RAM no more
 

So why should the RAM thread be shut down, just because a RAM rep from Scotland starts resorting to insults. The effect will be felt by many, and so should be discussed.

I think RAM will be missed, by the owners and it's them i feel sorry for. Not the agents like Jockjets. Who has not even flown jets for years. :p

He commented on an ECU shuting down without warning. Must have been the same one that was fitted to his BAE Hawk that used to chuck it every time it started to roll down the strip ;)

Re: RAM no more
 

Where are you going with this? Thread was closed because a few individuals could not keep the thread going in a mature informative manner. So your solution is to open another thread and throw more stones? Unless the discussions can be carried in a mature intelligent manner without resulting to insults to get your point across then yes.....we will continue to close these threads!

Todd Witkoff
Jets Moderator

Keep it going
 

Totally agree with your sentiment, however I believe that the last thread was shut down because it was the Scottish RAM agent who took the conversation to such a low level. That quite rightly was unacceptable.

Is this the reason RAM closed, did it not have the right agents and support staff ? No doubt there will be people out there very quick to accuse and blame for the demise of RAM. But there is no smoke without fire.....bad service, bad agents, (who should know better than to get invloved in a public scrap on a forum) all have a part to play in the downfall.

In the UK the Scottish RAM Agent is well known for his short temper, which usally ends up with threats, it is these individuals that have done the damage to RAM, not the people that have bought the turbines.

Where is this going ? A good question and one which many RAM owner must now be asking.

Please feel free to lock or remove this thread if you feel these are questions that should not be asked.......

Throwing stones
 

I am not throwing stones or insults....

As a RAM owner, I have serious questions

And if you feel that I have not acted in quote "a mature intelligent manner without resulting to insults to get my point across " then....

Hey I'm going flying............

Bye

RAM no more
 

Certainly these are questions that some would like to be answered, unfortunately all the answers would be merely speculation unless they were coming from Ram themselves.
What do we gain now by discussing what caused Rams failure? Where should these conversations be going? Well, how bout what we can do to help bring Ram back? What can we do to ensure the 2000+ Ram engines on the market will remain serviceable and parts readily available?? What can we do to make sure your 2000.00 + turbine does not become a paper weight. Instead of bickering with each other why not work together to make sure your investments don't become another Sophia?
Valuable, intelligent discussion is what we need here!

Todd

RAM revival
 

Maybe the answer is to hope that someone like Simjet is prepared to take on the job. I don't see anyone in the RAM organisation, or their agents, being in a position to support the turbines already out there.

Whilst I agree it is not always a good idea to look at the reason surronding the downfall of a company and often serves little purpose, there is an old Chinese proverb that says "to know where you are going, you must first understand where you have been".

Sound advise I think you will agree, I as much as anyone would not like to see RAM rise from the ashes, only to stutter and fail again. What good would that do anyone ?

RAM no more
 

Well, low value, unintelligient remarks shouldn't necessarily be squelched. Everyone's going to have an opinion here, and they ought to be able to voice them as long as they don't break the site rules.

I'm of the opinion that nothing is useless, it can always be used as a bad example!

Ram How Many engines and owners ?
 

I was wondering how many motors and owners are left anyone Know?

RAM
 

About 2000+ I had heard.

Where are they all.....? :confused:

RAM no more
 

Jettsett 99,
By capitalizing 'Left' in your post, do you mean left-handed, left of center, or remaining?

Ram spelling
 

Are you going to get on me again! Please leave my poor spelling alone. Im only a short drive from your field....

RAM no more
 

"Is this the reason RAM closed, did it not have the right agents and support staff ? "

I am only speculating, but I do NOT think so. RAM had a lot of great reps and agents. There were exceptions, of course. They ditched a lot of the best ones fairly recently.
In my OPINION, and it is only one opinion, the problems came right from the factory, not the reps.

I don't think discussing WHY RAM failed is a bad thing.

In the end, though, maybe only Albert and Rei know the real answer. I do know Albert said in his infamous deleted post that RAM had accrued two million dollars worth of debt.

"What do we gain now by discussing what caused Rams failure? Where should these conversations be going?"

A lot.

"to know where you are going, you must first understand where you have been".

Worth repeating.

Ram
 

ET, I also heard they owed their parts suppliers money ? It shouldn't be hard for someone like Tad at Golden West to pick up the Pieces and supply servicing. I do think that Jet Cat Quality and advancements in ECU programming had allot to do with Ram loosing market share and lets face it if your selling allot of engines your going to make money! if your not you go into debt just to keep the lights on. I think what allot are saying is that Albert stayed with the ship tell the end and we know that the majority of ram users switched to the Cat, So the cash flow dropped and so did the service!

RAM no more
 

Well, you know all the manufactures are here in cloak mode (and I mean all of them), I would really like to hear the real deal from the horses mouth.

Than you can kill any thread you want to!

Richard Newman

RAM no more
 

Tad has a long way to go before he can service RAM's. He had mine for 2 1/2 months, a month waiting for parts, and then a month and a half waiting for him. He sent it to me and it blew up on the first run. It's now at RAM. Think I'll get it back?

RAM no more
 

Tony, you might want to try Carlos.

RAM no more
 

Well, it's true that the discussion could well degenerate into some less than gentlemanly remarks ... potentially ranging from people who might have a total and utter dislike for RAM to people who can't seem to allow any criticism of RAM without feeling the need to attack the person who made that criticism - plus all those folks whose opinion lies somewhere inbetween. (BTW, it's kinda interesting that you could substitute "AMA" for "RAM" above, and see the exact same range of emotions - but then, if you didn't have extremists at both ends of the spectrum how could you possibly have moderates ? ;-)

However, there may well still be value to be gleaned from the feedback in general. The responses may serve as an indication of what the "hot buttons" are that upset the unhappy customers, as well as what it is that makes the happy customers happy. Perhaps if Jetcat, AMT, BMT, etc., etc all take the time to digest even some of what's being said, they can avoid some potential pitfalls that may otherwise lie in their future.

To give just one example, many people voiced their opinion that we should be more willing to accept lengthy delays regarding the servicing and repair to our engines, especially given that other types of engines, radios etc typically take a while to get serviced - so why should we expect much faster turn-around for turbines ? Definitely a valid point. However, it was also pointed out that its not the length of the wait that is particularly upsetting to some - it's being repeatedly and unnecessarily misled about when the job will be done that rubs people the wrong way. Also a very valid point. Add this up and perhaps the answer here is that the remaining turbine manufacturers should be much more cautious and realistic in terms of setting the expectations of their customers, rather than saying what the customer wants to hear regardless of whether that is realistic.

Similarly, a total lack of response seems to be more upsetting than a response which gives bad news about delays - so perhaps the lesson here is that it's better to communicate some not-so-good news to the customer than to delay communicating with them until you finally have some good news... ?

If this kind of lesson can be gleaned, then there may actually be some positive value in all of this discussion. Its kinda like we used to do at one of the companies I previously worked for, where after every major problem was over we held a post-mortem to see what could be learned - and that included soliciting input from the customers involved. As long as everyone understood that the purpose was simply to identify possible improvements (rather than to crucify those who may have made mistakes), it was an invaluable excercise. Can we do the same here ? Can we somehow avoid crucifying Albert, without having to go to the extreme of being afraid to openly discuss what some of the problems were, so that others may learn from this ?

YMMV,
Gordon

Ram
 

Tad is are best bet for a local service guy, Also Bob Wilcox is a great Turbine mechanic, with ram gone someone in the jet community should step up to the plate to help with Ram Repairs?;)....I know that when Mr Whittle started out couple of his blew up also!!!

RAM no more
 

Tad may very well come up to speed on RAM service. I only posted what I did to let those out there know that IMO he is not ready to do RAM repairs. And frankly, my dealings with him on this repair seemed to indicate that he's not that interested in it. Maybe that interest has changed with the current events. He seems like he should be able to do it if motivated.

I have three RAM engines. Two are down right now because they need service. The other will need service in 50 more runs or so. I surely do hope that someone opens a quality service center for these engines. But so many things have to be in place. What is the current parts situation? Have the past problems been partially caused by the quality of the parts being supplied to RAM? Can quality parts be supplied to whoever opens a service center? These are not simple issues. For instance, the supplier of the ECU has had two of mine to repair for nearly 5 months. If he can't or won't back up his product, what can that service center do?

Now here's just an observation, take it for whatever you think it's worth. To in any way blame RAM's customers for RAM's demise is IMO just silly. Can some jet modelers be demanding? Certainly. But probably no more so then any other area of modelling. Frankly, I have been amazed by the patience I have seen displayed by most jet modelers. And to say we should all just chill out because this is a hobby, well, I think that is also just silly. Anyone spending money with a business for any kind of product, hobby or not, should expect that business to operate in a professional manner. And that does not mean that the company has to jump through every hoop the customer puts up. Just operate professionally.

RAM was far from a cottage industry. It was started with the idea to make money. That it didn't is not the customers fault. It's not the reps or the dealers fault. Who does that leave?

RAM no more
 

Hi guys,

For what it is worth, TJT Australia, can and will service and repair any RAM turbine that requires any thing mechanical, the electronics is outside our scope.
We can do all service and maintenance, also crash repair damage. on the engine block but can not do anything with the Ram electronics.

Electric, from what I can gather most of the engine manufacturers openly state who they are on this forum, I do and I know Bob Wilcox and Dennis Fuente do.

BRG,
Chris at TJT

RAM
 

After having conversations with several individuals today, I believe that by early next week most everything will be sorted out as far as who is doing what and where. If what I have been told is correct (pretty good chance), RAM in it's new form will be something as RAM owner / operators will be happy with.

I am excited and at the same time cautiously (?) optimistic about the future. Not because I own several RAM engines, but because I have enjoyed dealing with these guys for the past several years (until recently).

Hope for the best, it may work out that way.

JB

RAM no more
 

"with ram gone someone in the jet community should step up to the plate to help with Ram Repairs?"

Someone HAS. Carlos, their ex-service guy, is opening up a shop just to service turbines. Not to sell, just to service. Seems like it's high time for that. Only time will tell if that will be a viable business. I hope so. He lives right near RAM and is willing to pick up engines from RAM to be serviced.

"Can quality parts be supplied to whoever opens a service center? "

That's a VERY good question. I think that MOST of the basic repairs, like bearing changes, can be done with parts gotten through the same people RAM would have gotten them from. ECU's, well, they could be replaced with aftermarket ones. Proprietary RAM parts, though, that's an open question. But...will most service issues need them?

"To in any way blame RAM's customers for RAM's demise is IMO just silly."

Worse than silly. INSULTING. All the customers did was give them thousands of dollars.

"RAM was far from a cottage industry. It was started with the idea to make money. That it didn't is not the customers fault. It's not the reps or the dealers fault. Who does that leave?"

My thoughts exactly. NO WAY that you need to be treated in a cottage industry manner from a company like this. They were pulling in way too much money for that kind of excuse. What I was buying was a finished product, not an experiment, from a decent sized company, and paying a very substantial sum of money for it, and I expected service commensurate with that.
Again, though...for ME, it was not the DELAY in service that was the real problem. It was the runaround.

RAM
 

I would like to take a minute to respond to the notion that several folks have regarding a bullit proof product, service and other related topics. Not just at RAM but at others as well.

Many of the parts we have all used that are mechanical or electronic at one time or another has had a problem. If any of you have ever owned or been closely associated with fullscale aircraft especially turboprop or jets you will find there are constant headaches (problems). We have all heard the saying,"the cheapest thing you ever do is purchase it". that is not totally untrue wit the minature turbines we use either.

Lycomming recently had an engine recall. They had some bad crank shafts and they offered to replace each engine that had one of these shafts. At $35,000 per engine that is a pretty big hit. My neighbor who uses his Piper Navajo for charter was out of business for nearly three months waiting on the engine replacement. Not to mention the 30 days it took to re-engine the same airplane about six months earlier. What do you think that did to his business. Lycomming is a pretty good business!!!

We had two Cat 3208's replaced in a Hattaras. Supposed to take 4 weeks. Took 9 weeks. Cat is a pretty good business!!

Publix Supermarket's hanger is about 100 yards from me and the Lakeland, Florida Airport. One of their planes is a Lear 60. The APU has been replaced twice (I believe that is correct), and they still have a problem with it. You would think a $14,000,000 plane bought new would do better than that.

Point I ma tryig to make is that everything isn't always as bad as we make it seem sometimes. Not defending anyone. Just trying to give us something to think about.

JB

RAM no more
 

Shipping stuff to Australia is not such a big problem. Just got a package back from Brian Mercer there today, he fixed up a 1967 O.S. proportional radio and two Citizenship escapement systems for me. It took four or five days each way. So, it IS an option for US users.
And things are cheap, the aussie dollar is low.

RAM no more
 

Chris,

I guess I was talking about the fact, that you never see BV or, other than in the help section, Ram. And some others that don't come to mind. And in general, you know Albert is watching these threads. All I was pointing out is, everyone in the industry is watching, and not all speak with us as openly as others. I simply wanted to hear it from the person with all the answers, instead of speculation.


Please don't take it the wrong way, If those people choose to be
in the shadows, thats there right! But, it sure would end the guessing and the blame stuff!

Richard Newman

>Electric, from what I can gather most of the engine >manufacturers openly state who they are on this forum, I do >and I know Bob Wilcox and Dennis Fuente do.

>BRG,
>Chris at TJT