RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

They are cagey because it is NOT a proprietary process, they have no patent on it. A sculptor friend of mine, who KNOWS his metals, saw it at the WRAM show and explained it all to me, how it is NOT some secret thing developed for model airplanes...
They are cagey about PRICES, that's for sure.
I saw the P-38, it was not bad, but it was NOT realistic, either. It looked cool, but not authentic. Flite Metal(another NON-propretary process done up to look like it is somthing unique) was TEN TIMES more realistic. Also, we would not be subjected to thirty-two step-by-step posts that tell nothing about the process, posted every day, as free advertising. Plus you could skip the 500% markup that alumininum tape gets when it "morphs" from plain old aluminum tape into "Flite-Metal" by just ordering it from Harbor Freight or somebody like that. I'm sure they have a Harbor Freight catalog over at NASA, probably in the Executive washroom?

My ol' Granpappy said:
"You can never go wrong with black or chrome!"

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

That cut-away shows a section of the tank that has SLA and SOFI. The dark stuff to the left is SLA (Super Light Ablator). It is an ablator that is basically tiny chopped up cork particles mixed in with a silicone binder matrix. In areas of the tank where it is needed, it is under the SOFI, up against the outer tank wall. On top of that is the SOFI (Spray On Foam Insulation) and that can be one of several different formulations.

Again, just to be certain we are still on-topic: some of these materials were flown to their place of application by turbine powered planes.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Terry, regular epoxy resins for the CF veil would be toast within the first 80 seconds during ascent. Going up-hill is a REALLY rough environment thermally, vibro-acoustically, and aerodynamically. There are some high temp resins (BMIs?), but they only get you a little bit higher, nothing compared to the temps that the External Tank OML can hit during ascent.

ET: the glue on the Harbor Freight tape would be gone even sooner! And yes, I have stacks of the Harbor Freight weekly catalogs at work. They send them far too often!

Turbine, turbine, turbine!

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

How about BVM ceramic heat paint or equilivent instead of epoxy resin?

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

OK how is it done?

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Im sorry but I can't think of anything better than FMS-1021 (Flexible Polyurtehane Foam) to do this job. It's relatively light, and very tough.
No composites, no resins. I wouldn't even consider coating non-like materials like Al-Li or Ti with composites. The composite coat would fail upon rapid heating followed by rapid cooling.
The coefficient of linear expansion is just too different between these materials. FPS-1021 will accomodate fro large temp deltas.

Don't know the circumstances or the actual condition of the STS Center tank, but this type of material HAS a specific lifespan. Wonder when was the last time that those tanks were re-coated, if ever.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Re-coated before this flight, I beleive, with $200m worth of new processes to make sure there were no voids and such.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Or just call the ceramic coating company BV orders it from...

Seriously, though, again, if there WERE a simple solution, they would be all over it...it's a complex problem, and you don't want to underestimate NASA, they ARE pretty bright.


I still vote for Flite Metal. It may blow up, but MAN, the thing will look GOOD.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

That is one piece of mis-information that seems to be out there about this flight's tank, ET-121, that the ramp was done with the revised processes. The PAL Ramp (Protuberance Air Load Ramp) is at least about 30 feet long on the hydrogen tank. To strip and re-do the LH2 tank/Intertank area flange closeout (one of the tank improvements for RTF), the LH2 PAL Ramp in that area (the forward portion of the ramp) needed to be removed. There was A LOT of discussion/analysis on whether to remove the remaining aft portion of the ramp and re-do it with the new and improved processes too. The final decision, after much much agonizing, was to leave the original aft ramp portion. Much of the thinking was that it was at least as risky doing the removal and replacement as just leaving the old one (if it ain't broke, don't jack with it). Well, unfortunately, the NASA/Lockheed Martin team was wrong on this one, as evidenced by the big PAL Ramp piece that came off. A lesson learned.

At least it did not strike any turbine powered aircraft!

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

From what I understand, LM has nothing to do with the STS. Boeing has had that contract for a long while. Am I wrong?

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Boeing is the Orbiter. LM & Boeing collaborate on USA (United Space Alliance), the integrating contractor that prepares for launches. We at LM build the External Tank at the Michoud Assembly Facility just east of New Orleans.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Hey ET is there a secret word I need to say to get the answer?

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

There's your answer Woket! That's what happend to the Orion! It was all NASA...They stole it out of the CAI box on the FedEx dock and stuck that sucker into the Orbiter. Those sneaky Bastagez's!

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

EasyTiger...I finally came clean! I answered your question. What's your address because I will have to send a friend of mine(Bill Meador) in his black helicopters to do a smear job. Don't bother listening for the sound of rotors. It will all be over soon!(Grin)...

Woketman knows of the infamous Orion/Black-Helicopter effect! He's still waiting on the Raptor!


Sorry for all the Secret Code...If we can get Woketman out of Slidell to a flyin and load him up with Diet Dr. Thunder and Rum...HE WILL TALK!!!

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

We would NEVER apply something as unreliable as an Orion on any aspect of the National Space Transportation System. And ShssT Strurrer sounds suspiciously like Lane.... RIGHT???

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Yea but it hasn't allowed me to fly the thing yet

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Woketman knows of the infamous Orion/Black-Helicopter effect! He's still waiting on the Raptor!


Sorry for all the Secret Code...If we can get Woketman out of Slidell to a flyin and load him up with Diet Dr. Thunder and Rum...HE WILL TALK!!!
[/quote]

I work for, shall we say, a HIGHER agency. I'm a FEMA level 19 Operative. Completely dissapearing a smallish Federal Agency like NASA would be child's play. Just like Project Snowcone back in 67, or the Panama Affair. Good times, those were.
Let me ask you this...why do you think there are parking meters? Do you REALLY think your government REALLY needs your stupid little quarter for using street parking? Get serious. Those are ANTENNAE. And our agency uses them every day. Care to guess for what? You THINK that's a mole on your neck, don't you? Do you really know how small they can make chips nowadays?

PS the whole thing with Scotty Bolduc and CAI was such an obvious front. "Bolduc" is a simple anagram for what? Class? Anyone? Anyone? And CAI? Come ON. Nobody would SERIOUS attempt to take on BV like that, it was all a cover operation by some agents who had a sense of humor. Same as Howard Hughes's Glomar Explorer. Manganese orbs, SURE! Toy jets, sure!

PS I LOVE using "dissapear" as a VERB. Joseph Heller invented that.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Sounds VERY conspirational. EasyTiger just may actually BE Bill Meador. I wonder if he's wearing his tin foil hat as he types?

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Tin foil may protect from X-rays...but not the Y- and Z- rays they are now using.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Do a web search on "metal spraying" and you'll find your answer. It's not magic, or rocket science. They use the time old method of spraying molten alum thru a special spray gun. The molten alum solidifies on the surface to form a skin. You can do this with almost any metal, and even some ceramics, it's been around for ages. I've been toying with the idea for coating fuselage and wing plugs so I can put a realistic surface on it for moulding (Flite Metal etc is too thin to be able to polish the orange peel out of it left behind by the adhesive) but it's hard to find a shop around here who's willing to do such a small job. BTW, sculptors have been using it for ages to coat plaster sculptures so they can polish them up to look like they were made from metal, sometimes they spray bronze, copper or alum, or even stainless steel.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Yup. My sculptor buddy said lots of places do it, he had done it himself.

It's not "plating", not as I see it, anyway.

I have to say...the P-38 looked cool...but it did NOT look "realistic". Not at all.
Keep in mind that is a subjective opinion, not a provable point.
I think flight metal(perhaps mostly due to the panel by panel process?) looked TEN TIMES more realistic.
The price of $3900, in my OPINION, is not worth the effect. I don't think it's an UNFAIR price at all...the labor involved in surface prep must be pretty serious, and with the same work, he could probably do an entire car or somethign like that.
But I think for $3900, you can probably find some really bored person to flite-metal your entire airplane!
But if the client is happy(he certaily WILL have a totally cool-looking sabre) then that's between him and the metal morph guy.
But like Aeropoxy and Flite Metal, it's not a proprietary process at all.


I don't know who Bill Meador is. YOU don't know who Bill Meador is. He never existed. He has been dissapeared. Understand? If you know what's good for you, you will never bring this up again.

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Ya know, I have not heard from Bill for 3 or 4 years now. Hmmm.........

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

I haven't either Woket! I know he's still active...I seem to keep missing him at some of the events. You remember the tapes we saw that night at the MayDay?!!! Just thinking of what BillM looks like sitting there in a foil hat is freaking hilarious!

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Easy tiger & Stumax,
From googling like Stumax said, this just a Plasma spray process that is being used then?

If so, its not that "amazing" at all... [sm=confused.gif] That would explain why they do runs of 1 particular material, then clean the gear out ready for the next.

I have seen plasma spray robots working, but I thought it would have been too hot for use on balsa & plastics like has been talked about.

Oh & the process was being used on RB211 turbine parts, just to keep the turbine factor there !!

Tony..

RE: NEED AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER FOR PATENT/PLANE/ENGINE DEVELOPMENT
 

Tony, it's not plasma spraying - I think that's a little more high tech than this. This is just plain old (VERY old) metal spraying. All you need to do it yourself is a spraygun with a big tip and an arc to melt some alum wire. Not quite as simple as that, but that's all the gun does. You can spray a foam cup with it, and as long as you don't try and coat it in one long continous coat, it won't even melt the foam.

Curtis, what was the diference in appearance between the metalmorphed P38 and Flitemetalled planes? The P38 looked good in pics, but then again so do most planes, esp when they have some shiny silver on them. I get the feeling the surface may not have been "fair" enough to look scale.