My God someone has cloned a BVM jet! Please give me the DNA formula, maybe I can grow one in my garage! That is the funniest thing Bob Violet has ever written! Go to his web site and read, I could not believe it! Why would someone go to all that work? I agree with Bob Violet, they are absoulutely crazy. I hate to see the poor guy that shows up at a jet meet with a cloned BVM jet, it might just die.

I'm a little uncomfortable with them referring to it as a "clone." That kinda implies that it's an exact replica. In fact, it's a "fake." Somehow, I doubt that whoever is doing the splashing is selling something with as good a build as a real BV kit.

I don't have too huge a problem with the duplication in and of itself, but when somebody goes and SELLS it, especially when passing it off as genuine, that's LAME. I hope somebody gets caught and prosecuted for it....

Did they name it Dolly?

The person who bought the plane was "SOLD" a BVM Bobcat. Much to his surprise, when it showed up, it was not a BVM product.

That is not a problem, That is a huge problem.

Yes, it's a little sad what some people will try and do for money.

I phoned them today looking for info on two planes - the Sundowner (now I know what it's called!) and a scan/ copy of the 3-view that comes with the plans for the colour schemes. All they have left of the Sundowner are a few pics - I'm chasing other leads.

I was actually afraid to mention the Bobcat after reading the web page. I'd like to build a balsa look alike - probably propped with a .40 or .60. , or maybe a smaller one (EDF) to kick around with.

The real thing is a pipe-dream at best for me.(sniff!) You guys are lucky to have such nice toys.

It's one thing to build something that looks like someone else's,
but selling it as someone else's is a no-no... I don't blame him for being pissed - somebody is taking his money...

Here are the only pics I could find of the Sundowner.

And another...

Anybody have anything on this?

That is not the Sundowner. I lusted after the Sundowner ever since I got to see at the '74 (I think) Aerolympics at Lakehurst, NJ.

Okay then, I need lots more help... I was talking to Dave Schulman at BVM and that's what he said it was.

Please point me the right way...

David has been drinking those Long Island Iced Teas again! I do not know what that thing in the photos is, but it ain't the Sundowner. The Sundowner also used the Scozzi fan, but was kind of a cross between a .60 sized pattern ship and an F-4 Phantom. It had fake, non-functional Phantom intake like bumps up front for looks with a conventional tail with Phantom like anhedral. It did not have a twin boom tail as that thing in the photo has. There was an article about the Sundowner in (I believe) American Aircraft Modeler magazine a few months before I saw it fly at Lakehurst. So that makes it 1973 or 1974. I still have the issue somewhere deep deep in boxes in the attic, but I could never find it.

As of late last night I now know what I did not...

No, you're right - it isn't the Sundowner....

It is a Pushy-cat - specifically either the first model or the second one(hence the JM-II in the adds - JM for Jim Miller , not Mutchler as I had thought....) the Pushy-cat we now see is the third revision, owned by Bruce Bohannon.

Bob Violett took the designs and combined the tail from model 3 and model 1 or 2 and added a fin - and a Scozzi fan.

I feel both relieved and such an idiot for not seeing this until now... I've been looking for this since I saw it in magazines

-when I was 10...

Thanks to a couple of people here, and a guy with a great magazine collection, I'm enlightened....

Still tryin to get rhe 3-view for the Bobcat, though...

Voiala'

Voila' again.(spelt it right this time...)

Right outta the box

Wow... After reading Bob's comment on his page, one question comes to mind...

He say's, "Since the future success of turbojet modeling depends on responsible and honest behavior of the participants, the promoters and sponsors of the major jet fly-in events are concerned about these actions.
Therefore, cloned models and their producers will not be allowed to attend or participate in many of the 2003 and beyond events."

How are people to know that the BobCat that shows-up isn't a clone? I'm sure the person who own's it will know it's not OEM, but what about the Promoters and Sponsors? Is there going to be a Bobcat inspection area? Are you not going to be allowed to fly unless you produce a COA or Box-end label, etc?

I feel for Bob!

Craig

"Therefore, cloned models and their producers will not be allowed to attend or participate in many of the 2003 and beyond events."

I understand the concern of fraudulent representation of a manufacturers name, but is Bob's comment legal? That really shows a very strong arm and his influences within the model jet industries. I'm a big fan of Bob's products and craftsmanship, but unfortunately spin offs, not true clones, have existed for every non patentable or copyrighted product.

JUST WHO IS SELLING THESE "CLONES"?

Not one mention of the alleged seller.
Who? Where? How much?

Any details on how to spot these copies, how about a picture or two?

What about the guy that cant afford to/doesnt want to buy an expensive kit (of any brand) and decides to scratch build a similar design for himself (with no intention of selling them, just for his/her own use). How can you "legally" stop a model builder/flyer from flying his own built model, just becuase it looks like another one?

AJC

AJC,

I don't think that is the point BV is trying to make. Obviously some one took one of his kits, used the glass parts as plugs to make molds, traced the wood parts, and hacked out a kit built it and sold it as a BVM Bobcat. Very unethical.

DR

I totally agree. Copying a kit (and at a lower quality to boot) is not right, even if you plan to sell it under your own name. Trying to pass it off as the genuaine article is lower than low!

I just thought a blanket "if it looks like X but really isnt" ban isnt a good idea since many guys like to scracth build for themselves. How would an event organiser ban some but not all look alikes? Its a messy situation...

AJC

So if event organizers are going to deny entry into an AMA insured event I wonder how the AMA would view this?

Seems if an organizer wants to run basically a invitational only event then they should also provide their own insurance riders. hmmmm?????

Seems like we have enough laws in this country to protect BVM interests without burdening event organizors.....

c/f you should read the AMA contest regulations sometime. The CD has the right to deny ANYONE to fly at an AMA event at any time.

Shame on someone to take a recent design from one of the best guys out their when the ink on Bob's CAD drawing hasn't even dried yet (just an expression of sorts) and splash a mold from it. I could see a guy on a tight budget taking the remains of a wing panel and trying to cut ribs and fix it or something( remember the old "Ugly Stick days") but to dup the whole kit is just stupid.

I have a sport jet design I have been working on now for a couple of years. I hired someone to do the plugs and molds. I gave him the cash up front, and my ORIGINAL full size drawings...he since then, has fallen off the face of the earth. I was smart enough to register the drawings, their original dates, back when I first stated as my own. Let this guy show up somewhere with my jet, I will own him, as Bob will this fellow.

Jack Holland-still alive
AMT rep
BVM dealer for over 15 years and proud of it!

AJC,

If you cant afford a BobCat. Then go to Top Gun Aircraft and buy their TopCat. Aslo skipping the retracts at $400-$900 and go with fixed gear.

I dont approve of the Clone, but would like to know who is doing this, so I can avoid him (or her). But this must be classified information at this time.

Bob Eckel

I have read with interest the comments in this thread and would like to add a few observations.

It is obvious that most think Bob's "cloning" article was about copyright protection, money, or perhaps hurt pride.

WRONG.

It's about LIABILITY! It's about the rush to judgment which will occur when a Bobcat "clone" comes apart at 200 mph and kills someone. At that point the worms will not go back in the can, no matter who eventually gets blamed. We all know that the Bobcat is a solid airplane but the retraction never seems to cancel the negative effect of the original headlines. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Bob got sued because it was his kit that was copied. If a thief can sue his victim for injuries sustained during the robbery and win, I wouldn't put anything past the lawyers.

It's also about what such an incident will do to our hobby as well. It will be of little consequence who was really at fault when we have no place left to fly.

If I were Bob, I'd be a little paranoid about some of the "amateur hour" bullsh_t that goes on in our turbine powered hobby as well.

Mitch

Mitch is exactly right.

I attend jet rallies yearly and there is a huge concern in my mind if somebody is selling another product that is labeled as a BVM product. The time and dedication that BVM has invested into this hobby protects our interests in turbine models. Any comment made by BVM is on behalf of our hobby that has progressed from ducted fan to turbine models which involves a great deal of responsibility. I feel safe at the jet rallies when I see Bobcats showing their stuff in the air because they are proven airframes.

I encourage everybody to go and read the cloning comments again on BV's website and see the true meaning of the remarks
from a spectator at a jet rally point of view. Your views will change if you attend jet rallies and can vision a plane fully loaded with jet-A doing upwards of 200 mph with hundreds of spectators and the model was produced in a garage with no quality control. I personally hope that these "sold as Bobcat" products are identified and not allowed at any AMA sanctioned event. If they have to be inspected, so be it. Look what happened at a couple of night clubs when shortcuts were taken.

I have never owned a BVM airframe, as of yet, but my interest in turbines has began and I feel that BVM is protecting my interests.
These guys are indeed true professionals and are only looking out for our best interests and that is all.