Ragz

I have been flying the eurosport lately and totally love the way it flies. I have the 120 in it currently, but next month is will get an LPSS. Cant wait to get her in the air with over 40lbs of brute thrust. Are there other planes that fly like an ES? The landings are just so incredibly easy... How does the Rafale B01 fly?

Stig Andersen

Hello Anurag.

I have flown both Eurosports and a large AD Rafale B01. The Eurosport has a lower wing loading so it will fly slower. Both planes are very stable in flight and they have no bad tendancies.

I personally like the looks of the Rafale better than the ES, but the flying caracteristics of the ES, even with a 12 kg turbine, is very hard (if not impossible) to beat.

Ragz

Hello Stig,
thanks for responding. I have 2 spare 120's that can be used in a bvm rafale b01. I have seen them fly and they fly fassssst.... i dont know how fast they land though. I am really keen on a twin turbine project with 120's. The ES fly's like a dream no doubt. But like you said, the b01 looks beautiful, have always dreamt of owning one. Can you tell me a bit about its flight characteristics?

Stig Andersen

I'm not sure if one can compare the flight characteristics of the AD Large Rafale and the BVM Rafale, but I have seen both fly, and they seem to fly great. Landing speed is maybe a bit higher than the ES, but not much. With the delta wing you can just keep adding elevator and throttle untill you scratch the tail of the airplane on the tarmac... It does not have en bad tendancies as long as you remember to ADD POWER as soon as the AOA rises.

I saw Dave Shulman fly the BVM factory Rafale at Florida Jets a couple of years ago. It can actually fly slow and do some crazy manouvers in his capable hands.

Attached is a picture of my AD Large Rafale.

Ragz

nice plane Stig. I will be at jet power next week and hope to speak to jet jocks there and get educated about the Rafale. thanks for your replies....are you coming to jet power?

Stig Andersen

Hello Anurag.

I hope to be there, but not 100% sure yet.

Ragz

I hope to see you there if you come. We are 4 people coming in from India.

Cheers

Anurag

David Gladwin

40 pounds of thrust in a Eurosport, You CAN'T be serious ! (Or what mods have you done to strengthen/stiffen the airframe to take the likely loads ? I finished my ES a couple of months ago with a derated Wren XL to try hovering, structurally its marginal for even that engine, but 40 pounds ? (6 pounds above the manufacturers stated MAX thrust, 34 pounds )

Last time I saw a Euro fly (in UK at Cottesmore, with a Rhino) it broke up, some of the internal structure of the wing had not been properly assembled and some structural components were undersize, which didn't help.

At least we were able to catch some of the wing confetti which fluttered down into the pits long after the rest had hit the ground !

Enjoy JetPower!

Regards,

David Gladwin.

P.S. Structural failure IS a real threat but we are going to bring it on ourselves if this overpowering trend continues. Erica Simpson, a US flight instuctor and Citation captain was killed at Reno yesterday when her Pitts suffered catastrophic wing failure.

Ragz

I get your point David. I also want to hover this plane and will surely not put the bigger engine unless I strengthen the frame. And if this makes the project unviable in terms of wing loading etc, then I guess I will not go ahead with it. I saw a video of a ES with a twin rhino setup including vectored thrust and that inspired me to use an LPSS in my ES. but you are right about the dangers of this "overpowering trend". I will surely keep this in mind before going nuts. Thanks for your valuable advice.

Regards

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Ah, 40 lbs of thrust in a Eurosport is almost a requirement if you want to hover it. One of the guys in the local area has one with a Rhino and thrust vectoring in it, and he has said several times that its just not enough power to effectively hover the aircraft. A LPSS would probably be perfect for that.

Structural failure IS a problem if you don't know how to pull the left stick (i.e., throttle for you mode 1 guys) back! Almost EVERY aircraft can be pulled apart if you're stupid...

While the accident you cite is terrible, I'll be it has almost nothing to do with what engine you put in a Eurosport...

Bob

Ragz

What areas in the airframe should one consider for beefing?

tizer33

Hi came across this on another forum thought you might like the pics taken from hercules ramp original thread here
http://www.rcheliaddict.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14057

CraigG

My Feedback: (40)

Ragz,

I have a BVM Rafale with a single AMT-450 (45lbs thrust). It is a very smooth and clean flying airplane, particularly in the roll axis, but is also capable of high-alpha flight. I can almost hover mine with just a slight headwind. Patrick Frost had one with twin P-120's and he could hover and then accelerate vertically.

Yes, the airplane can fly very fast but it can also slow down to a very reasonable landing speed. I have never had any trouble with landings, even in fairly strong crosswinds. I regard it as my best flying jet.

Craig

WhoDaMan

My Feedback: (164)

I have a Titan in my Euro and it flyes like a dream. I purchased it from a friend and then added the Titan,,, The plane has almost 230 flights on it

Dave

basimpsn

My Feedback: (5)

Question can the eurosport recover from any extreme maneuvers such as a flat spin or high alfa stall etc.

RonLongAZ

My Feedback: (29)

I have 4 Euros I have Titans in 3 and a Xl 200 in 1 I have 100s of flights on these Euros they can handle the thrust. If I had a 40 lb thrust motor it would be in there in a second. I know many people that fly these with p-180 45 lb thrust, with the only mod on the conard arms. thats it. If it were me I would fly it with the 40 pounder. Have fun you will enjoy yourself having the fastest Euro around.


Ronald R Long

David Gladwin

OK, question is then where DO we stop ? So now its 40 pounders, after that what, someone will keep upping the ante until ?

Never any intention of flying my ES fast, like C-arf says its not for that type of flying, fin and elevon flutter, canard flutter/failure, wing strength, internal fuselage pressurising from the HUGE intake without any proper internal flow management, no thanks.

I know I am far from being the only one concerned about overpowering, but I am in no-one's pockets so free to speak up about it and as there is clearly a trend towards installing big engines in airframes not designed to handle it (you can see it on RCU threads) I feel its an issue which should/must be debated.

I know the ES is a fine flying machine, why I bought one, and is adequately strong (providing its glued together correctly, mine wasn't) when suitably powered.

I raised the issue of the Pitts wing failure to illustrate the fact that structural failure can occurr in the best regulated aviation, however, if we keep stuffing big engines into airframes never designed to handle such thrust we are bringing structural failure a whole lot closer than we need to, with unpredictable consequences. Yep, I know you can overstress aircraft with even lower power if you are heavy on the sticks, in fact most aircraft can be broken with ZERO thrust, just stuff the nose down to terminal velocity and put the stick in the corner !

Interestingly in the thread about someone stuffing a 160 into BobCat to go FAST I invited reps to comment on this overpowering trend, the silence was/is deafening !

Regards, David.

Question :

At 120 mph the 3inch by 10inch ES intake will take about 38 cubic feet of air per second, about 1000litres/second. A Wren XL 200 takes about 250 litres/second at full power, obviously less at reduced thrust. That makes an excess of 750 litre/second to be disposed of using an unducted fuselage with restrictive vertical formers etc. I have heard of hatches being blown off, wings failing possibly due to internal pressurisation, does that come as an surprise, just where was this surplus air supposed to go, particulary if gear doors are fitted. ? Even a small overpressure can generate considerable loads when applied to a large surface. I added large holes in the rear former to allow air to escape but saw no mention of that in the instructions in my kit., although I belive that has been changed in later kits. Go faster and the problem worsens.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

The difference David, as I see it, is that the Euro is a 3D machine, not a speed machine. Take a look at any 3D prop plane and a greater than 1:1 thrust-to-weight is the norm - heck most are close to 2:1, including the Comp-ARF 2.1m Extra I have. These airframes, like the Euro, can be pulled apart with that much thrust, but for effective hovering, that's what you need.

Putting a 40+ lb thrust turbine in a Euro is not inherently dangerous, but you have to be careful and fly it with responsibility.

Bob

Patrick Frost

My Feedback: (88)

Craig,

My Rafale had twin TITANs and it was one of the smoothest aircraft I have flown next to my F-100D. I never flew it more than 3/4 throttle in typical flying conditions but would use 75-85% throttle to hover it and it WOULD climb vertically when you punched it. Sure was alot of fun. I hope to have another one soon as I felt it was a superb flying bird.

David Gladwin

I agree, Bob, it IS a 3d machine but people are talking about putting big engines into this and other airframes with the intention of greater speed , and that IS concerning, but even 3d can impose large stress loads on any airfarame and more thrust, and weight, exacerbates the problem ! I certainly WONT be flying the fastest Euro around !

With respect, I don't think you can really compare thrust levels with prop planes, (piston or turboprop) with their rapid thrust decay with forward speed, which makes speed self LIMITING, whereas jet thrust decays much less with forward speed, resulting generally with much greater speed for a given amount of static thrust, compared with the static thrust produced by a propellor.

Al least we are debating the issue !

Regards, David.

Ragz

Even with the 120 i have in my ES, I dont find myself punching the throttle unless i want to go vertical or harrier the aircraft...its so comfortable to just cruise around with the ES even with a half throttled 120. The LPSS will only make the low slow glide convert into a vertical acceleration possible. I have seen videos of Todd flying his Merlin powered ES and boy does that look cool. What David states here is spot on, but with with caution and care i guess its not so bad. Its like an F1 car, if you dont know when to brake, it will hit the tyre wall before you bat an eyelid.

David Gladwin

Glad to see you see it that way, Anurag.

As I said earlier DO enjoy JetPower. Can't make it myself as we have one of our main jet meetings in Australia at that time (come and join us next year, you wil be most welcome). I hear a rumour that Kingfisher may be extending their routes to Australia soon using 777-300ERs

Do take time out to visit Weatronic, after a full briefing on the new 2.4 units in London last week, I am sure you will see some quite amazing avionics on their stand !

Regards,

David.