Hello all

Lately i have noticed there are many manufactures prodcuing turbines.
Some people claims the market is saturated with turbine because only (X) amount of people can afford them at the current price range.

Do any of you guys think that the price of turbines engines would be going lower anytime. If yes when ?

Also will their design become simpler.

It's just like anything else in this hobby. Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?? I know of two gas engine manufacturers whose largest top of the line competition twins are as much or more than some of the turbines. And dont even think of trying to purchase a GLOW radial engine in the 5 or 7 cylinder range. You can almost buy two turbines for what you would pay for one of those. Lets look at reality, the turbine market is not aimed at the average everyday fun flyer. Hell, some of the guys I fly with do good to handle their 1/4 scale IMAC planes, let alone a 200 mph turbine powered jet. I dont really want the price of turbines to come down within the reach of every flyer, because every flyer is not experienced enough to handle them. Somewhere along the line, some common sense has to enter into the equation. But in direct answer to your original question, I think the price of the Wren MW54 kits and a couple of others like the Mamba are about as low as you will see a turbine priced for a while. There is a lot of precision machining and technology in those little 90,000 rpm screamers, and it cost a bunch to make one. Even if a cheaper one does hit the market, it wont do you a bit of good until it has gone through the AMA certification process.

I would offer this opinion:

Turbines are as simple as they are going to get, from a manufacturing perspective there really isnt that much to them. If you saw one dissassembled you would say "wow - thats it?" The major costs in parts are the compressor, cast turbine and bearings. That is a fixed cost. The rest takes "x" amount of time to make, and with today's CNC machining centers and lathes I doubt it will get any faster.

But, look a t the last 4 or 5 years. The price has dropped quite a bit, and on the used market there are deals to be had.

I just saw a brand new unrun Artes KJ66 sell on ebay for $1050 US, after the fellow couldnt sell it here on the RCU buy/sell pages for his asking price. That was about what I paid for my home made one for parts and the controller!!

I dont think there will ever be a proliferation of "200 mph jets" in the hands of less than qualified pilots, anymore than there is are 100's of unqualified diamond dust, whiplash, etc flyers who can buy a $500 plane/engine and go faster than many jets... Just because you have a turbine doesnt mean you can afford the airframe or have the skills to put one together, untill of course the ARF market gets more into the turbine crowd.

I think the prices will come down yet a bit more, but not too much more. Also, as the years go by our dollar gets relatively weaker so if the same engine costs the same 5 years from now its actually cheaper.

And not every jet flyer gives a hoot about the AMA cert. since it only applies to those in the USA that want to fly at AMA clubs/events. Thats still only a percentage of jet pilots world wide.

AJC

Thank you very much for responses.

Its good to read a well thought out response and i like that.



I am from the Bahamas = no AMA

I agree with you all, some common sense has to kick in. But with turbine trainers becoming more popular ( av8r and facets) I belive it will be left up to the buyers discretion. ( not all turbine will go 200mph)

Most people think turbines is synonomous with jet type plane.
I guess not anymore.

Thats totally what I thihk also. I doubt if I will ever want to have a fully loaded military heavy jet, where I live it would be silly. Only short grass fields unless you drive 8 to 10 hours.

I started getting the jet "bug" from reading Schreckling and Kamp's books years ago. They allways had pictures of "basic trainer" type planes and the fun was jet power, not necessarily a scale military jet zooming at a scale mach III.

I think as more people get turbines, there will be more of the sport wood/foam planes and thats great. When I fly my Reaper its just as though I am flying any other of my planes, but it sounds different and has a certain "fun" aspect a prop plane cannot give.

I think most guys into jets see things differently due to being ONLY into jets.

For those like me that like all kinds of sport planes, having a turbine "trainer" is just another sport plane I take and fly like any other. That is cool, and since things are so reliable and "easy" now (I dont need any help setting up and getting ready to fly, allthough I do allways use a helper just in case) its not any harder in my opinion than setting up a big gasser or even a glow engine plane.

AJC

I have to disagree with the guys saying that the cost is good because it stops most people doing 200mph.

My BVM Viper should be ready to fly soon with a near new BVM91 and Viojett.

RTF Its only cost me less than 1/2 the turbine cost and if that doesn't break 220mph I'd be quite suprised. It will be some time before I can afford a turbine but I'll be going just as fast in the mean time.

I do agree however that costs wont go down. In fact I'd say with the current competition more business' will go under which will lead to increased prices.

LowLevlDevl,
I disagree! I don't see how the higher price of a turbine stops an under experienced pilot from flying one? True, it may weed out some that don't have the $$ to piss away to a smoking hole but there are many that have more $$ than brains. Then you have the exceptionally capable pilot that just cant afford to spend 2500.00 on a motor! It's not the price of a turbine that weeds out the incapable / inexperienced pilots, it's the waiver process!

Just my .02
Todd

Do you remenber the price of the 4 stroke engines 20 years ago ? It was about the same price of the turbine now.
I think when China o Taiwan manufacturers begin in turbine market the price will down to the ground

Of course it will be good for the customers and too bad for the actual manufacturer. but it happen before with the normal engines and, i am sure, it will do again

In about 1980 Bill Gates said that you would never need more than 540K of RAM in a computer, and in the late 80's he said that the internet would be a "fad" that would disappear. People also said the same about Rap music. Well as these examples show the future always holds something unexpected and unpredictable. 4 years ago who would have thought that you could get a good NEW turbine for $1595 ? Better yet, 10 years ago who would have thought that you could get high quality ARF's (about as good as you could build yourself or better) for the same price as you could build a kit for? ... Just food for thought, I think it would be a natural evolution for the price of turbines to go down, to a certain extent we are still in the infancy of the turbine section of our hobby, it can only get better from here.
Just my 2 cents

Michael

Oh i forgot that china and japan havent even yet got into the market.


Also theres a post claiming $800.00 turbines being made in Canada ?


Another quick question, cause i dont want to digress from the main topic.

A 200mph turbine or a 200 mph ducted fan ( what the diffrence)

or say as for the trainer turbines ( about 100 mph)

How exactly does having wads of cash to throw at a turbine engine equate to flying competence? Are only the wealthy elite intelligent, and skilled enough to handle them?
It all sounds rather Elitist to me...

Dont let a few guys who think turbines should be only in the hands of "the select" stop you.

Turbines are not any harder to run today (assuming a modern ecu and engine) than setteing up a glow or gas engine.

As far as safety goes, again, if you follow the rules set out by groups like the GTBA and your respective country's governing body for model aircraft, they arent any more dangerous (and in some cases less!) than a large engine/prop! Yes, you are carrying a bit of fuel and have the means to get it lit IF the worst case happens, but so have large gasers carrying 50 ounces of gasoline.

I for one look forward to seeeing more fellows into turbine powered aircraft, especially around my area. It would make it a lot more fun than it is allready.

As for the $800 Canadian turbines, as far as I know they were nothing but talk as of yet. I would like to see that though!

AJC

First of all, no where in my post did I say that only the rich select few should be able to fly turbines, that is stupid.

Secondly, no one said they are any harder to set up and run than todays glow engines.

What I was trying to say (and apparently some individuals lack the insight to see it) was that regardless of whether they come down in price or not, NOT EVERY SINGLE FLYER IN THE WORLD IS CAPABLE OF OPERATING A TURBINE POWERED AIRCRAFT whether you want to believe it or not. And yes, I do know guys who would run right out and buy a turbine for their second plane if they could afford it. These are the people I am refering to when I say that I dont feel everyone should be able to own one. ANd you cant sit there and honestly tell me that you dont know a pilot or two that would do the same thing. Just because you can afford to buy a turbine, whether cheap or expensive, in NO WAY coorelates to the fact that you have the experience to operate it in safe controlled flight.

I was in no way saying that only the richy rich types should be able to fly turbines (believe me, I have saved for three years just to buy my first engine for mine). I am just saying that regardless of what you may think, there are some pilots out there who, given the opportunity, would purchase a turbine powered aircraft way too soon for their skill level, and I think the higher prices keep some of these guys from hurting themselves, someone else, or maybe even the image of this part of the hobby. If you think that is having an "elitist" attitude, well, too bad.

QUOTE: FROM TODD
It's not the price of a turbine that weeds out the incapable / inexperienced pilots, it's the waiver process!

LowLevl,
The above quote is indicating you dont want to see the price of turbines drop to a price that is "within the reach of every flyer". That's your words not ours. The rest of us were capable of reading that! Again, the price of turbines has NOTHING to do with pilot skill. I agree, there are many that are not capable or have not aquired enough skill yet to operate a turbine powered aircraft. This is why we have a turbine waiver! The waiver process is designed to weed these individuals out. Your comments indicated $$$ and skill go hand in hand.... No need to get in a huff, just stating I disagreed with the comments above as I understood them.
Todd

Yeah what he said...
I understand that you meant that the high prices of turbines is good because it discourages frivolous purchase, and careless use of a model which has more potential for destruction due to higher speeds, difficult handling characteristics, and larger loads of fuel. Not to mention more complicated, and exacting construction than your average glow model.
But. that wasn't what you SAID so I couldn't let it slide without comment.

If you were referring to my post, I didnt say anything about cost - just that there IS an auro in the jet fraternity (not all, but some definitely) that jets are hard to fly, too advanced for many, etc...

Yes, you but you will also see this in many other areas of this hobby where (a) a lot of money is involved (like in giant scale aerobatics) and (b) where a perceived skill level is needed

This is fair enough, but with today's planes and engines, a lot of guys probably COULD fly a trainer jet for thier second or third plane, believe it or not. I have seen guys flying for less than a year that are into advanced aerobatics and stuff that many experienced pilots are still trying to learn.

It all comes down to picking an airframe/engine combo that can be flown with success.

Trying to fly an advanced turbine powered jet when you are not ready it not, in my opinion, any different that trying to fly a heavy WWII warbird in 1/4 scale with a 100cc or larger gasolione engine that can exceed 150mph. We rely on our clubs and other flyers with good advice to steer the newcomers in any of the disciplines, dont we? Then why should it be any differewnt with turbine powered planes? AGain, IMO, it should not...

I think myself its somewhat of a "prestige" thing to some of us, to own and fly what the average model airplane enthusiast cannot. When the price barrier is gone.... then its gone.

AJC

Well guys from my point of view, for what its worth. I will be buying my first turbine engine and plane next year. I have been a sport and sport/scale and pattern flyer for the last 18+ years. And right now I am building a new JHH FJ-3 Fury the Navy version of the F86. Its getting a new OS 46VX and Turbax I and will be my first ducted fan jet. I also have a new OS 91VF that I need an airplane to put into I have a new Dynamax fan coming for it. So next year after I get my turbine waiver(Yes I am an AMA member of 18+ years also) So I am looking at the Simjet 1700 AES thats 20+ pounds of thrust which I would love to put into an Avonds F15 I would love to install the scale landing gear as well as ailerons and flaps. I have heard of some guys doing this. So I wont just be an idiot with a turbine jet. I have flown some pretty fast piston planes in the past that could have done their share of damage. I for one cant wait for the turbine prices to come down even more so it will make it easier for me to buy one. But even if the stay the same for the time being I will still buy one. And I look forward to joining my fellow turbine flyers.
Joe

I guess, looking back over my original post, I did not say clearly what I was intending to get across. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.