highhorse

My Feedback: (2)

Listen and watch again....the dude was told and could see fairly early that the Pitts was going to/did make it down OK. Then he commented on the near loss of life BEFORE he mentioned the loss of $$.

As a former show pilot and Pitts driver myself I can tell u that the view directly forward when there is a passenger is nill. I don't mean "degraded", I'm saying he's blind for 10 degrees either side of the nose. Also, as commented on earlier, the Bipe pilot was illegal to make that low pass close to people. You can only fly within 500' of them for the purpose of taking off or landing, and it's a stretch to say that the level flight "go-around" at hi speed, (with smoke no less) was done in the act of doing either.

I have not read the kid's posts which have some folks upset but based purely on what I see in the vid:

1) the Pitts driver is looking down the barrel of a certificate action by the feds
2) he knew there was an event in progress and was advised to go around
3) he interpreted "go around" to mean "make a high speed low pass down the runway with your smoke on in an airplane you can't see forward out of"
4) he very nearly killed himself and his passenger
5) he owes the kid 8k.

If this was a case of some guy with no radios just landing at this airport then It'd be a whole other deal. But that's not what's going on here, obviously.

Look guys, it's pretty freakin obvious. The bipe driver let his adrenaline get the better of his judgement and he did something really, really dumb. Been there, done it myself, and there is no way to desribe to you the freaking incredible rush that results . Anyone with a smoke equipped aerobat who claims he hasn't done the same is flat out m-f-ing lying about it. This guy essentially unbuttoned his pants for a quick bit of fun, but OOPSIE... they fell down around his ankles and he tripped right onto his face. With a video camera rolling, no less. The thing about these dumb stunts is that we (full scale aerobatic drivers) get away with them 99%+ of the time. But when it goes wrong you lose sleep over it for weeks, assuming you survived.

I feel bad for the bipe driver and for his wife who got the ever loving crap scared out of 'em and nearly died. There but for the grace of God, go I.

But based on what I can see in the vid and no first hand knowledge (which might very well be a critical gap), the overwhelming bulk of the fault lays right at the feet of the full-scale pilot and he owes the kid an airplane, which he should be able to afford easily after the feds pull his ticket and he sells what's left of his bipe.

As for the kid being pissed off, (given the context that no one died thereby reducing the sum of $8000 to a trivial matter) I don't blame him a bit.

SGT.SHAGGY

the same reason you asked why. BECAUSE HE WANTED TO....... really what is your deal, almost every post beave makes you can some how find a way to say something negative. You must be a really unhappy person.

Stobe777

My Feedback: (1)

Well, I just got back from the biggest air display in Finland this year, and we flew 2 jets and 2 big gas aerobatic models there in front of 20000 people. The show featured the Dutch F-16 lion team, for instance. We had no problems as the ATC was controlling the airspace as they were supposed to. Of course, we had a radio operator and a few people to look around as well. The 2700 x 45 m runway suited us well...

Last year, we had an airshow at a smaller airfield where a scheduled 3D model airplane was performing its show as planned. All of a sudden a 100% plane flew low between the pilot and model. It was totally his arrogance and mistake-he never got any clearance for the fly-by from the diasplay tower. Luckily there was no crash. I can not stress the importance of using aviation 2-way radios and spotters but in this case all happened so fast that there was no chance...the 100% aircraft flew behind some trees only to pop out suddenly on us. The pilot faced the aviation authorities who were totally on our side on this. The pilot even claimed that model flyers fly drunk! Oh well...

Everything can be organized...especially in rallies there are lots of people wanting to do low fly-by´s. I fly jet models myself in airshows and so far we´ve been doing well with the 100% planes and their pilots. But, also the 100 % pilots can make mistakes and especially when the rally is over and everybody rushes to fly home, I keep my models down and just listen to their tense voices on the radio...sometimes they are close to collide! When the most hastily are gone, back to model flying.

The full size aircraft are being crashed all the time, so why should we take the responsibility for that...and the sky doesn´t belong to anyone in particular especially in uncontrolled airspace.

TP.

j.duncker

My Feedback: (2)

I am going to let this one run although there is little direct JET linking other than the fact the the jets get flown at full size airfields fairly often.

Mods hat off now.

If the facts are as stated I see blame is about 75% on the Pitts pilot who was told to go around and 25% on the model flyer who needed a better spotter. A 3D model like that could and should have been able to get out of the way IF THE SPOTTER HAD BEEN ON THE BALL.

I am a independent sort of person and did not like being told that I had to have a spotter when flying jets in many locations but did realise the safety benefits esp. when airspace got busy.

basimpsn

My Feedback: (5)

The bipe pilot is at fault, who never saw the RC model plane in a hover. looking at the video the rc pilot did try to get out is way. If he was still hovering over the runway, the bipe would had hit dead on. I am just starting to learn hovering my self and its not easy to bailout from a hover without going up[X(] that could have been worst.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Playing the blame game is irrelevant to the accident. In the FAA's eyes...this is what happened: A full size plane with two people on board was hit by an R/C plane that was flying at an airport over the runway. That is all they will see and will rule as such. While arguments can be made about a low pass or what ever...it still does not really matter...because a full scale plane was hit by an R/C plane that was flying at an airport.

If we are lucky, they will not ban model flying at airports. Let's all hope it does not go that way.

Beave

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

All 3 used bad judgement! The bipe for not getting permission for the low pass, the airboss for not being in control and the rc pilot for not knowing what to do in an emergency... If you know that a full scale plane is coming by low, make a harrier landing!!!! Simple to do, at most lose a prop. Never pull up, stay on the deck!!!

Added: Even though this isn't good, it's probably the best scenario. Of course you could only harrier land a 3d plane. If it had been a jet I'm afraid that there might have been much more damage...

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Bas,

If you watch the video, the Bipe was over the grass the whole time...the Slick pulled up and in front of him. Had he stayed over the runway...there would have been no collision.

Beave

ira d

The full scale hit the model not the other way around. Also the model was there first the full scale
should not have came down the runway when it did.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Ira,

You are correct...the Bipe did indeed "hit" the R/C plane...because the R/C plane flew in front of the Bipe while it was over the grass. That being said, the FAA will see it differently. All they will see is that an R/C plane was flying at a full scale airport and hit a full scale plane with people on board.

We will see how this all plays out...

Beave

quist

My Feedback: (198)

In the eyes of the FAA, Full Scale always has the right of way.

It is a uncontrolled airport, no NOTAM. I think the people running the event are to blame.

After seeing this video for the last 4 days, I don't think that I would ever fly at a fullscale airport without knowing that there is a notam.

basimpsn

My Feedback: (5)

Hey beave your are right he was kinda doing a low flyby over the grass but unfortunately that where the rc pilot thought he was safe. But if you listen to 1:40 to 150 sounds like they know about this before stunt before it gone wrong?.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3GHqMObjcM

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

With regards to the FAA banning anything.. full scale planes crash and kill people all the time. So far as I know the FAA hasn't banned flying. There have been incidents of people being killed by RC aircraft (on happened at my field).. No FAA ban for that either.

So lets not jump on the regulatory bus just yet ok.

As far as the accident.. thats just what it was.. an accident. Things happen.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Full scale aircraft crashing of their own accord is one thing ; crashing because of a mid-air impact with a model aircraft at a full-scale airport would be quite another.

At my home field we fly from a taxiway that is parallel to, and about 1200 ft away from a full-scale runway at an 'uncontrolled' airport. Last year an RC pilot flew his model too far out and strayed into the airspace above the full-scale runway just as someone was on final. The s**t hit the fan and the club received a real nastygram (quite deservedly so). The communication from the FAA to the airport management (which we received a copy of) stated basically "we know you have a long-standing and good working relationship with the model aircraft club, however this is a facility for full-scale aircraft use and we do not suppport or condone model aircraft activity on site. We urge you strongly to take the necessary corrective actions, either by reviewing and enforcing restrictions on the model aircraft activities, or simply banning model activities from this site". We were VERY fortunate that the airport management elected to stick their necks out for us and give us another chance.

I also know of a very similar situation at another club in CA, where alleged intrusion of model aircraft into airspace above a full-scale runway resulted in all high-speed aircraft being banned from that club.

So - don't get complacent about the idea that just because full-scale aircraft crash all the time, the feds don't care about trying to reduce the chance of mid-airs by banning models at full-scale sites. It is a VERY real possibility. Regardless of who is at fault in this particular case, simply forcing separation of full-scale and models would reduce the chance of a recurrence.

Like Bevar, I sincerely hope it does not happen - but we should all be aware of the possibility and adjust our behaviour accordingly. If I'm flying when a full-scale aircraft makes a low pass over me, and my spotter fails to notice it - I will deliberately stuff the aircraft in a heartbeat if it means getting out of the way of the full-scale. If I'm out of pocket as a result - so be it... as far as I'm concerned, if I am unwilling to make that sacrifice when needed then I ought not to be flying from a location that increases the chance of interaction between models and full-scale. The price of me having the privilege to fly there, includes the willingness to plant tens of thousands of dollars into the dirt if push comes to shove.

Gordon

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

The important feature of that FAA Memo was that the airport was encouraged to take action and not the FAA.. As we all know the FAA was established to promote full scale aircraft use and development. Any thing that would interfere with that is a consideration for sure. But having spend 30+ years in the Federal Regulatory business bans are not a simple matter..

DelGatoGrande

My Feedback: (23)

That was not a proper "go around".

smoke speed and low flying?

They wanted to cut in and show off and they are lucky they are alive and didnt crash in the croud kiiling more people.

I bet they have been informed about the activity on the runway and

thats why they must pay the guy a new plane and burn there fly lisence.they dont deserve it.

rc flying or not...that was just too fast too low too close to people

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

The really sad part is the public perception of RC fliers. Taken from the article on the aviation website...

"The forum, like most of their ilk, ultimately degenerated into a series of accusations, insults and threats, as well as some truly amazing displays of aero-ignorance... though that particular discussion has since been closed by the forum moderators."

This speaks volumes about how the full scale pilots and the FAA view our activity.
It is an unfortunate accident and there is plenty of blame to go around from the spotter, to the FS pilot, to the RC pilot. No good will come of this.

turnnburn

My Feedback: (49)

I dont understand the title of this thread. There is no good or better time for something like this to occur.

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

I agree with You.
Joe

AndyAndrews

Although I agree with they say about RC forums, I don't think the author was talking about how scale pilots and the FAA view RC or the Jet community. This was a comment was specifically related to the activity of forums not the RC community in general.

AndyAndrews

I'm assuming that he made the title the way it is because right now the FAA is highly (more than ever) scrutinizing our hobby. No, there is no good time for something like this to happen but often events in life occour where timing is everything.

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

Why not? It's a stupid place to fly and in addition to banning flying at airports, I hope they ban the 3D pilot from hovering over the runway.
Finally, something might actually remove this annoying situation from the hobby. I can only hope. Cocky 3D guys ignore EVERYTHING around them, and fly in everyone's way. I never appreciated it, and I'm glad it's out in the open where a remedy can be initiated once and for all. It's long overdue. It's dangerous, stupid, and he's lucky no one was hurt. I hope the AMA gets a kick in the butt too, with their shallow viewpoint on many issues. More regulation is needed. I can't imagine they say it's OK to shoot at models with paint ball guns, potentially disabling the plane in the air.
Let FAA ban flying at airports, hovering over runways, and put AMA on their toes so they actually start doing something for the hobby than collect insurance premiums.

ira d

Having the right of way and having the right to unsafely enter air space are two different things
I would bet the FAA will not side with the FS on his choice of flying down the runway at low
level while the model was still there.

ira d

Gordon if its the same field in southern calif im thinking of all high speed models were not banned
just turbine powered ones. Also I think the turbine ban had more to do with inner club politics than
anything else at least IMO.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Wow, I'm no big fan of hovering, and there are guys who are too arrogant for anyone's good in all aspects of the hobby, for sure, but this is the dumbest thing I've seen on RCU in quite some time. The last thing we need is more regulation, by anyone. What we need is more common sense and courtesy by everyone. Bob

Personal attack removed.