$1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Ok you engineering geniuses. I will pay $1,000.00 cash to the first person who can find a way to make the COMP ARF A4 nose gear steer reliably and maintain it's scale appearance. This offer is reliant on being able to do this quickly. Like in the next two months. Moreover, the solution cannot be exceedingly heavy. See this thread for more info: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10225819/tm.htm

Any takers call email me: [email protected]

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Put a gyro on it.

Mike

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

I think they already did that about 7 times. S

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

OK... I don't feel like reading a build thread... so...

1) what's wrong with it?

2) What is it doing?

3) What's your thoughts on a fix?

I own a machine shop, and I make RC parts for a few shops, and, a few under my own label. I would be glad to give it a look over. My main focus are motorcycles... so I will be entering my slow time of the year very soon.

Since the gear comes with the model... I would rather make a retro-fix, rather than to make an entirely new nose gear. So... If you want to send me a nose gear... I'll see what I can do.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Andy's offering 2 grand on his other thread, I'd fix it over there! :D

Seriously, contact Peter Agnew from Intairco. Like David Gladwin says I know him
to be a guy who has to have things just right & if he's familiar with the retract
anyway he'd be my go-to guy. My opinion? A new leg with the pivot at the top at
the trunion & a dummy steering cylinder on the bottom. - John.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Ive got two sets that need fixing!! Im in!!
Scott

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Scott,

If you want to send me one, I'll work on a solution. Are you going to BITW? I have to stop in Dallas, so I'll be driving through Texas on my way to Cali.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Make the arm on the gear longer so it doesn't have to work so hard and can be more precise.

It looks very short.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

George, I'll be driving Scott's stuff and will be leaving from Dallas. Sent you a pm

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Now back to the regular scheduled thread. Sorry Andy

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

No worries Bob, Scott and I are in the same boat looking for a solution. I've got someone working on it right now. Lets see what comes out of it. Thanks for all of the PM's. If I can't get this thing sorted out I'm sure I'll be knocking.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

That won't work. The wheel is offset from the strut. Also, the strut has to be able to extend.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Andy,
have you considered replacing the pneumatic system with Hydraulic, Use a servo to drive an air cylinder, that has been converted to hydraulic, then run lines to cylinder on steering arm. Closed system void of all air. Still need the lines to the steering cylinder, but would give positive response. Just a thought.

Glenn (Scotty's friend)

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Hi guys

There is a guy in NZ with a 1:5 scale A4 with a fully hydralic nose gear set up. Not sure if it has flown yet but pics are attached. I can get you an email address if interested

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Hey Glenn,

The system is Hydraulic not pneumatic.

Andy

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

1-2.) the system leaks, doesn't move the nose gear properly, won't center, requires too much force to move and when it does it only moves 1/2 of the time. There is no way to bleed the air.
3. ) replace with closed system with a pump, cylinder block type system or improve on the cylinders provided. I need a system that won't leak causing air bubbles.

I guess my post drew some attention. Thanks for offering to help.

Andy

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Hi Andy,

I'm the guy in NZ that "jonty" is refering to above with the 1/5th A4 (Skymaster) AUW approx 35lbs.

It uses the Likai retracts and steering system and works smooth as silk. It is a "closed loop" hydraulic system with equal capacity rams, one mounted down at the steering point and another single ram (not twin like your ones) being driven by a JR 8511 servo. I believe both cyl need to be of equal size to get accurate, smooth easy steering.

There is no bleed point on these rams the secret is to submerge both chylinders and their respective fluid line nipples in a bath of hyd fluid (we use air tool lube oil) the rams are first purged of air independantly by exercising them back and forth, then each line is filled with fluid and purged all the while keeping the entire system submerged in the oil bath especially when connecting the purged oil lines back onto their respective nipples.

It's also important to ensure both rams are centred in relationship to each other when connecting the system to ensure equal and full steering in both directions.
Bit of a messy process but secret is keeping all inlet/outlet points submerged whilst carrying this out.

Do this.....and it works! hope it helps!

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

HI I am a new member to rcu. could you install a bleeder in the cylinders . maybe a presure tap from a two stroke muffler. to bleed all youwould need would be a small syringe
tosuck the fluid.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

From my comp arf hydraulic experience you have to devise a way to bleed them 100%. And I think a larger diameter master cylinder would help but I am not sure. Also I don't know why you need 2 cylinders, seems like you could connect it up to one master cylinder with the whole shooting match sealed. Who knows it is late!

EDIT: what I mean is connect one side of the steering ram to one side of the servo driven ram, and then the other side likewise. Not sure what a different diameter on the driven side would do but it is worth a try and that way you can't get air in if it leaks across the piston(s).

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Looking at the pictures ( bear in mind that I do not have the dimensions of the system ) it could be that a Firgelli L12-30 linear actuator would work in that application.
http://www.firgelli.com/Uploads/L12_datasheet.pdf
Essentially this actuator provides 30 mm of stroke at a speed of 23 mm/sec max, a max actuation force of around 10 N in practice or 2,2 lb-force in the 1:50 gearing option. The overall length of the actuator is 90 mm between the attachment points when retracted and 120 mm extended.
L12-30R series have an integrated controller and servo plug input. Compatible with standard Futaba 1-2 ms 5V command signal.

The 10 mm stroke actuator might be available for this application in the -P version. This actuator has a dimension of 70 mm retracted and 80 mm extended. The -P version means that it has to be controlled by the external LAC controller ( see below ). This would have to be confirmed by the factory.
Price 80 USD


If the L12 series is too big, you have the PQ12.
http://www.firgelli.com/Uploads/PQ12_datasheet.pdf
It has a length of 45 mm retracted and 65 mm extended. Stroke 20 mm but the max force at 23 mm/sec gearing is lower: about 5N or 1,1 Lb-force.
Also it is more "plastic-like" and might not sustain the working conditions for a long time.
Price 65 USD

These actuators are easy to drive with their LAC control board that has a 1-2 ms 5V standard Futaba RC input.
http://www.firgelli.com/Uploads/LAC_Datasheet.pdf
Price 40 USD


http://store.firgelli.com/category_s/1826.htm

Note that these products are also fairly nice for gear door actuation...

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

OK..... here is the fix. from a fluid power systems engineer (me)

only use 1 cylinder on the servo end - not two.
bleed both cylinders very well. submerge the bare cylinders in a bowl of oil, reach in and stroke them till no air comes out.
before you pull them from the oil bowl... retract one cylinder completely - and extend one cylinder completely.
leave the cylinders positioned this way. take great pains to not compress or extend them.
(you can use vegtable oil if you want.)
install the master and slave cylinders on the servo and gear leg.
bleed your lines the same way in a bowl, and fish them thru the leg, and hook them up.
VERY IMPORTANT... hook 1 line from the rod side of the master to the rod side of the slave. and from the blind side of the master to the blind side of the slave.

clean up oil , and enjoy.

when you now center the master, the slave will center, and so on.
Kirk

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

I'm liking Oli's train of thought. You need such fidelity of control on a nose gear to be very precice with it. I'm thinking about how little we move the nose gear steering on the high speed element of the take off / landing routine, and can't see the cylinder doing that.

Lance

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Yes, the Firgelli actuators have 0,1 mm of slack. Pretty much unbeatable.
The problem is to ensure that 1 lb-torque at approx. 15 mm/s is enough on a 20 mm travel.

I think that the only way to find out is to order a PQ12 and a L12-30 and try both solutions in-situ.

The problem with the hydraulic solution is the amount of elongation the system will take before the piston actually starts moving. This is mostly due to the elastic nature of the plastic tubing used. When the hydraulic fluid transmits the pressure from the command piston, the lines expand a bit and that creates some sort of hysteresis in the piston motion. Very difficult to control, especially considering the fact that the tubing elastic point is varying with the outside temperature...

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Oli,
The firgelli actuator was what i was thinking of late night last night as well. I think the problem with those will be the size, after seeing a photo of the slave cylinder mounted on the nose gear, it appears to have very little space between it and the strut.

For the price though, they are still worth a shot

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Yep Thomas.
I think it's worth spending a few bucks to give it a try.
These are also worth considering for your F-14 in specific applications like speedbrakes, some doors etc...

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

These won't work. The amount of torque needed is in excess of 10 lbs.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

fix the leak/replace the cylinders.
Submerge everything into a bucket of oil, and make sure EVERY tiny bubble (size of dust specs ) is out of the cylinders, and lines, even let it sit a few hours to make sure air is out.
Then assmeble it while submerged.

Use 2 servos, one for each cylinder if the single servo is not strong enough.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Wouldn't veg. oil gum up over time? I sell rest equipment and that stuff gets real sticky when used as a lube, like on screw adjustments on slicers.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

I'm going to try the bleeding methods you guys have posted (Thanks btw!). Here is a post on the A4 Skyhawk thread where I was about to buy a complete hydraulic pump and system. It's amazing what the scale truck and tractor modelers use for these systems:

-from the other thread:


I'm looking into some more sophisticated hydraulic solutions. IE, using a hydraulic pump and valve system to actuate the hydraulics instead of a servo. I have been doing research in the "Earth mover" RC group and found a bunch of info related to this. Here is a company that makes hydraulic retracts. I believe we can utilize this system to actuate our hydraulic stearing cylinder. I've found all kinds of different cylinders to. Here are the links:

http://morpower.net16.net/index.php?...tegory&path=59

http://www.robbe.de/zubehoer-ersatzt...aulik.html?p=1

http://www.gardentrucking.com/produc...esort=1&max=10

Electric cylinders:
http://www.cti-modellbau.de/index.php/cat/c32_.html

This one under Hydraulic (lower page):
http://www.leimbach-modellbau.de/

Well, this is a start. I had no idea how incredible and technical the RC truck and Construction gang was:

http://rctruckandconstruction.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Is it just te picture, or is the ball link not completly inline with the piston ?

if it is not 100% alinged, then it could be putting a slight side load on the piston rod , and that could cause a leak in the front o-ring.
Also, the cylinder on the leg has to rotate/pivot freely around as the wheel turns, agan so it gets as minimal sideload to the fron o-ring as possible.

I recenlty replaced those cylinder bearings and leaking actuators on a 737-300, so the system is quite similar to what you have.....sort of :)



Where are you getting leaks ?

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Looking at the pictures I can see where you would encounter difficulties. The travel on the cylinder that runs the gray line has to be less than the one that runs the black line since the ram displaces a significant amount of fluid. Unless the travels are pretty much just right, when you turn one way the system will cavitate and the wheel will be free to move some amount. Turning the other way would cause the system to bind. You might could attach one cylinder with a clevis and then use a stiff compression spring between the ram and servo arm to drive the other side, which would at least get rid of any cavitation or binding. The better answer would be to use the same cylinder on both ends.
Steven

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Bingo - another problem that this system has. I think that is one reason that you need larger cylinders on the drive (servo) side than on the actuator side - you need more volume change on the drive side to get the same pressure on the actuator side in spite of the expansion of the plastic tubing...

I also think that no matter how you do it, without a bleed fitting, you're never going to get 100% of the air out of the system, so you also need the larger drive cylinders to compensate for the compression of the (small) amount of air that remains in the system...

Bob

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

From my vague recollection of hydraulics during A&P school, you also have to take into count the reduced force on the side of the piston with the piston rod. So as long as the piston rods are the same diameter, you need to cross the lines going from the master to the slave.

Maybe it would be worthwhile in running a pair of small stainless lines down the nose strut and have the flexible lines are short as possible, and have the same thing up by the retract pivot point to the master cylinders. This will eliminate some of the tube swelling

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

How about adding a check valve to bleed the air out? Just like your brakes. Submerge one of the fittings with tubing into a jar of the fluid. Pump back and forth, "T" in a check valve and stopcock? Lt the air bubbles come out the "T" the check valve will not let air back in the system. You just need to find a needle valve with a nipple that can allow the fluid out. Maybe one of the Machinists can make such an item?

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

I used sewing machine oil (mineral oil I think) in my hydraulic setup on my SU-27 gear and it works great.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Well I think you meant force, if so, you are going to have a hard time getting that much force from that cylinder.

In my experience you can only get about 140 psi in these systems without leaking (maybe someone can get more I don't know) and Assuming the drive cylinder ram is 3/8 " diameter you getting about 5 pounds force at 140 PSI.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

individual brakes on the mains that go with the rudder, then a small spring to hold the nose wheel straight.

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Hi,

No experiance with a Carf A-4 however some how some way you will need to construct a bleed valve and possibly pressurized injection of the fluid (5-7psi) all while moving the cylinders. No way will submerging under oil get the air out...or at least not all of it. Get the correct size cylinders and ALL the air out and it should work. Good luck to you and I hope you get it resolved.

Take care

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

Where's B-1 Bob's dad when You need him...

RE: $1,000.00 bounty offered to fix COMP ARF A4 steering
 

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