plane at unnecessary risk, you're "entitled" to something. You can't win.

Not unless everyone involved shows a great deal of respect for the other pilots, and they communicate CLEARLY. Looks like both of those areas were somewhat lacking, now wouldn't you agree?

Any time you fly a plane you take a chance. Whether it costs $50 or $50,000 it doesn't matter. But ALL of this can be (and could have been) avoided with some better communication and forethought.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Still I'm not passing judgements on either of the parties, just identifying problems.

-Mike

ORIGINAL: Jetflyer 24


Care to explain your comment ?


Thanks in advance.

ORIGINAL: MHester

I would think it didn't need to be explained. It's pretty obvious. And yes the guys I fly with are some of the coolest guys on earth.

-Mike

ORIGINAL: Jetflyer 24


Mike I read you nice and clear, Glen took off because he used his judgement and felt it was safe. I for one have had to practice at Markham Park for Top Gun and unfortunately I do not have the luxury to do it at a private field most of the time so I have to roll my dice, either practice or just take a shot at the competition without practice.

Craig, Markham Park cannot post those rules because it's a public park and everyone has to use their own courtesy judgement. Markham park on a good day has 60- 80 pilots sometimes over 100 people so when we Jet guys see a window to fly when there's no trainers in the air we go for it. From the 15 minutes I spent talking with Jim he seemed like a guy with tons of knowledge and I would go up and feel safe with him alone in the air.

ORIGINAL: Jetflyer 24



Mike, you don't need to tell me that buddy, I've been or better yet FLORIDA has been around the GA jets guys for many many years. Ask Pascoe who Daddy is

ORIGINAL: Jetflyer 24

And this is why RCU or the Net is here for us, so we can all learn and share from others or our mistakes.


I'm done.......

ORIGINAL: AFTERBURNER1

Three pages now????? Paleeeeeeeeeeeeezeeeeeee....

ORIGINAL: bevar

Well,

Here's how I look at it. Practicing a week or two before the NATS at Markham Park is foolish, besides if you obey the boundaries, you really can't fly the sequences properly anyway. It kind of reminds me of the time I torque rolled my $10,000 40% Extra into the dirt one week before the Regionals. Everyone kept telling me "Man, I would not be doing that if I were you", but I did it...one time too many...and BOOM! Scratch one plane.

Markham is a great field, and we all fly some real expensive hardware there, but so do some other guys with $50 aircraft so you have to be careful. You pay your price, you take your chance...but flying an IMAC sequence without a spotter...especially at Markham...that's unbelievable.

Beave