Propane-less starts
 

Does anyone have any first hand experience on the propane-less start motors? I have heard that they should be, or are available from various vendors and I would be interested in any reports on their success. I am ready to plunk down a small fortune on a motor and I would love to hear about these.

It seems like buying a jet motor is like buying a computer... The technology is a bullet train and you gotta just jump in.

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Steve,

Years ago I owned a Turbomin engine it was Kerosene start and it was never an easy affair to get it started.

I am curious why you would want to go with a propane-less start engine anyway? I assume you have seen the Jetcat engines, they are about the most reliable in terms of starting and running. JetCat had autostart long before it was "the way" to start an engine. Engine start is as simple as putting your throttle trim to high and advancing the throttle. Service here in the US is top notch when you need that. It is also the predominant engine that you will see at the events around the country as well.

RE: Propane-less starts
 

I have a BMT 160 and its awesome!!! Engine starts on Kerosene perfect every time. People are going to say they are problematic because the injector will get clogged. Thats BS and if it did ever get clogged its removable in a few seconds. The engines are low in production and hard to find, but BMT is supposed to be nearing a large production of the engines. Im sure kerostart will one day be a standard feature on all turbines. The other benefit would be less installation as far as a propane tank, etc and the solenoids are under the front cover. I couldnt be more happy with my Jetcats, but this is also a great motor.
Jetcat support is also second to none.
Scott

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Actually I am leaning toward the JetCat but I hear that AMT now has propane-less start as well as some other desirable features. I currently have an order in for the JetCat 160 along with the rest of the northern hemisphere, but who knows when that will be filled? I have seen the 120's and how well they perform but I would love to hear from this forum about the other motors.

RE: Propane-less starts
 

I love my P-120, it has been a jewel. But the other big advantage to kero start is that the engine is receiving lubrication right from the get go. With propane start it isn't until the kero ramp starts that lubrication begins. And a small point maybe, but you don't have to buy that ridiculously expensive and hard to find Powermax.

I had some conversation with BMT in the past, and I was impressed with his overall knowledge. It would be nice to see them produced in greater quantities, as I'm sure they would be a high quality alternative. But DavidR's comment about JetCat USA service is spot on. They are the best I have seen.

RE: Propane-less starts
 

I remember when the talk about electric start was that it was not necessary and that air start was working just fine Thank you very much. I agree that Kerostart will no doubt dominate once it is figured out.

I have heard that Kerostart can be sensative to temperature and other things. Has that been your experience?

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Kerosene start has been figured out!!
The start is very quick and smooth. its awesome to see it start.
It is not sensitive to temp, but i have not ran it under extreme climate conditions. I live in TX so its usually betwwen 50 and 100 when i fly.
This motor has not had any problems and is very user friendly.
Scott

RE: P160
 

quote-Original(I currently have an order in for the JetCat 160 along with the rest of the northern hemisphere, but who knows when that will be filled?)
Don't want to sound like a commercial, but I do have a NIB P160, freshly updated, for sale in the classifieds under engines heading, for 500 bucks less than current list price. Thanks-Mike Oberst

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi,

I will just offer a few comments for general info.
I think when Liquid fuel start becomes more widespread, it will be very popular. Simplicity is always a plus. Lubrication to the bearings is a pretty nice plus.
I have been flying several Sophia 850's for abou 4-5 years now (they are not marketed any more). This engine does not require propane or butane to start. It starts on liquid fuel which is a mix of about 70% kero and 30% coleman (white gas). It uses a separate computer drive oil pump that make sure the bearings are very well lubricated at startup, and shut down.
The starts are fine, and the temps stay low. It does not have the tendency to get 'gas soaked' on missed starts that propane does. I have done very carefree handling with the engine, and have never done damage to a tailpipe, so it seems easier on those parts. The engine does not have a factory electric starter, but we have used one a lot, and it works well.

All of that said, I also have a Jetcat P-120 which has been awesome, so until new electric/kero start engines become more popular/proven, that is what I would reccomend. The BMT sounds interesting.

Regards,
David

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi Steve,
Kero start is much less sensitive to temp variations than Propane. Probably 100 times less. Gas flow from any gas cylinder will vary wildly with temperature due to changes in cylinder temperature. You also dont ever get the big bang.....[X(]
Cheers
Andre Baird
MD BMT

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi Andre,

One question. Tony stated that the lubrication started right away. Do you have 1 or 2 fuel circuits in the BMT? If you have primary circuit running through a fuel atomizer, and a secondary circuit as the rest of the manufacturers do, is the lubrication still driven by the main circuit and thus not immediately present during startup?

Yes, I'm affiliated with another manufacturer, although in a lower thrust range, and no I'm not trying to pop a bubble here. Just curious how the technology works...;)

Thanks,
Kelly W
North American
PST-Jets Tech Support

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi Kelly,
It is in fact possible to lube the bearings under software control prior to a start, but only when the bearings appear to be too dry. The GSU menu has a routine to do this and also monitor the change in RPM before/after the lube is injected. It also gives you the rundown time between 8K and 2K RPM as a benchmark. The software to manage the startup sequence is 80% of the code which is about 8 times more than the entire code of most controlers. As to exactly how it works our reply is always "very well":D
Cheers
Andre

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Tony while this may be true I have a P-120 that has aorund 400 flights on it. Very few missed starts and the bearings were checked at around 260 flights and were in perfect shape. It does not seem to be an issue, at least not in my limited experience.


BMT,

You stated that the BMT engines only provide lubrication if the beargins appear to be to dry. I am assuming that you are spinning the engine and monitoring RPM to calculate that. If so does this not put the engine into a situation where the bearings could potentially be lacking in lubrication just like all the rest? Not a bash just curious.

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi David,
No bash taken.:) did not quite make the picture clear enough. The GSU allows for the operator to do a "manual" lube without reverting to some other method. During startup the ability of the starter to spin the engine vs voltage drop combined with the rundown time will give an error with a context sensitive help promp i.e. "Rundown error - lube bearings". At any rate, without giving too much away, the bearings get lube 1-3 seconds after ignition and at much lower RPM. Also the all kero combustion is much cooler than propane so the bearing stress is obviously less.
Having said all of this, our experience have been that other factors contribute more to bearing life than the scenario described above. One of which is the ability of the BMT pump PID algorithm to control the pump ramp and flowrate accurately enough so kero can be introduced at much lower RPM than with the normal PWM controlled pumps, Kero or gas start. Where pump control does not allow for this, many starts get extended on gas to give the pump a chance to spool the engine at a more manageble (higher, hotter) RPM. Otherwise flamed starts is the result when inexperienced operators set parameters when pump params change and PWM settings need adjusting. The BMT system has no such settings internally at all, only absolute fuel delivery volume. Exactly how does it work? Very well...
Cheers
Andre
MD BMT

RE: Propane-less starts
 

So is it true Andre that a large production run is upcoming? What is the current availability of the BMT engine and where can I find more information?

Jeff

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Mickey's carries the BMT: http://www.a1hobby.com/turbine.html and http://www.a1hobby.com/bmtpics.html

Andre also has detailed info here www.bairdtech.com/bmt, including the manual which I am about to start digesting (I'm seriously thinking about a BMT 120 KS for my upcoming Hawker Hunter).

Gordon

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Something that hasnt been mentioned....
The Price!!
The most advanced turbine on the market for under 3K.
I hate to really hype, because the production has been limited. Everyone that has seen it has been very impressed, but the wait has been discouraging. I have asked for another engine and will patiently wait.
Scott

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi Jeff,
I have recently reinvested in a new CNC lathe to compliment our 4 axis CNC mill. Unfortunately an entire batch of components manufactured since February 2003 has been stolen in a recent burglary. My staff is currently working 14 hour days to catch up on the backlog. We now keep all parts in a full blown walk in safe...
The answer to your question is that we should be able to ship early December. The engines to be shipped is to the 160KS spec with 34 lbs thrust.
Scott, you are at the top of the list Im sure with Mickey... Tell Joey I said Hi, hope you guys are having a good time. Did you ever find your Bobcat?
Cheers
Andre Baird

RE: Propane-less starts
 

The Baird KS 120 was fully reviewed in RCJI April/May 2003. The engine produced a virtuoso performance on test and the electronics were highly impresive.

Propane ignition will become a thing of the past as I know that other manufacturers are working on it, at least one has it up and running . Take a bow Andre.

If I am allowed to say so, the next RCJI has a review of the electric autostart AMT NL Pegasus HP, another highly impressive engine which produced an utterly superb performance on test and is about to fly in my F4.

David Gladwin

RE: Propane-less starts
 

BMT,
when will motors be in the US?

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Jetsetter,
We hope to ship the next batch early December. Contact Mickey at A1-Hobby to get you on the list.
David,
The review was first class thanx, I always read GASFLOW first. Thanks for doing the job that you do. I have always found your comments to be fair at all times.
And yes, others will follow with kero start which is probably why a few are trying to reverse engineer the BMT KS and at least one saying the KS does not exist....:D
Andre
MD BMT

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Thanks for the info Andre. I saw the 120KS on your site for about $2900.00 USD. What is the current cost of the 160KS?

Jeff

RE: Propane-less starts
 

G'day Andre,

I just finished going quickly through the manual for the 120 KS. First I must say that the manual seems to be extremely well done. Compared to the other 3 brands of turbine engines that I have owned thusfar, yours seems more user-friendly - it's both easier to just sit down and read cover-to-cover, and easier to find specific topics. (No bash meant against any other brand BTW). The detailed "fault vs remedy" chart also seems well done, and from what I can tell so far, the user interface on the GSU is also more intuitive than I am used to. Good job !

I have a few questions, if I may...

1) The shutdown procedure outlined in the manual indicates that connecting the GSU is optional, but the startup section makes no such mention. Does this mean that the GSU absolutely must be connected for the start ?

2) The built-in charge system intrigues me, yet I'm not clear on how it works. You can apparently charge the ECU battery by connecting an external 12v supply to the GSU, and the GSU to the TCU. The RX battery can apparently also be charged in the same way... but how ? If the GSU is plugged into the TCU, and there is a throttle channel connection from the GSU to the RX, that still doesn't allow charging of the RX battery unless the RX battery switch is "on" .. what am I missing ? (i.e what is the connection path from the GSU to the RX battery ?)

3) Also re battery charging - does the system allow both TCu and RX batteries to be charged simultaneously, or just one and then the other ? If the latter, is it a manual switch-over, or can it charge the TCU battery and then switch over automatically to do the RX battery once the TCU battery is done ?

4) For RX battery charging, there was a mention that the charge rate must be selected. Does this mean that it's a constant-current charge, or is this a max rate, or wot ? Also, is this value entered once and stored in non-volatile memory so that it need not be entered again for the same system, or must the value be selected again each time ?

Appologies if the above is already detailed in the manual and I just missed it.

Gordon

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Hi Gordon,
Thanx for the positive coments.
Your questions.

1> Startup can be done via the Aux channel or by using the throttle sequence command. The latter basically requires a 0 - 75% throttle move 4 times in a row. The GSU may or may not be connected.

2> The RX is charged via a "LED Adapter PCB" that routes the GSU cable to the charge lead of your regular RX Switch Charge lead, plugged into the adapter PCB. You select the mode by plugging into TCU or RX-Charge Input ( a seperate circuit altogether). In fact any nicad from 1 - 7 cells can be either fast (peak detect) or slow charged at various rates. The GSU is an independent charging device. The TCU handles its own charging sequence by sending commands to the GSU.

3> As above you have to unplug the GSU cable from the one input to the RX input RJ46. So you can charge only one at a time.

4> The GSU charger can slow charge at 100, 200, or 300mA. A "custom" rate up to 1A can be selected and is saved in non-volatile memory. Fast charge can similarly be selected for 1A, 2A or 3A.

Another benefit of the GSU charging circuit is that we can "BOOST" the ECU pack during starts to help along the pack under "cold crank" conditions.
As you may have noticed we have tried to max the value added with many software features that makes operating the KS a lot easier.
Cheers
Andre

RE: Propane-less starts
 

Andre,
I too downloaded your manual and read through it a couple of times and it is really easy to follow and the motor seems rather simple to setup and operate. The only thing that struck me as odd is that you say that the duralite batteries can not be used for this motor due to the high loads put on the motor at start. I currently use the duralite (Li-Ion) on my RAM 1000R which is the first version of the remote start motor. In other words the starter motor does not ramp up like the X version or the Jetcat it is either on at full power or off. This draws alot of amperage out of the pack but the pack is able to handle the job of starting the motor and capable of supporting as many as 9 full autostarts. Forgive me if I am rambling on but I just want to understand why the duralites can't be used.

Patrick.