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Me 262 starter motor
I know that this is full size but you may find it interesting.
All German WW2 turbine engines were started by the very small compact Riedel starter, a 2 stroke air-cooled twin cylinder engine sited in the bullet fairing of the intake of the jet. They made around 8000 of these little engines and they often ended up in museums and go carts. The small petrol engine was started by either using the pull handle or by the 24v electric starter. This meant that the plane did not need a service vehicle to start the engine. The little engine uses case pressure to case pressure to push a piston backwards sending the dog clutch to engage with the front of the turbine shaft. This is an amazing little engine and has many rolling surfaces with roller bearings. The electric starter motor for example has a simple ball race at the front but at the back there is small roller bearings and a very small epicyclic gearbox. The starter gear grabs onto the shaft by means of a one way sprag clutch. The flywheel has balls in galleries that are thrown out by centrifugal force and they exert force on the wet clutch to engage the rear gearbox which is also epicyclic. Over a year ago now I managed to find a Me 262 starter motor from a motor bike dealer in the Netherlands. However it had many parts missing and it became obvious that it had been dropped early in its life and damaged and then robbed of parts. I spent many hours making the missing ignition system , the carburettor and the piston and dog clutch. I now have it all screwed together and have it running for the first time. The one good thing was the engine had hardly been run at all. There was no sign of wear in the bore of the one cylinder I took out. The bad part is that there is very high compression and it is quite a job to turn it over! I know nothing about 2 strokes and have learned a lot. Fortunately there is a Bernd Sobek who is the world expert in them and has several running who has helped me . Roger Emms also helped me with 2 stroke information and assist in getting it started. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGUqV0dl9gA John |
John
Excellent project involving a real piece of history Dave |
5 Attachment(s)
Thanks Dave
I really enjoyed this one. As finished and as received http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2159728http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2159727 The carburettor in pieces as machined and assembled http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2159729http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2159730 The pressure piston assemble and dog clutch http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2159731 |
Fantastic project John, congratulations on getting it running. Very interesting mechanical design.
I went hunting on Youtube and found this video showing the original pull starter had quite the kick too! https://youtu.be/oBH0ULVmsow?t=6m23s |
That is extremely cool!
Now you just need a Jumo 004 to bolt it to. :D |
Hi John,
Very interesting project, thanks for posting Alistair |
Originally Posted by Quandry
(Post 12207448)
Fantastic project John, congratulations on getting it running. Very interesting mechanical design.
I went hunting on Youtube and found this video showing the original pull starter had quite the kick too! B https://youtu.be/oBH0ULVmsow?t=6m23s John |
Originally Posted by Kevin_W
(Post 12207452)
That is extremely cool!
Now you just need a Jumo 004 to bolt it to. :D John |
Thanks for posting that, it was cool, and I learned something too,,,,
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Originally Posted by Jgwright
(Post 12207494)
interesting bit of film. The engine shown was much more free than mine. This appears to confirm that mine did very little running. It sure gives you a workout!
John ne |
I wonder if the compression is so high because it ran on jet fuel not gasoline...
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I've always wondered about these engines. What is the displacement?
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Originally Posted by Jgwright
(Post 12207494)
interesting bit of film. The engine shown was much more free than mine. This appears to confirm that mine did very little running. It sure gives you a workout!
John I was lucky enough to visit the factory in Ft Worth where they were (initially) building the replica ME-262's. They had several fuselages in various stages of completion, and several sets of wings still in the jigs. The engine mounts were the most interesting thing though. The wanted to keep the mounts as close to stock as possible, but the little GE turbofans they were using to power them are probably 1/4 the size of the original Jumo engines. Their solution was to cast large aluminum cases with the outer dimensions (and mounting points) of the Jumo 004, they were cast in two pieces like a clam shell, and bolted together around the GE engine. It had the added benefit of helping keep the CG manageable. They also built replica cannons in the nose that were similar weight to the originals. It was a very interesting visit. Less than I year after my visit the project ran out of money and was shut down for quite a while. It eventually was moved to Washington state, and I think they completed four flyable airplanes. I think I have some pictures scanned into photobucket. I will look for them later and post if I can find them. |
Originally Posted by DaveHickey
(Post 12207675)
I wonder if the compression is so high because it ran on jet fuel not gasoline...
John |
Originally Posted by causeitflies
(Post 12207688)
I've always wondered about these engines. What is the displacement?
John |
Originally Posted by Kevin_W
(Post 12207694)
John,
I was lucky enough to visit the factory in Ft Worth where they were (initially) building the replica ME-262's. They had several fuselages in various stages of completion, and several sets of wings still in the jigs. The engine mounts were the most interesting thing though. The wanted to keep the mounts as close to stock as possible, but the little GE turbofans they were using to power them are probably 1/4 the size of the original Jumo engines. Their solution was to cast large aluminum cases with the outer dimensions (and mounting points) of the Jumo 004, they were cast in two pieces like a clam shell, and bolted together around the GE engine. It had the added benefit of helping keep the CG manageable. They also built replica cannons in the nose that were similar weight to the originals. It was a very interesting visit. Less than I year after my visit the project ran out of money and was shut down for quite a while. It eventually was moved to Washington state, and I think they completed four flyable airplanes. I think I have some pictures scanned into photobucket. I will look for them later and post if I can find them. This was a great project, and I followed progress over the years with its ups and downs. One of these days I hope I may have the chance to see the one sold to Germany at a flying display. John |
Very cool... in this video at 16:00 shows this engine in the original 262 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nNdDkyiANo |
Superb achievement, John, well done, would love to see it sometime !!
Fuel situation : The 004B-1 produced a thrust of 2,000 lbf (8.90 kN) and ran primarily on diesel fuel. Gasoline was used for the two-stroke starter motor and for starting the turbojet. A combination of gasoline and diesel was used after starting and then to all diesel fuel.[SUP]6[/SUP] However, Eric Brown records it also ran on 87 Oct petrol with 5 % oil mixed in. David. |
That's an excellent piece of work John, and lots of interesting history. I love the idea of pull-starting a jet engine. Something to look for next time I am at a museum that has a 262, see if it has the ring pull at the front of the cone.
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Originally Posted by HarryC
(Post 12207772)
That's an excellent piece of work John, and lots of interesting history. I love the idea of pull-starting a jet engine. Something to look for next time I am at a museum that has a 262, see if it has the ring pull at the front of the cone.
The starter was also used for the He162 to start the BMW turbine. The pull starter makes a lot of sense because it was always possible that it would fail to start on the electric starter. Robert Riedel the designer even thought of building in a slip clutch on the Electric motor to avoid it being overloaded, but this has to be correctly set up. The pilot could start the engine from the cockpit using the electric starter. I did read one report when 3 planes were scrambled and only one was able to get the engines started. John |
Really neat!!! Wonder what model it would fly? Great job John!!!!
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Originally Posted by dw_crash
(Post 12207880)
Really neat!!! Wonder what model it would fly? Great job John!!!!
Interesting question. I found a while ago that Ken Wallis, who has only recently died, adapted one to power a Slingsby Petrel glider and it seems that it made 10 flights or so. Here is a photo of it mounted on the glider. Ken Wallis was the guy who was famous for autogyros and made the Little Nellie for the James Bond film. The flights were made in 1949. http://www.scalesoaring.co.uk/VINTAG.../Powered_2.png There was also also a glider in Poland powered by a 4 cylinder engine made from 2 Riedel starter engines joined together. John John |
Here are the pics from my visit to the 262 project.
This was in 1997 so didn't have a digital camera. These are all scanned from film prints, and the lighting was very poor, so please forgive the quality. http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262001.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262002.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262003.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262004.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262005.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262006.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262007.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262008.jpg |
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262018.jpg
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262019.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262020.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262021.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262022.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262023.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262024.jpg http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../ME-262025.jpg |
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