JPO Statement
 

www.jetpilots.org Check the front page.

RE: JPO Statement
 

I see it says more pilot requirements.
Any idea on how much more requirements?

How many new rules will there be?

RE: JPO Statement
 

David:

Good info.

It is hopefull that common sense used by all involved at the AMA should win the day.

We shall see.

Brg.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Being a private pilot, former military combat aircrewman, and long time model pilot, I have absolutely no problem with flight safety and a program of qualifying pilots who operate those aircraft, being models or full scale. However, regulations without a real training program to qualify the corps of aviators is restrictive. I will reserve further comment until I get to read the document in full.

Bill Adkins
AMA L6243

RE: JPO Statement
 

more regs, then more regs,
why don't we have the free flighter write the rules for turbine, turbine wavier guys write the rules for control line,and so forth.
Ohh wait that's pretty much whats happing already.

but a Positive point, higher qualifications mean less members trying to join the jet set.

Ohh well.

RE: JPO Statement
 

It seems that lately everything is being regulated more and more these days, not just RC Jets. There are fees and permits being imposed on anything you do ... I cant even wash my car without gettin a qualification permit from my local town hall .... Freedom ?? Fredom of what ? Im just sick of all this crap .... More and more im thinking of leaving the AMA alltogether and just flying on my own ... seems like internal AMA politics are even more idiotic then all the old farts who argue at the flying field all day, but never even fly ..


Wojtek

RE: JPO Statement
 

amen bro I hear ya.

If what I read about pilots having to re-certify every year is true, then I think thats going to be a major issue....if it's true.

Right now I'm in a big hassel just to get a waiver because I don't have a plane to qualify with. I sold all my ducted fans years ago when I took a brake from the hobby. So the ducted fan I have access to now is no where near 150mph and does not have flaps. The plane I have that does 150 doesn't have retracts or flaps. The plane I have with flaps probably doesn't even do 80mph.
So what to do?

RE: JPO Statement
 

WOW!!!

Maybe this will help...

RE: JPO Statement
 

Shok,
Although you would need to check with the TCD that will be doing your check ride, it is possible to perform your test with multiple aircraft. One to assess your ability to handle a complex aircraft (flaps, gear etc...) and one to assess your ability to handle the speed.
Todd

RE: JPO Statement
 

Thanks Todd, I will get with them and see what I can work out.

I'm lucky enough to have 3 cd's within 50 miles of me.
What do the guys do that have none near them?

RE: JPO Statement
 

You say you are in a big hassle but what has the Turbine CD that you are going to get to do your check rides have to say? Also included in the new regulations is several different ways to get your waiver including defining the airframe with whcih to accomplish this.

This is exactly the kind of speculation that adds complications to the whole process. Do you not think that these guys that worked so hard on these new rules took this sort of thing into consideration? The intent of the new rules is to make it less complicated to obtain the waiver, make the rules easier to enforce, reduce the restrictions on the airplane, and insure that at least a minimum level of competency is being maintained by the pilot.

RE: JPO Statement
 

The one I talked to so far confirms the need for the 150mph plane with at least retracts.


<<<<
Also included in the new regulations is several different ways to get your waiver including defining the airframe with whcih to accomplish this.
>>>>

Well then why doesn't someone spit it out so there is no speculation

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,
What exactly was wrong with the rules the way they were.I just got my waiver,after sitting on the fence for a while for a few reasons.One of the major ones is a somewhat elitist attitude from some people in this segment of the hobby.Increasing restrictions becomes burdensome,and detracts from the pleasure of this HOBBY! The paradox is that you can't legislate or impose common sense on a person that is lacking it.If you think I'm a ranting loose cannon,I'm not.I have over 12000 hrs flying,and am current on the A-320 at NWA.I have been flying R/C for 28 yrs,and still enjoy this HOBBY.I take enough checkrides,and have enough restrictions at work to keep me "legislated".I just bought 2 turbines,and have a plane on order,and have been really excited about doing this,but I'm concerned that it will be restricted to death,to the point of extracting too much of the pleasure.Did something happen to prompt "new rules"?My major heartburn comes with having to requal every year if that is true.I was lucky enough to have a very helpful TCD close by(Thanks Kerry!!),but I'm not sure requal issues won't be to burdensome.Then,what's to stop them from making it worse in the future at whim.The worst part is that these new rules are pending without a chance for us to comment on them.Even the mighty FAA has a period for comment by issuing a "Notice of proposed rule making"period for affected parties to comment.The silence is deafening.[:'(]
Erik

RE: JPO Statement
 

I do agree with Erik. This is a Hobby. It is not a burden. Safety comes First in anything but can you imagine if you had to take the driver's licence qualification every year. You would agree that driving is far more dangerouse then flying. People get into accidents all the time and there are according rules that apply to reckless driving and other violations, even suspention of the licence caused by severe issues. We should be more practical then this. It is a hobby, people spend time, money and love into it and nobody wants any more barriers than exist.

I do not think it is fair to keep all the people in the dark who do support AMA, JPO and others with their membership fees regarding regulations that might affect our decision to even become a member of the organization next year.
:eek:

RE: JPO Statement
 

I see your points fully, I was not inolved with the rules making other than the fact that I am also a JPO member and am an officer through managing the website. Unfortunatley as with everything else in life there have to be restrictions. I'm not as crazy about some of the changes as well. The major problem here is that we have a tyrant in office at AMA headquarters that is trying to railroad the executive council into not just doing away with a less restrictive and more manageable set of rules but he is actually attempting to INCREASE the restrictions on us by reducing the max thrust that we have now, and mandating that every airplane have a speedlimiter installed among other issues. You are exactly right when you say this is a hobby and it is for our relaxation but I guarantee that if Dave Brown gets his way turbine flying as you know it right now.

As far as keeping people in the dark goes, if you are a JPO member you have not been in the dark every issue of Contrails this year has had commentary about the new regulations, including requests for input. JPO is not the one keeping you in the dark on the new regulations Steven Ellzey was point blank told by the AMA NOT to post the regulations. There are several people at the AMA that have become very deeply involved and supportive of this committee that proposed the rules and JPO does not want to destroy the long term relationship. Dave Brown called this "meeting" as an emergency meeting based upon "risk management". When this proposal was brooguth before the executive council the AMA's attorneys were present as well as the AMA insurance people and ALL of them supported it and claimed that it would be defendable if it ever were a court room type situation. So why all of the sudden do we have to have risk management?

Lastly... I have known Steven Ellzey for several years now, he is a good friend and an active jet modeller. He is taking a lot of heat for this and is taking this personally. Anyone that knows Steven knows he is a very methodical and analytical individual he does not act on a whim and certainly puts a whole lot of thought into every one of his actions, especially the ones affecting others. I for one appreciate the fact that he has been working so hard for the jet community. I fully support him as do many other people.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Erik

What do mean when you say that you were not given a chance to comment on the new rule proposals mandated by the AMA. In the past issues of the Contrails (JPO Newsletter) the president has asked, pleaded for input on drawing up the new proposals. You are a member, aren't you?

I hear a lot of the same thing that you are mentioning hear and most of the people that are commenting here are not even JPO members. Without the JPO, Dave Brown would get his way and we all would still be flying DF's.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Few customer of my having the same problem getting the waiver. Even their are dawn good pilots. To get the ducted fan go over 150mph cost around $3000 to built one. Not to mention all kind of problem with ducted fan engine.
Why buddy box system can't be use for turbine training?
Let said the guys buy a trainer turbine jet. He ask for good turbine pilot train him on buddy box system. Than he go for CD to sign him off.
This is more real turbine training. I don't think is safe for the guys got their waiver and never had any stick time with the turbine. The change of them screwing up is high at the first couple flight.
I see good pilots can't even land turbine jet. Due to not use to throttle lack.
If he has some real turbine flight training. I don;t think he have a problem landing it.

Just my though.
Tam

RE: JPO Statement
 

Look at the start of this process, don lowe went out and requested input, part of the "team" was indeed JPO driven, the other part was hand selected by don lowe. people love to bash the JPO when they have no real basis to do so. as stated earlier, the three contrails I recieved this year all mentioned this process requesting input. hardly the secret or vaccum mentioned. imho you could not have a better person than steve on your side. his career deals with these things, and the balanced view he has brings tremendous levity to the table. he has been event cd, participated in numerous events, and does understand the pita issues with the current rule set. Until the ama comes forward with the final set, I'd reserve judgement. even then keep in mind that what is proposed to the ama hardly ever comes out the same after the safety and executive committee chews on it for a while.

tam, I believe buddy box training is part of what was proposed, again though, what was proposed may not be what comes out as rules.

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,

Agree on all parts with you. My point was more widespread and not pointed to JPO.

We want this hobby to exist because we love it and any organization that will not be supportive of it will not be part of my checkbook!!!

Rob

RE: JPO Statement
 

tam, I believe buddy box training is part of what was proposed, again though, what was proposed may not be what comes out as rules.
[/quote]


I hope this coming soon.

I live Ca. You are know the state got alot rules for the government to make money on us.
One of the latest is the car registration fee. We had to pay more for our registration fee just because the state over spent the money their has. We paying for the state mistake.
Now is become change reaction. Most of the cars dealer is in financial crisis. There can't sell that many cars to kept their door open.
Myself plan to buy a new mini van for my wife. But that plan got hold back due to the registration fee we had to paid.

So this hobby industries is in the same way. More rule and regualation. Putting alot hard working small business out of business due to lost interest of the market.
So rules got to be balance. JPO should purpose rules are simple enough for new pilots to join and still safe for the jet community.

Tam

RE: JPO Statement
 

So Tam.... being a buisness owner that supports the jet community are YOU a JPO member? Step up to the plate buddy!

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,
I'm not a JPO member.
But I do give 1000 of dollars aways each year and my time to support jet community.
That is worthed more than join JPO.
Tam

RE: JPO Statement
 

I know I am probably going to get crucified for the following comments but here goes.

How and why did the JPO become the sole voice for every turbine pilot in the AMA. Whenever there are rules changed proposed/made you don't hear about it unless you are a JPO member or after the fact. If I am wrong correct me now, but from what I read in this post earlier the proposed changes went out in the JPO Contrails newsletter. Was it ever mentioned anywhere else? I pay my money to the AMA just like everyone else so why don't I get a chance to read about the proposed changes, what is the secrecy behind it? Why is it going to get people in trouble and/or nervous if it gets out to the general public. This is the same type of deal where Bob Violett sent the letter into the AMA and the JPO to get the tiered waiver system instituted. The information leaked out and there was nothing less than a s&%t storm on RCU when everyone found out and I don't think it was because of what was in the letter mainly but how it was done, behind a cloak of secrecy.

I think the JPO has good intentions and I applaude those who take the time to deal with these issues but at least let your fellow jet fliers know what is going on JPO member or NOT, the web is a wonderful tool to reach millions of people at once.

I want to make this next point crystal clear. I am not attacking anyone in particular, just the way some things in this hobby are done.


Thanks for listening.

Patrick

RE: JPO Statement
 

Tam,

How can you complain about what JPO does when you don't support them with a small $25 membership. JPO is the ONLY SIG supporting the jet community.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Patrick,

Why don't you support the orginization that supports jets? What do you think the purpose of a SIG should be? Why do you think that it is important for JPO to ask your opinion when you don't support JPO?

JPO is a unified voice, by choosing NOT to be a JPO member you choose to have an independent voice. FAct is the AMA DID approach the JPO to form this committee.

RE: JPO Statement
 

I am a former JPO member, not a current member basically because I am just coming around to restarting back into jets after a long break.

I was thinking about re-joining, but really I don't know if I will yet.
When I think back, I couldn't really think of any reason why I was a member before, just really because a few jet friends said I should join so I did.

Like the post above, I don't want to start a s*** storm, but really want to know why I should join. Not being an ass at all, just want to know why we should and I will rejoin.

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,
I will say this, I WAS a JPO member when the incident with BV and proposed changes were submitted to the AMA and JPO upper members. At that time as a JPO member I was not told or sent a copy of the letter until I found out about it on RCU and then had to ask for a copy of it. As a member of an organization that is supposed to represent the individuals who pay to be a member I found that to be completely unacceptable. If I give an organization my support (monetarily or physical) that is supposed to be representing my interests I want as much information sent to me as soon as possible so that I can make an informed decision and make that decision heard. That one incident was enough to make me question why I was a member of the JPO and I did not renew my membership the next year. If you have changed that policy then I applaude you for it, but that one major incident really left a bad taste in my mouth and it was enough.

Also, let me say this how hard would it be to throw a simple survey up on a website for all the jetpilots to go to so you could get their opinions. You don't have to take emails from everyone but do a in depth survey of the issues to see what everyone, not just the JPO members, think about these changes. I would be more than happy to help in that aspect and it would not take up alot of space on your or any other webserver and it would give you hard numbers of everyone concerned and not just a select few.

Patrick.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Patrick, my .02 is that none of us have to be an AMA member. None of us have to be a JPO member. If you choose to be an AMA member, you choose to abide by their rules and regulations, however they come up with them. Unless you want to run for officer of AMA or other higher position than regular member, you're gonna take whatever crap they decide to dish out. Again, you don't have to join to have fun in RC Turbines/planes, etc.

Whatever rules, regs BS comes up at AMA, most of us eat it because we want to fly at AMA insured fields, cause in most cases, it's a pretty good place to get togeher with other people and BS, and fly planes.

Now, let's say AMA comes out and says, 12 lbs thrust is best we'll insure you for. And then all the sudden Bob Violett, or you, or some other yahoo says that's crap, I need 40 lbs of thrust or other number. The ama looks at that sole individual and says "I got a million members, go jump in a lake you individual".

Then all the sudden I hear of this JPO thing. A subgroup of AMA members (assuming that all jpo members are also members of the AMA as if that weren't true, that'd be wierd) anyway, this JPO says we got a bunch of AMA members that are affected, and this is what makes sense for them...............

Quite a good idea I think. Just keep considering that if there is no JPO or lobby group for turbine RC guys, then there is only sitting back and watching people legislate your hobby into whatever they consider fair for you. And when you don't like it, tough cookies.

I don't care whether anyone joins jpo or not, I just recently a few weeks ago sent in my bucks cause I decided, what the hell, JPO is absolutely nothing without numbers................................

I have no idea where the $25.00 goes, but if I had to guess, some of it went towards air fare to go talk to the ama in person and lobby them for what is good for us lowly AMA members that fly turbines (a potentially dangerous subgroup of the ama).

But even if it's paying for Steve's next Bandit, I don't really really care, cause I simply understand that if I don't pay it, then my number (me) is not adding to the total number of JPO members. #'s are a good thing. Consider this.........what if AMA comes back and says, you know what, turbines are too much out of the scope of our average representation. No more turbines. I'm not gonna stop flying turbine, but now I can't fly at AMA field. Hmmmmmm. I go get special insurance (12,000.00 a year). Nope, not gonna happne. Ok, insurance what if I have 3000 guys like me, then how much. Geee, having JPO memebrs now is a good thing. cause we can make a stand together. That's what it's all about!!

RE: JPO Statement
 

Sean,
Ok once again, you say that you joined for just to add another number to the JPO membership. What if your voice is not heard by them? What if they propose a rule that you did not hear about or did not agree with? Now you just have added numbers to an organization who did not work for you. I believe in supporting an organization that is going to look out for my interests, but like I said before the BV incident put a bad taste in my mouth and that was enough for me.

David,
If I ever did join again, I probably would not last long because I would be a royal pain in the butt sending emails back and forth with the president asking what is going on, is there any new issues, is the JPO going to be doing anything about x, y or z, when are you going to contact the ama president to address this issue, yada yada yada.

Don't get me wrong I do care about the future of turbine flying since I do fly them, but don't ask me to just blindly follow the crowd because everyone thinks it is a good idea. I am one voice out of probably a few thousand but one voice can be very very loud when it needs to be.

Patrick.

RE: JPO Statement
 

Hey Bob,
Is the JPO insuring me or the issuer of my waiver? Is the JPO changing the rules,or the AMA.That's nice that the JPO released this info in their newsletters,but what about the rest of the waivered AMA members who are affected by this.I just recently found out about the JPO,and had not made a decision about joining yet.I fly at a local field,usually during the week,and am not a coffee clotch type of guy.I've been following this jet thing for some time,and been flying d/f aircraft.The waiver process/rules have continually become more and more cumbersome,so I recently jumped off the fence and got my waiver,and will be flying a turbine next season.Whatever new hoops we have to jump through to maintain certification,I will.My point is that all the regulations in the world will not stop a moron(with money)from getting a jet and doing damage.I don't believe the system is broke now,so why is it being fixed.I'm gathering from the other thread that a/c and engine restrictions are being relaxed(via JPO lobbying),and I think that's great,but the recertification thing really bugs me.What if I don't fly 20 flights in front of a TCD?Then I can't enjoy my hobby until I do?Again,I have people here who will help me,but I'm sure not everyone is so lucky.And bottom line,the AMA should have posted notice about rule changes that affect it's members,regardless of what the JPO does.
Erik

RE: JPO Statement
 

I'm not complain here.
I just like to share my opinion to make it better.
$25 is nothing. I give away to bump on street more than that a years.
Had my name in the JPO doesn't proof anything to me.
I don't know what is your point have me to join JPO.
If JPO need $25. I can send that as donation. But don't tell me to join JPO to have my opinion speak loudly here.
If my opinion was out of line. Correct me.
Don't personally attack my opinion.
That doesn't make it sound good on public forum. Specialy you rep for someone.
Brg,
Tam
P.S.
I don't want to debate with you. It going nowhere.



]

RE: JPO Statement
 

Just curious why THIS proposal from JPO was not posted on the web site like it had always been done in the past?????

RE: JPO Statement
 

Guys.. I don't think this is the proper time for a "JPO bashing party" or a "Why should I join the JPO?" argument. Dave Brown is seriously looking to put the clamps on our facet of the hobby. We need to focus on stopping his efforts to screw us over.

RE: JPO Statement
 

I don't care whether I agree with the rules or disagree with them. I know that if I want to fly, I have to abide by them or risk my (given) right to fly at AMA fields.

Any of us can say they don't agree and go fly off of a highway in the desert all by your lonesome or with your friends or whatever.

I like to fly at AMA fields and events and so I will trust that the JPO is working on our behalf lobbying the ama to produce rules that are Safe and keep the element of fun associated with turbine flight going.

Seriously, if you don't get any of that, you're an idiot and none of us can help you. I know that's offensive, to say you're an idiot, but I don't mean it such that you might actually be someone who can't feed themself. I mean it that I was very clear, and most people can come to the conclusion that as an individual in the JPO or an individual in the AMA membership, your voice does not count for crap. Neither does mine. It's not "hey I'm a jpo member and the jpo owes me something". JPO does not owe you or me anything. We pay becuase we believe. It's a faith thing. No one owes any of us anything from JPO. AMA only owes us the limits of the insurance and other minor advantages to being a member.

RE: JPO Statement
 

We want to know!!! We want to know!!![:@]

Why not post the proposal on the web and see what happens or we are scared of publicity???

No governing body has lasted with no democracy!!!

RE: JPO Statement
 

As a turbine newbie, but long time member of the AMA, why would it not have been a more plausible thing to recommend a tiered system where the guys who want to fly the big powerplants and heavy birds have a recert process, while allowing those who are just getting started and fly the smaller engines an opportunity to build time and experience without having a big hassle? When you have large meets those with the lower rating have to produce a flight log or a demo flight for the CD prior to the event. I am asking from the point of view that some form of regulation could be mandated that would not make it seem like it was putting an undue burden on the "casual" flier. I fly about 3-4 hours per week, but will not be able to fly my turbines every week because there is no suitable field. I agree that 10 flights a year is not much, and should be the minimal requirement to maintain competency, but we just keep making it harder and less receptive for those like me who live in an area which is less populated and not quite in the 21st century as of yet.
Tommy

RE: JPO Statement
 

Exactly my points Doug and JPO has been the ones fighting for everyone that is here *****ing.


Tam,

No debate here and it does not matter who I rep for. I fly jets and I see a real problem here, Dave Brown does NOT want to see us enjoying our hobby. You criticise JPO when JPO seems to me to be the only way we can communicate our viewpoint to the AMA.


Sirrom,

When you were a JPO member, and I do remember that point in time there was a lot of discussion on the JPO email list. Email the JPO president or your JPO District rep as much as you want that's what they are there for. But also keep in mind that they also have full time jobs and lives outside of JPO, it is a thankless task as you guys are fully expressing right now. Makes me wonder why any of us bother....I guess it's just because we all love to fly jets too.


Doc Yates,

I think that is a great idea. I don't mind recertifying once a month if that is what it takes. You guys are blowing this thing all out of proportion. If you want to fly jets contact your AMA VP and tell him that you want to fly jets! If you don't want that privledge then just ignore what is happening up at AMA right now!

RE: JPO Statement
 

So we join the ama to look out for the interests of the hobby (remember the ama isn't an insurance co :^) then the jpo was formed to give the jet group a voice in the ama as we're not always sure the ama has our interests at heart and now it appears we should form another group as we're not sure the jpo is representing our interests correctly either, lol. I thought by joining the ama I was joining an organization that had the modelers interests in mind but...... now I find that I need to join several subgroups to make sure that my interest is looked after? I'm not a member of the jpo, I did join the imaa so that I could fly at imaa events and so they would look out for our interest but that appears to have run into some trouble as well. All I'm peeved about is that I may have to start traveling 2-1/2 hours several times in 2 years to have a turbine waiver holder watch me as I fly to make sure that I'm still qualified and somehow didn't cheat on my initial exam..... Next I plan to qualify for my Tailtouch waiver, no wait, I need to qualify for my inverted waiver first or is it my...LOL,. Can we possibly put some more rules into effect, there's still a little fun left in the hobby to suck out!!!!! (JK)


Jon

edited to add: I wonder how far I'm going to have to travel now to get my inverted waiver, lol

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,
Was there any reason this particular proposal was not posted on the JPO site? For some reason I had not been getting my contrails and instead have been checking the JPO and district site but nothing was posted on either about the coming proposal???
Todd

RE: JPO Statement
 

David,
In regards to your statement. I have contacted my D-VP (V) and expressed my concerns. I also recently printed off the ap and made out a check for JPO. I don't mind supporting the organization and think that they have done an admirable job. But don't automatically assume I am sitting on my haunches doing nothing. I do work most every weekend and most every day of the week so being able to travel to most of the meets is difficult. It is my hope that my representation also includes my views. I am not sure why a tiered system would not work, but maybe we should look at it. Wouldn't hurt for it be istituted throughout the AMA, not just with turbines, but I won't open that can of worms.
Tommy[&:]