The Sled
07-31-2009 | 11:38 AM
#30
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From: Canyon Lake, TX
RE: The Sled
The gear is a amazing! This build is a pleasure to follow.
http://www.mmrca.org/lance/sledframe.html
http://www.mmrca.org/lance/sledframe.html
08-08-2009 | 10:41 PM
#31
RE: The Sled
I'd LOVE to be able to make stuff like that - but you need the right machinery.
That tiny milling machine in the pics is as cute as a button. Anyone got any idea what it is, where you get them from, and what they cost?
BJ
That tiny milling machine in the pics is as cute as a button. Anyone got any idea what it is, where you get them from, and what they cost?
BJ
08-10-2009 | 09:10 AM
#32
RE: The Sled
The mill is this one:
[link]http://www.grizzley.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619[/link]
And the lathe is this one:
[link]http://www.grizzley.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602[/link]
My goal was to try to find one for 1k each, and came pretty close to that. They have went up by about $100 each since I got mine.
I did a ton of research, and settled on these. I'm pleased with the quality and can get down to about a half of a thousand'th tolerances. The lathe I wanted to have 1 inch through the headstock capability. The computer readout of RPM and digital depth gauge on the mill are very nice too. I know CNC is the big buzword, but doing things manually has turned out to be not tough at all. It's not like I'm making a ton of any one part. Considering I'm making 1 or 2 of about anything, I probably get it done just as fast, by skipping the PC part. I can retrofit the mill with CNC later, and may do that, but figured learning things manually would be wise, and I'm glad I've went that path.
The lathe was what I first started thinking about, but now, realize probably 60%+ of the time is spent at the mill, and am glad I went a bit bigger on the mill, that I had originally planned.
Plan on spending about another 1k on 'extra stuff', from vises, to rotary table, to end mills, lathe bits, measuring tools, etc.
I was heasitant to take this leap, but now after the fact, I'm very glad I did. It's such a great option, if I need a bit of something, to just walk over and make it, down to a thousand'th of an inch, and keep rolling.
Lance
[link]http://www.grizzley.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619[/link]
And the lathe is this one:
[link]http://www.grizzley.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602[/link]
My goal was to try to find one for 1k each, and came pretty close to that. They have went up by about $100 each since I got mine.
I did a ton of research, and settled on these. I'm pleased with the quality and can get down to about a half of a thousand'th tolerances. The lathe I wanted to have 1 inch through the headstock capability. The computer readout of RPM and digital depth gauge on the mill are very nice too. I know CNC is the big buzword, but doing things manually has turned out to be not tough at all. It's not like I'm making a ton of any one part. Considering I'm making 1 or 2 of about anything, I probably get it done just as fast, by skipping the PC part. I can retrofit the mill with CNC later, and may do that, but figured learning things manually would be wise, and I'm glad I've went that path.
The lathe was what I first started thinking about, but now, realize probably 60%+ of the time is spent at the mill, and am glad I went a bit bigger on the mill, that I had originally planned.
Plan on spending about another 1k on 'extra stuff', from vises, to rotary table, to end mills, lathe bits, measuring tools, etc.
I was heasitant to take this leap, but now after the fact, I'm very glad I did. It's such a great option, if I need a bit of something, to just walk over and make it, down to a thousand'th of an inch, and keep rolling.
Lance
08-10-2009 | 12:28 PM
#33
My Feedback: (10)
RE: The Sled
Lance you are a h*ll of a modeler.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I am close to pulling the trigger on similar equipment.
1.) Did you get a rotary table for the mill? Does the mill head tilt?
2.) I assume you got DRO on all axis? Did you purchase those separately or can you order the machines set with DRO in advance?
3.) How do you have them mounted? Did you get the individual stands or are they on a table?
4.) How are they delivered? I assume a truck comes to your house but will they set them where you want them?
My brother owns a machine shop and I remember back in the days when I worked there in the summers, when he had to move a machine it was a_big_deal and there were companies that did nothing but move and set these things up. I am just not sure how those issues map to the small machines (400 pounds still sounds like a lot!)
Thanks in advance,
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I am close to pulling the trigger on similar equipment.
1.) Did you get a rotary table for the mill? Does the mill head tilt?
2.) I assume you got DRO on all axis? Did you purchase those separately or can you order the machines set with DRO in advance?
3.) How do you have them mounted? Did you get the individual stands or are they on a table?
4.) How are they delivered? I assume a truck comes to your house but will they set them where you want them?
My brother owns a machine shop and I remember back in the days when I worked there in the summers, when he had to move a machine it was a_big_deal and there were companies that did nothing but move and set these things up. I am just not sure how those issues map to the small machines (400 pounds still sounds like a lot!)
Thanks in advance,
08-10-2009 | 02:33 PM
#34
RE: The Sled
Matt,
Thanks.
1. On my model, yes, the head tilts, like 90 degrees one way, and a smaller amount the other, maybe 30 degrees. I've found that I very rarely do this, as it takes a bit of effort to true it back to vertical afterwards, but have used it a couple times. The rotary table is a smaller item that clamps down on the base. The booger of using it, is to get the part clamped down to it, so that it's true to the rotation and centered under the bit, and not get the clamps tangled up in the way of the mill head. When you tighten the clamp down, it can move it just a tiny bit. I've learned that if I am doing a cut, of some size, such as a 1/2 inch radius, it's pretty easy to setup. However, trying to do the 1/8 inch radius roundover's on my scissor links were a nightmare, and I actually ended up using a router bit instead, and moved the piece under it, and that worked like a champ. Moral of the story, yes you'll probably need a rotary table, but won't use it as much as you'd first think.
2. Nope, no digital read out's on anything except the vertical of the head. I learned that it's not that big of a deal, as there is always slop in the threads on the jack screws, and once you start making cuts, you're only ever turning the wheels one way (to make the next deeper cut), so, once you're going in that way, the 1/1000 graduations on the wheels have turned out to be very accurate, and just fine for daily use. So... make an initial cut, measure it, and say hmmm, seems to be 68 thousands too big, so, I'll make 3 cuts of 20 thousands at a time, but turning in the wheel 20 at a time, then remeasure now that I'm getting real close, and lets say it's not got 8 more to go, but really 6. I turn the wheel 6 more and make the finish cut. (actually, I've learned that if you take a couple thousands off, the 'wrong way', or 'climb milling' you get a much better finish, so in this case, I'd take 4 thousands off normally, then the last 2 thousands off on the back cut, or with the bit climb milling at a higher speed.)
There are forums out there just like RCU that guys retrofit all kinds of stuff on mills and lathes, and I figured I can add stuff at a later time, but have been really surprised that it's not that big of a deal. The accuracy of the dials on the wheels really, really surprised me.
3. The lathe came with a stand, which was a huge help. No dice on the mill, and that caused me quite a bit of head scratching. I ended up getting a standard cabinet, but reinforced it all around the sides, back and an internal section, with 1 inch by 12 inch wood, 'endgrain', running vertical. I used some epoxy from the project, and lots of wood screws, and massively beefed up the weak particle board of a cabinet. I then got a section of surplus counter top, and cut it to size. All total, I probably got about $100 in the mill stand, but way too much work, but I could not find anything that would work off the shelf for it. At least this way, I've got 3 drawers under it to hold all the machine tools.
4. You've grazed across a couple of the logistical questions that I was really stumped by as well, in getting the machines actually setup in the shop. There is no simple way to do this. These things are like 300-400 pounds. And their size is such that you can't get a bunch of guys around them and just manhandle them. Grizzly offered for an extra $25 delivery on a truck that had a lift gate. I knew enough about trucking to know, that for them to actually get it off the lift gate, they would have to have a pallet jack. But they legally, don't have to move it off the curb. I called my local terminal, and asked if it would be a problem to pallet jack it up my driveway, about 40 feet and drop them in my garage. Local terminal said no problem, but be sure to confirm that before ordering. So, now they are in the garage and not in the walk out basement shop..... To get them there, I used a combo of my riding mower, and it's small 4 foot square little wagon, and a rented engine lift. So here's the routine...use engine lift, with lots of strap and webbing, get lathe into cart, drive cart and tractor around yard, into the basement (the wife is getting used to me, because when I said, I was planning on driving the mower in the basement she didn't even raise an eyebrow). Once in the basement, disassemble, the 6 parts of the engine lift, take them to the basement by hand, reassemble the lift, lift the lathe out of the tractor, hover it into place, and place it on it's stand. Rinse and repeat all this for moving the mill. This was an entire day thing, just to get these 2 machines settled into the basement. Also, you want them as level as possible.
For just a few parts at a time, doing them manually is a piece of cake. I may spend 15 minutes getting a part in the vice, measured, and square, and then it take's like 2 minutes to make the cut. Even if it was a CNC machine, the part still has to be put in the vice, and trued up so it has a zero zero zero reference point to it. For the most part the CNC helps on the cut part, not so much the setup part, which for me is most of the time anyhow.
Lastly take all of the above with a huge grain of salt. I am just figuring this out all for the first time. I read like 2 books and have subscribed to a couple machinist magazines for about 2 years now. I searched all over for an adult education class around here and after finding nothing, said "Fine, I'll just figure this out on my own." I've gotten some great advice from a few people as well, on machine choices and tools to consider. What I find fun, is figuring out the order that a part is cut out in, as the order of the cuts matter. For example, each one of my scissor links has 26 machining 'operations' on them. That's 26 separate times, the part is placed in a vice, measured, and a cut made.... per link. It's an interesting puzzle to figure out the order to make those operations in, so that an early one, does not make a later one more difficult.
Fun stuff,
Lance
Thanks.
1. On my model, yes, the head tilts, like 90 degrees one way, and a smaller amount the other, maybe 30 degrees. I've found that I very rarely do this, as it takes a bit of effort to true it back to vertical afterwards, but have used it a couple times. The rotary table is a smaller item that clamps down on the base. The booger of using it, is to get the part clamped down to it, so that it's true to the rotation and centered under the bit, and not get the clamps tangled up in the way of the mill head. When you tighten the clamp down, it can move it just a tiny bit. I've learned that if I am doing a cut, of some size, such as a 1/2 inch radius, it's pretty easy to setup. However, trying to do the 1/8 inch radius roundover's on my scissor links were a nightmare, and I actually ended up using a router bit instead, and moved the piece under it, and that worked like a champ. Moral of the story, yes you'll probably need a rotary table, but won't use it as much as you'd first think.
2. Nope, no digital read out's on anything except the vertical of the head. I learned that it's not that big of a deal, as there is always slop in the threads on the jack screws, and once you start making cuts, you're only ever turning the wheels one way (to make the next deeper cut), so, once you're going in that way, the 1/1000 graduations on the wheels have turned out to be very accurate, and just fine for daily use. So... make an initial cut, measure it, and say hmmm, seems to be 68 thousands too big, so, I'll make 3 cuts of 20 thousands at a time, but turning in the wheel 20 at a time, then remeasure now that I'm getting real close, and lets say it's not got 8 more to go, but really 6. I turn the wheel 6 more and make the finish cut. (actually, I've learned that if you take a couple thousands off, the 'wrong way', or 'climb milling' you get a much better finish, so in this case, I'd take 4 thousands off normally, then the last 2 thousands off on the back cut, or with the bit climb milling at a higher speed.)
There are forums out there just like RCU that guys retrofit all kinds of stuff on mills and lathes, and I figured I can add stuff at a later time, but have been really surprised that it's not that big of a deal. The accuracy of the dials on the wheels really, really surprised me.
3. The lathe came with a stand, which was a huge help. No dice on the mill, and that caused me quite a bit of head scratching. I ended up getting a standard cabinet, but reinforced it all around the sides, back and an internal section, with 1 inch by 12 inch wood, 'endgrain', running vertical. I used some epoxy from the project, and lots of wood screws, and massively beefed up the weak particle board of a cabinet. I then got a section of surplus counter top, and cut it to size. All total, I probably got about $100 in the mill stand, but way too much work, but I could not find anything that would work off the shelf for it. At least this way, I've got 3 drawers under it to hold all the machine tools.
4. You've grazed across a couple of the logistical questions that I was really stumped by as well, in getting the machines actually setup in the shop. There is no simple way to do this. These things are like 300-400 pounds. And their size is such that you can't get a bunch of guys around them and just manhandle them. Grizzly offered for an extra $25 delivery on a truck that had a lift gate. I knew enough about trucking to know, that for them to actually get it off the lift gate, they would have to have a pallet jack. But they legally, don't have to move it off the curb. I called my local terminal, and asked if it would be a problem to pallet jack it up my driveway, about 40 feet and drop them in my garage. Local terminal said no problem, but be sure to confirm that before ordering. So, now they are in the garage and not in the walk out basement shop..... To get them there, I used a combo of my riding mower, and it's small 4 foot square little wagon, and a rented engine lift. So here's the routine...use engine lift, with lots of strap and webbing, get lathe into cart, drive cart and tractor around yard, into the basement (the wife is getting used to me, because when I said, I was planning on driving the mower in the basement she didn't even raise an eyebrow). Once in the basement, disassemble, the 6 parts of the engine lift, take them to the basement by hand, reassemble the lift, lift the lathe out of the tractor, hover it into place, and place it on it's stand. Rinse and repeat all this for moving the mill. This was an entire day thing, just to get these 2 machines settled into the basement. Also, you want them as level as possible.
For just a few parts at a time, doing them manually is a piece of cake. I may spend 15 minutes getting a part in the vice, measured, and square, and then it take's like 2 minutes to make the cut. Even if it was a CNC machine, the part still has to be put in the vice, and trued up so it has a zero zero zero reference point to it. For the most part the CNC helps on the cut part, not so much the setup part, which for me is most of the time anyhow.
Lastly take all of the above with a huge grain of salt. I am just figuring this out all for the first time. I read like 2 books and have subscribed to a couple machinist magazines for about 2 years now. I searched all over for an adult education class around here and after finding nothing, said "Fine, I'll just figure this out on my own." I've gotten some great advice from a few people as well, on machine choices and tools to consider. What I find fun, is figuring out the order that a part is cut out in, as the order of the cuts matter. For example, each one of my scissor links has 26 machining 'operations' on them. That's 26 separate times, the part is placed in a vice, measured, and a cut made.... per link. It's an interesting puzzle to figure out the order to make those operations in, so that an early one, does not make a later one more difficult.
Fun stuff,
Lance
08-10-2009 | 03:15 PM
#35
RE: The Sled
Oh, one thing I forgot to include in the above post, in reguards to point 2 above. A good digital caliper, is my right hand in all this. I'm using this thing all the time, so get yourself a good one. To be able to zero it out, anywhere on it for example or for inside measurments or depth with the little wire that sticks out the end. I find that at times, I'm using it as a quick calculator even, adding or subtracting amounts, by this function.
Say you're making a part to .750 inch. Slide the rule to exactly that amount, then zero it there. Now when you measure your part, and it reads for example, the above talked about .068, that tells me at a glance my part is .068 over my target of .750, so I can know how much to turn the dials, to take that amount off.
That's much faster, than just leaving the rule zero'd when closed, and you then measure the part and it's .818, and I'm having to do the math in my head about what I have to take off, to get down to .750 inch.
Any way to minimize strain on the brain cells is a good thing.
Lance
Say you're making a part to .750 inch. Slide the rule to exactly that amount, then zero it there. Now when you measure your part, and it reads for example, the above talked about .068, that tells me at a glance my part is .068 over my target of .750, so I can know how much to turn the dials, to take that amount off.
That's much faster, than just leaving the rule zero'd when closed, and you then measure the part and it's .818, and I'm having to do the math in my head about what I have to take off, to get down to .750 inch.
Any way to minimize strain on the brain cells is a good thing.
Lance
08-10-2009 | 03:46 PM
#36
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From: West Linda,
CA
RE: The Sled
I'll put in my part here: Lance is a natural with this, it's not as easy as it looks, but you can do it. You can go to local community college also (a good start) and buy some books. Here are some tips;
My advice to Lance was to stay away from a "3 in 1" machine. Spend a couple of extra bucks and get a separate lathe and Mill. You will learn that the savings in setup times and ease is worth the money.
Unless you get a very small (i.e., Taig) they are going to come truck freight. Get a lift gate, the driver will have a pallet jack to move it into the garage, etc.
Unless you get a full size machine, you should be able to lift them with a chain hoist over a ceiling rafter with support on the sides, or hand lift them with some help. A full size machine is going to weigh a ton or more. If you do that you are going to have to have a fork lift on site to lift the machine from the truck.
An option for a small bench top Milling machine is a 55 gallon drum with a 1/2" steel plate on the top for a stand, a small lathe isn't as heavy, but if you have the option, buy the stands - save some time / money here. If you can weld, and have a welder (and are proficient with it) you can make a stand.
Digital readouts on the Mill are awesome, but you can set it up with dial indicators and be just as good (read below).
A general rule of thumb is (from experience): If you pay $1000.00 for the machine, expect to pay $1000.00 for additional tooling (cutters, measuring tools, etc.), that is what we do, it has never been wrong, regardless of the cost of the machine. If you are a regular machine shop, this may not apply fully, but you can almost see the tooling add up to the cost of the machine in most cases is you are starting out. You have to be a machinist before you can use a CNC machine, so forget that route unless you are at that level.
If the head tilts on the Milling machine, that is good, but (read below) can cause a new guy some problems. Be realistic on what you can learn, study, and master. You don't necessarily have to have the head tilt.
The read below part:
Machine work is generally not hard, but it isn't "welding" in its simplest form. There are many "setups" required to obtain a finished part, and if the head tilts on the Milling machine, you need to understand how to square it up again (more tools/money). You don't need digital readouts, but either way, you have to know how to use what ever you have - there is a lot more to it than you may think - you can still do it though. You can do a lot with nothing if you know how to use what you have. You will ruin many parts (and tools) learning - be aware. Find an "old time" machinist that may be able to help you out for a couple of beers (or whatever) - he may be a neighbor or family friend. Tell them what you are making, it will make difference.
You aren't going to save any real money doing it yourself, but the satisfaction of doing it is great. Every part you do make is money towards paying the cost of the equipment, and you won't have a lawn mower or car that you won't use those machines to fix once you know how to use them. Machining is its own "hobby", so expect to spend some time.
Back to Lance though: Lance has spent many hours studying and experimenting to get where he is, and I think he is a little over a year in, but he is 3 years down the road due to his persistence and dedication - and he is about a 6 months to a year from paying off his equipment with what he has done. It will take a year to get on your feet though. If I was there, I would stop by and help him out, as it is he knows he can call, but don't forget there are guys that are willing to help you withing a mile of you, find them.
By the way: Lance, scissors to suck, they are the worst it gets
Dennis
My advice to Lance was to stay away from a "3 in 1" machine. Spend a couple of extra bucks and get a separate lathe and Mill. You will learn that the savings in setup times and ease is worth the money.
Unless you get a very small (i.e., Taig) they are going to come truck freight. Get a lift gate, the driver will have a pallet jack to move it into the garage, etc.
Unless you get a full size machine, you should be able to lift them with a chain hoist over a ceiling rafter with support on the sides, or hand lift them with some help. A full size machine is going to weigh a ton or more. If you do that you are going to have to have a fork lift on site to lift the machine from the truck.
An option for a small bench top Milling machine is a 55 gallon drum with a 1/2" steel plate on the top for a stand, a small lathe isn't as heavy, but if you have the option, buy the stands - save some time / money here. If you can weld, and have a welder (and are proficient with it) you can make a stand.
Digital readouts on the Mill are awesome, but you can set it up with dial indicators and be just as good (read below).
A general rule of thumb is (from experience): If you pay $1000.00 for the machine, expect to pay $1000.00 for additional tooling (cutters, measuring tools, etc.), that is what we do, it has never been wrong, regardless of the cost of the machine. If you are a regular machine shop, this may not apply fully, but you can almost see the tooling add up to the cost of the machine in most cases is you are starting out. You have to be a machinist before you can use a CNC machine, so forget that route unless you are at that level.
If the head tilts on the Milling machine, that is good, but (read below) can cause a new guy some problems. Be realistic on what you can learn, study, and master. You don't necessarily have to have the head tilt.
The read below part:
Machine work is generally not hard, but it isn't "welding" in its simplest form. There are many "setups" required to obtain a finished part, and if the head tilts on the Milling machine, you need to understand how to square it up again (more tools/money). You don't need digital readouts, but either way, you have to know how to use what ever you have - there is a lot more to it than you may think - you can still do it though. You can do a lot with nothing if you know how to use what you have. You will ruin many parts (and tools) learning - be aware. Find an "old time" machinist that may be able to help you out for a couple of beers (or whatever) - he may be a neighbor or family friend. Tell them what you are making, it will make difference.
You aren't going to save any real money doing it yourself, but the satisfaction of doing it is great. Every part you do make is money towards paying the cost of the equipment, and you won't have a lawn mower or car that you won't use those machines to fix once you know how to use them. Machining is its own "hobby", so expect to spend some time.
Back to Lance though: Lance has spent many hours studying and experimenting to get where he is, and I think he is a little over a year in, but he is 3 years down the road due to his persistence and dedication - and he is about a 6 months to a year from paying off his equipment with what he has done. It will take a year to get on your feet though. If I was there, I would stop by and help him out, as it is he knows he can call, but don't forget there are guys that are willing to help you withing a mile of you, find them.
By the way: Lance, scissors to suck, they are the worst it gets
Dennis
08-10-2009 | 10:51 PM
#37
RE: The Sled
Thanks for the info Lance.
That 'mill' in the close-up pic of making multiple reinforcing wheel struts looks really small - is that some sort of attachment for the main Mill? Or something special you have made?
Either way, a Mill *and* a Lathe for around a grand a pop is darn good shopping mate. I doub't if I can get anything close to that down here in Australia. Most things I have priced so far run around 2 1/2 thousand each. Overseas stuff can start out a reasonable price, but the shipping is the big killer.
Re the CNC gear, there's some interesting 3, 4 & 5 axis controller boards on eBay, stepper motors, and 'shareware' software to run them. A 3 axis board ($200), 3 stepper motors ($90) and software license ($100) makes 400-odd dollars to set up a CNC mill a pretty reasonable ask in my opinion.
But first, I need a Mill (and a Lathe)....
BJ
That 'mill' in the close-up pic of making multiple reinforcing wheel struts looks really small - is that some sort of attachment for the main Mill? Or something special you have made?
Either way, a Mill *and* a Lathe for around a grand a pop is darn good shopping mate. I doub't if I can get anything close to that down here in Australia. Most things I have priced so far run around 2 1/2 thousand each. Overseas stuff can start out a reasonable price, but the shipping is the big killer.
Re the CNC gear, there's some interesting 3, 4 & 5 axis controller boards on eBay, stepper motors, and 'shareware' software to run them. A 3 axis board ($200), 3 stepper motors ($90) and software license ($100) makes 400-odd dollars to set up a CNC mill a pretty reasonable ask in my opinion.
But first, I need a Mill (and a Lathe)....
BJ
08-11-2009 | 06:56 AM
#38
RE: The Sled
Lance,
I've had a quick look around what's available down here in Oz as far as 'entry level' equipment is concerned, and came across these:
Mill
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...stockCode=M150
Mill 2
http://www.carbatec.com.au/metalwork...illing-machine
Lathe
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...stockCode=L194
Lathe 2
http://www.carbatec.com.au/metalwork...lworking-lathe
If you or anyone else could spare some time to look at the specs and perhaps give me an opinion if this is these are the sort of things that would do the job, or whether I need to 'up market' my search, I'd be appreciative.
BJ
I've had a quick look around what's available down here in Oz as far as 'entry level' equipment is concerned, and came across these:
Mill
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...stockCode=M150
Mill 2
http://www.carbatec.com.au/metalwork...illing-machine
Lathe
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pr...stockCode=L194
Lathe 2
http://www.carbatec.com.au/metalwork...lworking-lathe
If you or anyone else could spare some time to look at the specs and perhaps give me an opinion if this is these are the sort of things that would do the job, or whether I need to 'up market' my search, I'd be appreciative.
BJ
08-11-2009 | 10:49 AM
#40
RE: The Sled
BJ,
You ask a subjective question of 'do the job'. Not knowing what you're thinking about, I'd hesitate to make a comment about the specific machines. I can tell you personal things that I kept in mind however.
For the lathe, I knew I was going to be working with 3/4 inch to 1 inch aluminum round stock for landing gear struts, so for ease of working with longer stock, that meant that I needed at least a 1 inch through the headstock capability. That lets you stick a 3 foot piece out the end of the lathe, and just clamp and work on a few inches at the end. The other element was I knew I was also going to turn down plugs for my engine bypasses, inlet liners, and inlet spikes. I knew the diameter and length of those, and that set the stage of needing a certain size of 'swing over bed', and length between centers, to see what the max part I could turn on it.
The mill I was more in the dark over, but what I got, I dug up reviews on the web and found that it had positive remarks, and also others had retrofitted some CNC components, or digital read outs to it, and figured it was one I could expand with. The one shot on the web site, that I think you're looking at that makes it look much smaller, is when I had the head rotated 90 degrees, and had it very low to the table. In addition to the finely graduated handles for X and Y on the table, my Z axis has a small hand wheel that can adjust the head up and down very precisely as well (half a thousand's or so), and have found that a needed element for me as well. Remember, you loose probably at least 3-4 inches over the bed by the time you clamp down a vice, to hold your parts easily.
Dennis's remarks are very true, and he's been an invaluable help in getting a clue about this, and I've greatly appreciated his assistance and advice. His remarks about features and costs was what I saw exactly when I was picking out my mill. My mill had a motor option that I could get to run the table left and right automatically....$250...then I throw in the $100 I spent on the table, and I'm to a certain amount. For literally $100 more, I could get the next step up in machine that had the motor built in, and came with a built in base. Trouble was, almost a thousand pounds and would require a fork-lift. That was a deal breaker for getting it into the basement.
Also, you get much more machine than what I got, you start looking at greater electrical requirements that a normal house outlet. Be sure to read and understand the electrical requirements of what you're looking at. All the manuals for the machines I was considering were available on the web, via PDF, and I read many of them, to fully understand the different capabilities and limitations of what I was considering.
So, it's a balance of, size of what things you're wanting to make, weight of machines you need to get moved and accommodated, sprinkled with a bit of web reviews on the specific make and model, and topped off with questions of can it be expanded on or improved in the future.
Lance
You ask a subjective question of 'do the job'. Not knowing what you're thinking about, I'd hesitate to make a comment about the specific machines. I can tell you personal things that I kept in mind however.
For the lathe, I knew I was going to be working with 3/4 inch to 1 inch aluminum round stock for landing gear struts, so for ease of working with longer stock, that meant that I needed at least a 1 inch through the headstock capability. That lets you stick a 3 foot piece out the end of the lathe, and just clamp and work on a few inches at the end. The other element was I knew I was also going to turn down plugs for my engine bypasses, inlet liners, and inlet spikes. I knew the diameter and length of those, and that set the stage of needing a certain size of 'swing over bed', and length between centers, to see what the max part I could turn on it.
The mill I was more in the dark over, but what I got, I dug up reviews on the web and found that it had positive remarks, and also others had retrofitted some CNC components, or digital read outs to it, and figured it was one I could expand with. The one shot on the web site, that I think you're looking at that makes it look much smaller, is when I had the head rotated 90 degrees, and had it very low to the table. In addition to the finely graduated handles for X and Y on the table, my Z axis has a small hand wheel that can adjust the head up and down very precisely as well (half a thousand's or so), and have found that a needed element for me as well. Remember, you loose probably at least 3-4 inches over the bed by the time you clamp down a vice, to hold your parts easily.
Dennis's remarks are very true, and he's been an invaluable help in getting a clue about this, and I've greatly appreciated his assistance and advice. His remarks about features and costs was what I saw exactly when I was picking out my mill. My mill had a motor option that I could get to run the table left and right automatically....$250...then I throw in the $100 I spent on the table, and I'm to a certain amount. For literally $100 more, I could get the next step up in machine that had the motor built in, and came with a built in base. Trouble was, almost a thousand pounds and would require a fork-lift. That was a deal breaker for getting it into the basement.
Also, you get much more machine than what I got, you start looking at greater electrical requirements that a normal house outlet. Be sure to read and understand the electrical requirements of what you're looking at. All the manuals for the machines I was considering were available on the web, via PDF, and I read many of them, to fully understand the different capabilities and limitations of what I was considering.
So, it's a balance of, size of what things you're wanting to make, weight of machines you need to get moved and accommodated, sprinkled with a bit of web reviews on the specific make and model, and topped off with questions of can it be expanded on or improved in the future.
Lance
08-11-2009 | 03:02 PM
#41
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From: West Linda,
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RE: The Sled
Also, you get much more machine than what I got, you start looking at greater electrical requirements that a normal house outlet. Be sure to read and understand the electrical requirements of what you're looking at. All the manuals for the machines I was considering were available on the web, via PDF, and I read many of them, to fully understand the different capabilities and limitations of what I was considering.
For the weight issue; you can go to (call) a local equipment rental and get a forklift brought over on a truck ($100.00 to $200.00), and if they are helpful, the guy will drive if for you - but that will end at the garage door on a home due to height. You can "shimmy" it in or use heavy equipment rollers to finish if you are determined to get it in. You don't have to go full tilt on this though is you want to make small parts for yourself vs. going into business. You can get a small machine (s) and be just as good.
X and Y on the table, my Z axis
The power problem comes with larger equipment that will require 220 / 3 phase power (not available in a home ) but you can get a Phase converter to skirt this also.
BJ;
Carba-Tec C0:
Varible speed is good, only a 3 jaw chuck - good for most of what you will do though. Distance between centers (think length) is very short.
L194;
better choice but it is 240volt - depending on the other specs might work from your garage dryer plug.
M150 mill;
best of what the links showed.
These are still much smaller than what Lance bought though. Start here if you don't understand the specs:
[link]http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_lathe/Introduction/introduction.htm[/link]
[link]http://www.sherline.com/millterm.htm[/link]
My search was for "milling machine terminology" and "lathe terminology" on google - there are more links there. Also search milling machine and Lathe on wikipedia.com
Dennis
08-11-2009 | 07:41 PM
#42
RE: The Sled
Dennis points out something that I didn't get the first pass when I was just getting the hang of what to look for in a lathe, and that is a '3 jaw chuck'. I didn't get the difference or the need for 3 vs a 4 jaw untill it dawned on me, that you can't hold something square, or 8 sided, in a 3 jaw chuck. Here's a photo, from my build site, showing (bit fuzy back by the chuck, but you'll get the idea), of turning down a landing gear strut, that was at this stage square on the bottom, hence the need for a 4 jaw chuck.
Lance
Lance
08-11-2009 | 07:49 PM
#43
RE: The Sled
Thanks for your informed advice Lance and Dennis.
In answer to the question of 'what I want to do' with the Lathe and Mill: I'd like to be able to make small parts for landing gear etc. in much the same way Lance is doing. And of course, have a bit a fun leaning something I've wanted to be able to do as a kid.
Going forward, I'd like to be able to put a 6" x 4" x 2" lump of aluminium into the Mill to make up some 4-spot brake callipers for the 'Motor Racing' that's still part of me.
And I hear what you're saying regarding chuck/swing over bed/distance between centres etc. for the Lathe. I think that something that can take a 1" ally rod and have about 12" of workable room should more than cover my needs.
Of course I'd like a 'bigger', 'better' machine, but like you have said - price, weight and size all start going up, not to mention the need for 3-phase power etc.
So, all in all, something around what I posted on the links it where I'm concentrating. I don't really need 'big' machines, but they have to be accurate down to at least a thou or so.
I have access to a larger Lathe should I need to make something more than a foot or so long, but I'll be more or less stuck with the Mill I end up buying.
Lance - if the 'scissors' shot in your pics is using the Mill head rotated 90-deg, then I'll have to make sure I get something that's capable of doing that - I think both the ones I have researched so far only rotate to 45-deg. I like the 90-deg option - it opens up another avenue of how you can use the Mill.
Thanks again for your advice guys.
BJ
In answer to the question of 'what I want to do' with the Lathe and Mill: I'd like to be able to make small parts for landing gear etc. in much the same way Lance is doing. And of course, have a bit a fun leaning something I've wanted to be able to do as a kid.
Going forward, I'd like to be able to put a 6" x 4" x 2" lump of aluminium into the Mill to make up some 4-spot brake callipers for the 'Motor Racing' that's still part of me.
And I hear what you're saying regarding chuck/swing over bed/distance between centres etc. for the Lathe. I think that something that can take a 1" ally rod and have about 12" of workable room should more than cover my needs.
Of course I'd like a 'bigger', 'better' machine, but like you have said - price, weight and size all start going up, not to mention the need for 3-phase power etc.
So, all in all, something around what I posted on the links it where I'm concentrating. I don't really need 'big' machines, but they have to be accurate down to at least a thou or so.
I have access to a larger Lathe should I need to make something more than a foot or so long, but I'll be more or less stuck with the Mill I end up buying.
Lance - if the 'scissors' shot in your pics is using the Mill head rotated 90-deg, then I'll have to make sure I get something that's capable of doing that - I think both the ones I have researched so far only rotate to 45-deg. I like the 90-deg option - it opens up another avenue of how you can use the Mill.
Thanks again for your advice guys.
BJ
08-13-2009 | 03:31 AM
#45
RE: The Sled
Ok... I've done a bit more hunting around, and the Mill I look like the look of so far is: the BF20 at http://www.standaco.com.au/page.asp?...3&productid=22. It's the top left pic of the squishy-looking picture box in the ad.
It's a bit more than I wanted to pay, and probably a fair bit of overkill. But from what I've been finding down here in Oz, there's a big jump from the $700 mark (mostly crap), then into the mid $1000, with very little in between.
I don't mind their Turner 280 Lathe either at http://www.standaco.com.au/page.asp?...3&productid=23, top right of that set of pics. Again, probably overkill, but it will cover other 'larger' jobs too.
I had a look at some Sherline gear, but that stuff must be made of gold or something - about 6-grand for their Mill & Lathe... *eeeesh*
BJ
It's a bit more than I wanted to pay, and probably a fair bit of overkill. But from what I've been finding down here in Oz, there's a big jump from the $700 mark (mostly crap), then into the mid $1000, with very little in between.
I don't mind their Turner 280 Lathe either at http://www.standaco.com.au/page.asp?...3&productid=23, top right of that set of pics. Again, probably overkill, but it will cover other 'larger' jobs too.
I had a look at some Sherline gear, but that stuff must be made of gold or something - about 6-grand for their Mill & Lathe... *eeeesh*
BJ
08-18-2009 | 10:31 PM
#46
RE: The Sled
Well... I went ahead and bought the Standaco Mill and Lathe.
Pick it up on Friday. I can't wait till I get it home and start tinkering with it. Something I've wanted all my life, and now it's finally MINE.. mine mine I say.. all MINE....
BJ
Pick it up on Friday. I can't wait till I get it home and start tinkering with it. Something I've wanted all my life, and now it's finally MINE.. mine mine I say.. all MINE....
BJ
08-19-2009 | 07:02 AM
#47
RE: The Sled
Can anyone recommend some decent Mill and/or Lathe tutorials to get?
Now that I'm skint from buying the equipment LoL any 'freebie' suggestions would be great....
BJ
Now that I'm skint from buying the equipment LoL any 'freebie' suggestions would be great....
BJ
08-19-2009 | 12:50 PM
#48
RE: The Sled
Of all the stuff that I've read in the last 2 years, this book was the one that helped me the most to get up to speed on verbage and basics:
[link]http://www.amazon.com/Home-Machinists-Handbook-Doug-Briney/dp/0830615733/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1250692648&sr=1-2#[/link]
I know it's for Sherline stuff, which is smaller than what I got, but the basics are there which apply to bigger things.
Also, the links Dennis put above look good as well, for getting one's feet wet.
Lance
[link]http://www.amazon.com/Home-Machinists-Handbook-Doug-Briney/dp/0830615733/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1250692648&sr=1-2#[/link]
I know it's for Sherline stuff, which is smaller than what I got, but the basics are there which apply to bigger things.
Also, the links Dennis put above look good as well, for getting one's feet wet.
Lance
08-19-2009 | 02:40 PM
#49
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RE: The Sled
Sorry, I started doing a tutorial on another forum site, but they decided to sell it which caused liability issues so it was dropped.
If you are going to get serious on us:
here's one I found; [link]http://mmu.ic.polyu.edu.hk/Visual_c/mill_1/mill1.htm[/link]
another - see the lathe section also: [link]http://web.mit.edu/2.670/www/Tutorials/Machining/Description.html[/link]
Search the web for 'Lathe tutorial' or 'Metal Lathe tutorial', 'Milling machine tutorial' or specifically 'Vertical milling machine tutorial' - what you have is a vertical millling machine.
Get some books or try going to local community college also. See if you know anyone who might do this that is able to help you get started, or make some friends - you might be a handshake away from some help. Always tell them what you are doing up front - if there is no competition for them, they are more willing to help. It isn't hard, but it isn't easy either - you will have to do some learning and ruin some parts to get your feet wet.
Also, check youtube.com - there are a lot of good videos on there if you can find them.
Dennis
If you are going to get serious on us:
here's one I found; [link]http://mmu.ic.polyu.edu.hk/Visual_c/mill_1/mill1.htm[/link]
another - see the lathe section also: [link]http://web.mit.edu/2.670/www/Tutorials/Machining/Description.html[/link]
Search the web for 'Lathe tutorial' or 'Metal Lathe tutorial', 'Milling machine tutorial' or specifically 'Vertical milling machine tutorial' - what you have is a vertical millling machine.
Get some books or try going to local community college also. See if you know anyone who might do this that is able to help you get started, or make some friends - you might be a handshake away from some help. Always tell them what you are doing up front - if there is no competition for them, they are more willing to help. It isn't hard, but it isn't easy either - you will have to do some learning and ruin some parts to get your feet wet.
Also, check youtube.com - there are a lot of good videos on there if you can find them.
Dennis
08-19-2009 | 08:47 PM
#50
RE: The Sled
Thanks guys.
I realise I'm gonna make a few botch-jobs in order to learn things. So long as all my body-parts stay where they are, it doesn't matter if I nuke a piece of work.
I'm headed off to an Aluminium place on Saturday to buy a couple of bucket-loads of scrap to start turning on the Lathe and play with on the Mill. I'll probably stick with Aluminium for a while, since that's probably what I'll be using mostly for aircraft.
I'll have to look up our local TAFE's (Technical And Further Education) and see what 'shop' classes they're running these days. I did a basic welding course (Oxy/Stick/Mig) with them a few years ago, and I couldn't believe how cheap they were. A hundred or so bucks, and all I had to do was turn up. It was like an 8 week course (2 nights a week?), and they supplied absolutely everything apart from my overalls. Lots of 1-on-1 tuition too, and you could stay after class to practice as well. Brilliant, I thought.
I have given YouTube a good working over, but most of the Lathe & Mill stuff on there is either advertising, or CNC demo's - I didn't seem to find a lot of tutorial-based stuff.
I found the Hong Kong Uni one before, and it's pretty basic. The web.mit.edu site looks a bit more 'into it', so I'll spend some time on there.
This may sound silly, but I'm as excited as a little kid to finally get my hands on the machines tomorrow.
And a big thankyou to you guys for sharing your knowledge and experience. Be prepared for a zillion dumb-*** questions down the track Lol. But no, seriously, thanks heaps...
BJ
I realise I'm gonna make a few botch-jobs in order to learn things. So long as all my body-parts stay where they are, it doesn't matter if I nuke a piece of work.
I'm headed off to an Aluminium place on Saturday to buy a couple of bucket-loads of scrap to start turning on the Lathe and play with on the Mill. I'll probably stick with Aluminium for a while, since that's probably what I'll be using mostly for aircraft.
I'll have to look up our local TAFE's (Technical And Further Education) and see what 'shop' classes they're running these days. I did a basic welding course (Oxy/Stick/Mig) with them a few years ago, and I couldn't believe how cheap they were. A hundred or so bucks, and all I had to do was turn up. It was like an 8 week course (2 nights a week?), and they supplied absolutely everything apart from my overalls. Lots of 1-on-1 tuition too, and you could stay after class to practice as well. Brilliant, I thought.
I have given YouTube a good working over, but most of the Lathe & Mill stuff on there is either advertising, or CNC demo's - I didn't seem to find a lot of tutorial-based stuff.
I found the Hong Kong Uni one before, and it's pretty basic. The web.mit.edu site looks a bit more 'into it', so I'll spend some time on there.
This may sound silly, but I'm as excited as a little kid to finally get my hands on the machines tomorrow.
And a big thankyou to you guys for sharing your knowledge and experience. Be prepared for a zillion dumb-*** questions down the track Lol. But no, seriously, thanks heaps...
BJ
