*** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
06-27-2010, 01:30 PM
#1
*** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Ireceived this from Frank Tiano this morning and he has asked me to share this with everybody here. This involves all of his events including Florida Jets, Top Gun, and Monster Planes. The changes will start with Monster Planes later this year.
To all Top Gun past and future contestants.
I have been granted the luxury of sharing some very good news with you here on this forum and on several others as well. The news is in several parts, each affecting the other so please bear with me for a few moments.
First, Top Gun, Florida Jets, Monster Planes and the new events we are planning will be held at a new and different part of Lakeland Airport, starting with “Monster Planes”, this Autumn. The new area is being constructed as you read this and will feature an 800 x 70 foot runway of beautiful Bermuda Grass. The overruns will be grass also and will have no “lip” so if anyone lands short of long there is no consequence to the landing gear or airframe. The flying area out in front of a pilot and to each side is unrestricted.
Top Gun will get a Rules Change, perhaps the last one for awhile. Because the Grass Runway enhances the takeoff behavior of tail dragger aircraft, we find it no longer necessary to reward those airplanes with a bonus score. There is an extra portion of runway that will allow tail draggers to take off into the wind, should cross wind conditions prevail.
The Top Gun Board has decided to add one new class and limit another. First, the Team Scale class must consist of a Builder and a Pilot. The Builder must be the “owner” of the model and must have financed the construction himself, with aid from the pilot if needed. NO outside, financial, intervention is allowed in this class, starting 2011.
The NEW class is titled “Unrestricted”. The Unrestricted Class will be comprised of a Minimum of THREE crew members and a Maximum of 6. The model may be funded by any person or group of people, a manufacturer, a company outside the hobby industry, we don't care! There are NO rules concerning the building of the model at all. ALL other rules of Top Gun static judging and flying do apply. We ask that ALL Team Members of the Unrestricted Class wear Team Colors, team clothing so to speak. We want to create some interest in model aviation, bring back some spark to Top Gun and we feel this class, looking similar to a NASCAR team, may be a step in the right direction. Unrestricted Class will be funded with prize money and awards the same as the other classes.
The Last Three things:
ONE: ARF models are allowed in Pro-Am, as long as the outline is considered by Frank Tiano, Chief Judge Bill Holland or Head Static Judge Bob Curry to be accurate enough to be in the spirit if the event. Permission to enter the model must be received before the event.
TWO: The one thing that still remains “unfair” to most contestants at Top Gun is that molded fuselages and wings with perfect skins and defined panel lines and surface details are sure to get excellent Craftsmanship Ratings. These higher scores are without a doubt easier to achieve with composite structures than with wooden components that have been hand formed, sanded, fiberglassed, sanded again, primered, detailed by hand and painted. With that in mind we feel there should be some sort of adjustment to the Craftsmanship Score only on Composite aircraft. And we mean where all components are composite, not a model featuring just a fiberglass fuselage. We have not decided how to do this yet and all we can promise is that the adjustment will be small, and fair.
THREE: We are amending the TIMED OUT Rule effective with 2011 Top Gun. A model may compete more than three or four times. The only limitation is that if the model has placed in the Top Three a total of three times, then it IS timed out. We feel this will allow some contestants, who have found it difficult to prepare a new model over the past several years, a chance to rejoin us.
Buy the way, we are considering to have ALL events we produce to END on Saturday, leaving Sunday for open flying for those who wish to do so while we are tearing the event down. But advertised dates will be Thursday thru Saturday for all events other than Top Gun. We are thinking that Top Gun might be able to run Tuesday thru Saturday.
ALL Input and Comments are welcome to [email protected].
I have been granted the luxury of sharing some very good news with you here on this forum and on several others as well. The news is in several parts, each affecting the other so please bear with me for a few moments.
First, Top Gun, Florida Jets, Monster Planes and the new events we are planning will be held at a new and different part of Lakeland Airport, starting with “Monster Planes”, this Autumn. The new area is being constructed as you read this and will feature an 800 x 70 foot runway of beautiful Bermuda Grass. The overruns will be grass also and will have no “lip” so if anyone lands short of long there is no consequence to the landing gear or airframe. The flying area out in front of a pilot and to each side is unrestricted.
Top Gun will get a Rules Change, perhaps the last one for awhile. Because the Grass Runway enhances the takeoff behavior of tail dragger aircraft, we find it no longer necessary to reward those airplanes with a bonus score. There is an extra portion of runway that will allow tail draggers to take off into the wind, should cross wind conditions prevail.
The Top Gun Board has decided to add one new class and limit another. First, the Team Scale class must consist of a Builder and a Pilot. The Builder must be the “owner” of the model and must have financed the construction himself, with aid from the pilot if needed. NO outside, financial, intervention is allowed in this class, starting 2011.
The NEW class is titled “Unrestricted”. The Unrestricted Class will be comprised of a Minimum of THREE crew members and a Maximum of 6. The model may be funded by any person or group of people, a manufacturer, a company outside the hobby industry, we don't care! There are NO rules concerning the building of the model at all. ALL other rules of Top Gun static judging and flying do apply. We ask that ALL Team Members of the Unrestricted Class wear Team Colors, team clothing so to speak. We want to create some interest in model aviation, bring back some spark to Top Gun and we feel this class, looking similar to a NASCAR team, may be a step in the right direction. Unrestricted Class will be funded with prize money and awards the same as the other classes.
The Last Three things:
ONE: ARF models are allowed in Pro-Am, as long as the outline is considered by Frank Tiano, Chief Judge Bill Holland or Head Static Judge Bob Curry to be accurate enough to be in the spirit if the event. Permission to enter the model must be received before the event.
TWO: The one thing that still remains “unfair” to most contestants at Top Gun is that molded fuselages and wings with perfect skins and defined panel lines and surface details are sure to get excellent Craftsmanship Ratings. These higher scores are without a doubt easier to achieve with composite structures than with wooden components that have been hand formed, sanded, fiberglassed, sanded again, primered, detailed by hand and painted. With that in mind we feel there should be some sort of adjustment to the Craftsmanship Score only on Composite aircraft. And we mean where all components are composite, not a model featuring just a fiberglass fuselage. We have not decided how to do this yet and all we can promise is that the adjustment will be small, and fair.
THREE: We are amending the TIMED OUT Rule effective with 2011 Top Gun. A model may compete more than three or four times. The only limitation is that if the model has placed in the Top Three a total of three times, then it IS timed out. We feel this will allow some contestants, who have found it difficult to prepare a new model over the past several years, a chance to rejoin us.
Buy the way, we are considering to have ALL events we produce to END on Saturday, leaving Sunday for open flying for those who wish to do so while we are tearing the event down. But advertised dates will be Thursday thru Saturday for all events other than Top Gun. We are thinking that Top Gun might be able to run Tuesday thru Saturday.
ALL Input and Comments are welcome to [email protected].
07-15-2010, 08:16 AM
#4
My Feedback: (6)
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
I find it weird to judge jet models taking off from grass runways ....what effect will that have on their over all scale realism ? Top Gun used to be held on a site of a Polo field in the 90's and it was problematic even then with soil being wet and soft after rain causing the models to nose over and landing gears being stripped off due to the force impact caused by abrupt deceleration on landing.
WJM Scale Judge.
WJM Scale Judge.
07-16-2010, 07:18 AM
#5
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
ORIGINAL: lavi rider
I find it weird to judge jet models taking off from grass runways ....what effect will that have on their over all scale realism ? Top Gun used to be held on a site of a Polo field in the 90's and it was problematic even then with soil being wet and soft after rain causing the models to nose over and landing gears being stripped off due to the force impact caused by abrupt deceleration on landing.
WJM Scale Judge.
I find it weird to judge jet models taking off from grass runways ....what effect will that have on their over all scale realism ? Top Gun used to be held on a site of a Polo field in the 90's and it was problematic even then with soil being wet and soft after rain causing the models to nose over and landing gears being stripped off due to the force impact caused by abrupt deceleration on landing.
WJM Scale Judge.
Pablo
07-17-2010, 11:09 AM
#7
My Feedback: (6)
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
What is your point then? It's fine to have one of the most important scale competitions where the competitors bring in their finest craftmanship and have them say to themselvs HMMMMMM I might rip off my gear due to ......a site which is in a manner inapropriate .
What about the judges and the comment reagding bonus points removed due to ,A, B, C ....now there will be bonus points added to a sucsessful landing of a model on wet and soft grass ? .....
How would those super scale jets look to the observer and judges hopping of the grass on takeoff.....will that non scale realism in flight be overlooked ?
In my humble oppinion I think that it is enough trouble for the competitor to be qulified for competition .....fly and sucsessfuly operate the model .....I mean that the chances for something to go wrong are that many . Now he will have one more major challenge and a chance to critically damage his property on top of all that....
In a more humorous manner why not have everybody install floats on their models and have the competition on a lake because a proper site was nowhere to be found....
What about the judges and the comment reagding bonus points removed due to ,A, B, C ....now there will be bonus points added to a sucsessful landing of a model on wet and soft grass ? .....
How would those super scale jets look to the observer and judges hopping of the grass on takeoff.....will that non scale realism in flight be overlooked ?
In my humble oppinion I think that it is enough trouble for the competitor to be qulified for competition .....fly and sucsessfuly operate the model .....I mean that the chances for something to go wrong are that many . Now he will have one more major challenge and a chance to critically damage his property on top of all that....
In a more humorous manner why not have everybody install floats on their models and have the competition on a lake because a proper site was nowhere to be found....
07-17-2010, 11:46 AM
#8
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Hi Lavi R,
Having flown off the Top Gun site with my JWM scale jet back in 2001 I can say that if the grass is well maintained as it will be at Top Gun, then there are zero issues with scale landing gear with jets as there would be with any other scale model. Problem is that if you are used to tarmac or paved runways, you have to add some more power on taxi, that is all.
As for jets "hopping off the grass" that is not the case at all, if the pilot knows his model and its flight envelope well enough.
When flying from grass at Top Gun, you are not talking about a ploughed field so damage to the model on the taxi, take off and landing is no more or less that that of paved surfaces. . . . . The problem is the ability of the pilot to controlhis/her model corectly.
Here is a video of my f-18 back in 2001 to proove the pointthat landing on grass does not damage a scale model.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=YMrDzEObO5w
Having flown off the Top Gun site with my JWM scale jet back in 2001 I can say that if the grass is well maintained as it will be at Top Gun, then there are zero issues with scale landing gear with jets as there would be with any other scale model. Problem is that if you are used to tarmac or paved runways, you have to add some more power on taxi, that is all.
As for jets "hopping off the grass" that is not the case at all, if the pilot knows his model and its flight envelope well enough.
When flying from grass at Top Gun, you are not talking about a ploughed field so damage to the model on the taxi, take off and landing is no more or less that that of paved surfaces. . . . . The problem is the ability of the pilot to controlhis/her model corectly.
Here is a video of my f-18 back in 2001 to proove the pointthat landing on grass does not damage a scale model.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=YMrDzEObO5w
07-17-2010, 11:56 AM
#9
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Who are you talking to? If me...my point is exactly what I wrote. If you really want to talk about scale and Top Gun...besides the U.S jets from the past 50 years...almost every other plane that attends in real life flew off of grass, dirt roads...what ever at one point or another including the Soviet Block jet fighters. Look at the 3W Super Show, Le Ferte ETC...many meets are held on grass. If you don't want to fly off of grass...stay home. Landing on grass surly can not be worse that watching an F-18 try to land on a 25 MPH 90 degree cross wind and lawn dart itself in the process trying to get down on the taxi way. Everything else will be fine.
As to Florida Jets, I feel (and having heard discussions amongst pilots at a meet I was recently at), the attendance will be really hurt because of it. The belief is that mostly only sport jets and the type will attend with most of the scale jets staying home. I'll still go because all of my stuff flies off of grass quite well, even my scale bird.
Lavi, just curious, but will you be attending Florida Jets or Top Gun in 2011?
Cheers,
Beave
As to Florida Jets, I feel (and having heard discussions amongst pilots at a meet I was recently at), the attendance will be really hurt because of it. The belief is that mostly only sport jets and the type will attend with most of the scale jets staying home. I'll still go because all of my stuff flies off of grass quite well, even my scale bird.
Lavi, just curious, but will you be attending Florida Jets or Top Gun in 2011?
Cheers,
Beave
07-17-2010, 02:14 PM
#11
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Hey Bean...of course you would disagree...because to agree would require you to have inner strength, common knowledge about practically anything, the maturity of at least a first grader and the intellectual capacity to be able to make an argument.
Sadly, you lack every one of these qualities.
Beave
PS. Heck...you can't fly period...so grass or pavement is not a factor!
Sadly, you lack every one of these qualities.
Beave
PS. Heck...you can't fly period...so grass or pavement is not a factor!
ORIGINAL: rbean2
Hey Beave, I disagree with anything you say. I can't fly off grass or tarmac!
Hey Beave, I disagree with anything you say. I can't fly off grass or tarmac!
07-17-2010, 02:51 PM
#13
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RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Hey Beave,
I may not be the smartest person, but I do have the tools and means to turn your puny little ***** into a puddle of yuk and to make life eating thru a straw a way of life. I WILL make it to Florida Jets, hope to see you there......
I may not be the smartest person, but I do have the tools and means to turn your puny little ***** into a puddle of yuk and to make life eating thru a straw a way of life. I WILL make it to Florida Jets, hope to see you there......
07-17-2010, 03:46 PM
#14
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Yo Bean,
Your opening statement is right on the money...that's for sure. Honestly, you could probably accomplish all of your stated lofty goals with your breath alone. Why wait until FJ 2011 to walk the walk tough guy? I'll be at Super Jets next month so why don't you show up this time instead of another "Oh...I can't make it...my wife says I have to clear her kitchen cabinets or she will beat me again" or some other less than a man excuse.
Bring it on fat boy!
Beave [sm=punching.gif]
Your opening statement is right on the money...that's for sure. Honestly, you could probably accomplish all of your stated lofty goals with your breath alone. Why wait until FJ 2011 to walk the walk tough guy? I'll be at Super Jets next month so why don't you show up this time instead of another "Oh...I can't make it...my wife says I have to clear her kitchen cabinets or she will beat me again" or some other less than a man excuse.
Bring it on fat boy!
Beave [sm=punching.gif]
ORIGINAL: rbean2
Hey Beave,
I may not be the smartest person, but I do have the tools and means to turn your puny little ***** into a puddle of yuk and to make life eating thru a straw a way of life. I WILL make it to Florida Jets, hope to see you there......
Hey Beave,
I may not be the smartest person, but I do have the tools and means to turn your puny little ***** into a puddle of yuk and to make life eating thru a straw a way of life. I WILL make it to Florida Jets, hope to see you there......
07-17-2010, 06:19 PM
#15
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RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Forgot about Georgia, yeah I will bring it on. Don't forget to bring someone to hold your teeth and the towel for your tears. My "fat boy" will definitely be there. Don't hide again and ask others to lie about your where abouts again. See you soon "Bally"!!
07-17-2010, 06:50 PM
#17
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Well well well...lookie here. So it seems like the ball and chain is going to remove your stones from the jar she keeps them in over the fire place and is going to hand them back to you? Far out...lets dance tub of guts!
Teeth? what would you know about teeth? It's a well known fact that your family invented tooth paste...because if anyone else had done it...they would have called it teeth paste!
Oh yeah...when you show up...wear yellow pants...that way the stain wont show up as bad this time when you soil yourself.
Beave
Teeth? what would you know about teeth? It's a well known fact that your family invented tooth paste...because if anyone else had done it...they would have called it teeth paste!
Oh yeah...when you show up...wear yellow pants...that way the stain wont show up as bad this time when you soil yourself.
Beave
ORIGINAL: rbean2
Forgot about Georgia, yeah I will bring it on. Don't forget to bring someone to hold your teeth and the towel for your tears. My ''fat boy'' will definitely be there. Don't hide again and ask others to lie about your where abouts again. See you soon ''Bally''!!
Forgot about Georgia, yeah I will bring it on. Don't forget to bring someone to hold your teeth and the towel for your tears. My ''fat boy'' will definitely be there. Don't hide again and ask others to lie about your where abouts again. See you soon ''Bally''!!
07-18-2010, 07:41 AM
#19
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
I was preparing an F-18 for TG last year, but didn't finish it in time. Was planning to go in 2011, but if it is off of grass, I won't go. For those who haven't seen Florida grass, it isn't nice down here, unless they are going to make it like a golf green. So far, all of the grass runways that I have been to down here are not nice and smooth. I even belong to one, but only fly my IMAC plane there. But, for me, I won't fly my $10K jet off of a grass runway. The extra wear and tear plus dirt getting into the brakes, gear joints, etc. TG is also during the dry season, there is the possiblity of burning the grass with the turbines. Helps the WWI planes, but not the jets. The WWII planes will also benefit.
07-18-2010, 08:37 AM
#20
My Feedback: (6)
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
I did attend Florida jets back in 2004 it was an awesome experience ....not sure if I can make it to 2011....however when Top gun was held at Palm Springs Polo Club after every time it rained models started loosing parts during landing ....see videos from 1993 ,1994.....[:@]
07-18-2010, 08:49 AM
#21
My Feedback: (6)
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Dear Dave ,
I've seen your video and all I can say that it was a lucky day or week at that place as the field was dry, but I had the opportunity to see the poor unlucky ones back it 1994, where some 8 or 10 models where critically damaged due to that exact field after a rainy day...
Other than that you're right as to the fact that a pilot in a position of competing in such a tournament is to be well familiar with his models capabilities....
I've seen your video and all I can say that it was a lucky day or week at that place as the field was dry, but I had the opportunity to see the poor unlucky ones back it 1994, where some 8 or 10 models where critically damaged due to that exact field after a rainy day...
Other than that you're right as to the fact that a pilot in a position of competing in such a tournament is to be well familiar with his models capabilities....
07-18-2010, 08:49 AM
#22
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Lavi,
The dates you quote are from 17 and 18 years ago...come on...give me a break. Also, Palm Springs is in California...Top Gun was held in Wellington, FL.
Beave
The dates you quote are from 17 and 18 years ago...come on...give me a break. Also, Palm Springs is in California...Top Gun was held in Wellington, FL.
Beave
ORIGINAL: lavi rider
I did attend Florida jets back in 2004 it was an awesome experience ....not sure if I can make it to 2011....however when Top gun was held at Palm Springs Polo Club after every time it rained models started loosing parts during landing ....see videos from 1993 ,1994.....[:@]
I did attend Florida jets back in 2004 it was an awesome experience ....not sure if I can make it to 2011....however when Top gun was held at Palm Springs Polo Club after every time it rained models started loosing parts during landing ....see videos from 1993 ,1994.....[:@]
07-18-2010, 09:05 AM
#23
My Feedback: (6)
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
ORIGINAL: bevar
Who are you talking to? If me...my point is exactly what I wrote. If you really want to talk about scale and Top Gun...besides the U.S jets from the past 50 years...almost every other plane that attends in real life flew off of grass, dirt roads...what ever at one point or another including the Soviet Block jet fighters. Look at the 3W Super Show, Le Ferte ETC...many meets are held on grass. If you don't want to fly off of grass...stay home. Landing on grass surly can not be worse that watching an F-18 try to land on a 25 MPH 90 degree cross wind and lawn dart itself in the process trying to get down on the taxi way. Everything else will be fine.
As to Florida Jets, I feel (and having heard discussions amongst pilots at a meet I was recently at), the attendance will be really hurt because of it. The belief is that mostly only sport jets and the type will attend with most of the scale jets staying home. I'll still go because all of my stuff flies off of grass quite well, even my scale bird.
Lavi, just curious, but will you be attending Florida Jets or Top Gun in 2011?
Cheers,
Beave
Who are you talking to? If me...my point is exactly what I wrote. If you really want to talk about scale and Top Gun...besides the U.S jets from the past 50 years...almost every other plane that attends in real life flew off of grass, dirt roads...what ever at one point or another including the Soviet Block jet fighters. Look at the 3W Super Show, Le Ferte ETC...many meets are held on grass. If you don't want to fly off of grass...stay home. Landing on grass surly can not be worse that watching an F-18 try to land on a 25 MPH 90 degree cross wind and lawn dart itself in the process trying to get down on the taxi way. Everything else will be fine.
As to Florida Jets, I feel (and having heard discussions amongst pilots at a meet I was recently at), the attendance will be really hurt because of it. The belief is that mostly only sport jets and the type will attend with most of the scale jets staying home. I'll still go because all of my stuff flies off of grass quite well, even my scale bird.
Lavi, just curious, but will you be attending Florida Jets or Top Gun in 2011?
Cheers,
Beave
I'm very well familiar with soviet block jets ......and only a handful of them were designed to operate from High quality dirt-roads ..... My comment was not whether I want to fly off grass or not ....In was speaking of the competitors workload that is intense enough without throwing another potential of hazard at them.....second I was aiming at the efect of judging models from their scale realism point of view....
I am planning to come to Florida jets as I always do, but seem to miss the opportunity every time since my last visit in 2004 .....
07-18-2010, 10:07 AM
#25
RE: *** Top Gun 2011 & Frank Tiano's Events ***
Lavi,
Almost all of the soviet fighters were designed to be flown off of "unimproved strips" in the event of the "big one". I'm surprised that you do not know that.
Beave
Almost all of the soviet fighters were designed to be flown off of "unimproved strips" in the event of the "big one". I'm surprised that you do not know that.
Beave
ORIGINAL: lavi rider
Dear Beave
I'm very well familiar with soviet block jets ......and only a handful of them were designed to operate from High quality dirt-roads ..... My comment was not whether I want to fly off grass or not ....In was speaking of the competitors workload that is intense enough without throwing another potential of hazard at them.....second I was aiming at the efect of judging models from their scale realism point of view....
I am planning to come to Florida jets as I always do, but seem to miss the opportunity every time since my last visit in 2004 .....
ORIGINAL: bevar
Who are you talking to? If me...my point is exactly what I wrote. If you really want to talk about scale and Top Gun...besides the U.S jets from the past 50 years...almost every other plane that attends in real life flew off of grass, dirt roads...what ever at one point or another including the Soviet Block jet fighters. Look at the 3W Super Show, Le Ferte ETC...many meets are held on grass. If you don't want to fly off of grass...stay home. Landing on grass surly can not be worse that watching an F-18 try to land on a 25 MPH 90 degree cross wind and lawn dart itself in the process trying to get down on the taxi way. Everything else will be fine.
As to Florida Jets, I feel (and having heard discussions amongst pilots at a meet I was recently at), the attendance will be really hurt because of it. The belief is that mostly only sport jets and the type will attend with most of the scale jets staying home. I'll still go because all of my stuff flies off of grass quite well, even my scale bird.
Lavi, just curious, but will you be attending Florida Jets or Top Gun in 2011?
Cheers,
Beave
Who are you talking to? If me...my point is exactly what I wrote. If you really want to talk about scale and Top Gun...besides the U.S jets from the past 50 years...almost every other plane that attends in real life flew off of grass, dirt roads...what ever at one point or another including the Soviet Block jet fighters. Look at the 3W Super Show, Le Ferte ETC...many meets are held on grass. If you don't want to fly off of grass...stay home. Landing on grass surly can not be worse that watching an F-18 try to land on a 25 MPH 90 degree cross wind and lawn dart itself in the process trying to get down on the taxi way. Everything else will be fine.
As to Florida Jets, I feel (and having heard discussions amongst pilots at a meet I was recently at), the attendance will be really hurt because of it. The belief is that mostly only sport jets and the type will attend with most of the scale jets staying home. I'll still go because all of my stuff flies off of grass quite well, even my scale bird.
Lavi, just curious, but will you be attending Florida Jets or Top Gun in 2011?
Cheers,
Beave
I'm very well familiar with soviet block jets ......and only a handful of them were designed to operate from High quality dirt-roads ..... My comment was not whether I want to fly off grass or not ....In was speaking of the competitors workload that is intense enough without throwing another potential of hazard at them.....second I was aiming at the efect of judging models from their scale realism point of view....
I am planning to come to Florida jets as I always do, but seem to miss the opportunity every time since my last visit in 2004 .....