First Ducted Fan ??????
 

Well said, Bob

qsdriver stated:
"In other words the sky is not the limit with funds ."

That, alone should have kept out any references to BVM :mad:
Johnny

Bummed Out
 

I guess what I'm really bummed about is that I'm supposed to be at the Great Pumpkin Fly-In in east Texas (flying my Bob Cat) and here I am in Austin looking out my front window watching two Long Horn cattle standing out there in a monsoon. :( I'm going back to bed.

Buyer AND Seller make a market!
 

I am not sure you realize this but the implicaton (intended or not)is that someone is stupid for buying BVM at his prices. That might explain some of the rhetoric we are having.

I will say again, something is only WORTH what someone will PAY for it. That is what makes a market, it takes a buyer and a seller.

I go to events, there are usiually more BVM flying than anything else, all the customers seem pretty happy and BVM cannot make planes fast enough, even in a recession.

All those customers are stupid for paying 3 times what the plane is "worth", right? Isn't that what you are saying??

Buy cheap, buy twice, it has always been true, like it or not.

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

bvmjethead,

My point has nothing to do with whether BVM is a great product, it obviously is, but the attitude from people like you who allude to the fact that nothing else is any good. And don't try to deny it, you've made that perfectly clear. Don't need to call you any names, you blatently advertise what you are and everyone here knows it. So take your negative attitude and go bother someone else.


Brian

Re: Buyer AND Seller make a market!
 

I am sorry, but I begin to be tired by this stupid, narrow minded and short view rethoric about "BVM Uber Alles", and "Heil Violett".

You are going to events, right . Where ? Have you looked at the pictures published about jet events elsewhere in the world ? Do you see a lot of BV jets in England, Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Australia ? Do you think those guys do not fly ?

I like BV products, I bought 2 of them, but, please, keep some perspective and distance. There is a lot of very good products out there, with very satisfied customers too.

BTW, what car do you have ? Is it a Rolls Royce ? No ? Why ? Following your logic, you certainly should.....

Bernard

whew, where to begin
 

Probabaly just about as sick as many are of the chants of "dumb rich guys who buy BVM"....


Complete non sequiter. Of course the guys fly in Europe, never said they did not. I fly in the US, my comments are limited to the US.

My only comment was to illustrate that many, many BVM planes are flying, many other brands are not. So there must be many "stupid rich guys" having a lot of fun.


Don't you feel stupid for paying 3 times what they were worth?


Wow that's a pretty huge leap, but I'll bite.

I drive a old van, but if I could AFFORD IT (hint) I would probabaly get a Porche or Ferrari. And I do not think my friend with a Rolls is stupid for paying so much for it, I just think he can afford to pay for what he wants.

The moral:

One should not be surpirsed when one calls another a "stupid rich guy" and then one finds that the individual does not appreciate it.

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

Who in this thread called anyone a stupid rich guy? Has nothing to do with that, it has everything to do with someone who acts like a jerk and no one appreciates it. Get it?

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

Don't confuse me with Kevin and his posts, as I am sure you know many conversations can go on in a thread.

Look up several posts, I have already quoted this once

****You want one good reason: he charges three times what his planes are worth***

Then I used the word "implication". To me this statement IMPLIES that one got ripped off if you buy BVM

Let me ask you, if I told you that you paid 3 times as much as you should have, would you like it? It's your choice, isn't that what everyone is saying??

Call the question
 

I hope the guy that started this thread remembers what his original question was. :confused: I'm don't remember if he got his answer.

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

Well, my input was really just to say that there are many good products that should be given consideration, not just one. Like I said, nothing against BVM and their products, or even how much they cost. You are absolutely right, people will buy what they want.

I do know something though, I would not want someone like bvmjethead talking about my products with such a negative attitude towards everyone and telling people to "pipe down". I would LOVE for him to tell me that in my face and not with the internet between he and I. Believe me, that leaves a bad taste in your mouth no matter how good the product is.

-Brian

Re: whew, where to begin
 

Your comments, primriser, where "Buy cheap, buy twice, it has always been true, like it or not." Does not seem limited to the US, but very broad, and as such, stupid, discreminatory, implying that all the other brands are low quality and more or less stealing their customers. Such statements are simply not acceptable, and I am certainly not going to let them go un-noticed. If one want to buy a Porsche or a Ferrari, at least he knows and has the honestly to admit that its by love of luxury, not for any lame excuse disguised in a pratical reason.

Bernard

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

I fly a lot of BVM products but the TG F-15 is a very good start for a DF jet. It flies like an Ugly stick but with a fan instead of a propellor. The Maverick was/is also a great DF jet as is a Balsa Bandit, or the new BVM sabre.

The best advice is to find someone local that flies jets, even if you have to drive a little bit.....sometimes local in the jet community is a 4-6 hour trip.... do your research and get the plane that fits your budget and that you have seen fly and you should end up joining the most fun part of RC flying...JETS!


David Reid

"stupid"?.....ouch!
 

Well if you liked that one, I got another I just made up ........

"You get what you pay for"

Is that ones less "stupid and discriminatory" LOL!!



Yeah your right, Porsches and Ferraris really do not handle, accelerate, brake, etc any better than a....hmm, what do you drive?

Lake Wales
 

gsdriver

You gonna make it over to Lake Wakes in two weeks? Excellent opportunity to see what's out there. If you do, look me up, I'll be flying the primer Bob Cat with orange wing tips. I guess painting it will be a winter project. Having lot of fun flying it, don't want to miss a chance to fly it.

Re: "stupid"?.....ouch!
 

I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee 2 wheels drive which I use sometime off road, and have some trouble keeping below the 75 mph speed limit. Even if I bought for 3 times as much a Porsche or Ferrari, I could not get them on my favorites trails in Big Bend without destroying them, and it would be a total waste anyway because of the speed limit. Sorry, but sports car like that are pure luxury (SUV too, to be honest), and have absolutly no practical use, at least as long as we are talking about the US. BTW, there is VERY FEW people able to drive Porsche/Ferraris to their limits, and NONE able to do that legally....

Bernard

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

well put.

:)

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

My wife is really gonna be mad when she finds out I spent $1500 to get my Byro-blaster F-16 built and ready to fly! Especially if she finds out I could have gotten a much better jet for $3000 and still had to buy radio and power plant and retracts and brakes on top of that.

Anyone wanna help me out and take this Byro-blaster off my hands before she finds out? It has'nt flown yet. It's ready to fly.

Sarcasm aside, before I bought my jet I talked to Mr. Bob Violett. Very nice guy. He said something like "buy cheap, buy twice". But, he also said that my byron kit will do okay to start out.
I expect enough success with it to let myself buy another jet someday. It'll probably be a BVM model.

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

It's been my experience that while Bob and his reps truly believe in, and have pride in, their products, these folks are not zealots nor cliquey, as some might have us believe.

Since the BVM reps are frequently among the best jet pilots around (in the US, at least), these guys are regularly singled out by newbies or less experienced pilots for help in flying their latest creation, no matter who manufactured that creation. I've yet to hear any of the reps commenting after such a test flight "This is crap - you should have bought BVM products". Instead, they are cordial, helpful, and sometimes even a bit envious... I heard one rep say about another manufacturer's F16 "What a beautiful flying airplane - the bigger size (compared to the BVM model) really helps it - wonder if we can get Uncle Bob to make a bigger version?"

I think it's not the official BVM folks, but rather some of us customers, who might possibly be helping create an appearance of an "us and them" division, and I think there are at least 2 main reasons:

1) The convert. No "bash" intended against born again Christians here ... but for anyone who knows someone who has just newly become a born again Christian - well - while we don't deny them the right to their beliefs, these folk are just a tad over the top at times, since some of them can't seem to talk about anything else. So much so, that on more than one occasion I've heard people make comments like "Hmmm... if I take up the occult, do you think that would be enough to make Fred stop talking to me about how much better his life is than mine?". Now maybe - just maybe - some of us folk who truly appreciate the quality of the BVM products we buy, are just a bit too effusive, and come across as the same kind of convert. If so, we are actually doing BV a dis-service, not a favor.

2) Defensiveness. Let's face it - BVM kits do cost more than some others. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who simply can not justify spending the kind of money that a BV product requires. Most such people (in my experience) just accept that fact, but some unfortunately can't accept it, and feel the need to harass people who can afford them with deliberatley demeaning comments about dumb rich people spending much more than the kit is worth. That kind of comment is generally intended and virtually gauranteed to cause a defensive response that is an over-reaction, such that instead of just responding with "Well - I find it to be worth the money - but I understand that you might not, so good luck with whatever kit you do buy", you're bound to get a number of "Oh yeah - well BV kits are the only kits that are worth anything - everything else is pure crap." kind of replies.

So - after that long rambling post, lemme conclude with some suggestions on how we can perhaps reduce some of these tensions in future:

• If you own a BVM product and are happy with it - tell other folk about it, but don't overdo it to the point where you turn folk away.
  
• If you can't afford a BVM product, don't begrude those who can, and don't attack people for spending their money in a way that they are happy with.
  
• If you own a BVM product and someone harasses you about being dumb for spending so much money - recognise the outburt for what it really is, and also recognise that your response will be much more effective if it's a calm, logical reponse to an illogical attack, than if you fall for their bait and over-react.

Anyway - since this kind of discussion has popped up in various threads lately, it's clearly something that's been on a lot of people's minds. Consequently, we've allowed a lot of lattitude in letting you get some of it out of your system. That said, I think this topic has been worn out now. I'm gonna leave this thread open for a little while, just so that it doesn't look like I'm trying to get the last word - but when I return from the flying field today I will close the thread if it seems like its still going down the same repetitive bickering path that it has for the last day or two.

Regards,
Gordon

P.S. ALthough I used a quote from Scott's post to start this one, my comments above are a response to the thread in general, not to Scott's post.

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

David,

Excellent advice. I'm proud of you!!!!!

JHH F-86...
 

This is going to be my first jet...why? Several reasons:

1) Two other local guys within 10 miles have built and flown this jet.

2) Able to purchase the kit from a jet friend for a very fair price

3) Money - face it, some of us are not making a ton of money to be able to afford the best of the jets.

So the orginator of this thread, same advice as others have posted, find someone local that can give you advice, help you during the building process and also of the flying process.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to keep excited about building this jet this winter to get it completed before spring so I can fly it this next summer...can't let all the other guys have fun flying at jet events while I sit around watching.

Michael

HOW DID I MISS THIS ONE?
 

Hello,

First of all, thank you very much to the gentleman for the compliment on 'professionalism'. I appreciate that.

You know, it's true that the rabid proclamations of end-all superiority are tiresome. Not only that, but I think it diminishes the number of people who end up getting into jets. When a guy reads that he needs to spend 3k on a DF, or else he is going to be looked upon as 'cheap', that's helping nobody. I still have it in my mind that the more jet pilots we have, the better off we all are as a special interest group. So why scare them away with that kind of talk?

There is probably a good reason that BV discourages his Reps from getting involved in this kind of thing. He knows it doesn't really help anyone. What helps is to contact people directly, help them at events and at home. It's normally the non-Reps who come with this 'BVM is gold, and everything else is dogsh*t' approach. Guys like John R, Terry N, Tony F and Paul B, are often found 'under the hood' of equipment other-than-BVM, or buddy cord flying a guy with his first jet (a non-BVM product) in effort to help people at events and at home. They don't go around telling people that if they don't buy BVM, they're blowing their money. Those guys understand that they are supposed to be ambassadors, not provacateurs, and that their actions and attitudes probably draw more customers than the 'my way or the highway' approach you often read in here by others.

Everyone knows that BVM makes an outstanding product. It's not the only way to go, though, as some in this thread have ridiculously attested. Oh, and it's silly say someone is rich because they buy BVM. I've bought two BVM planes, and I'm so far on the opposite end of rich, it ain't even funny. Like any high-end product, many buy to try to attain status, but many more buy because they perceive value. That's why I bought the two BVM planes I owned, because I thought they were worth it.

BVMJETHEAD gave some very good advice. He's right when he advises newcomers not to purchase based solely on price. Often a lower initial pricetag leads you down the nickel-and-dime path to spending the big money anyway, and 'if you're gonna spend it, why not spend it on a better plane...' I know that it's a slippery slope you tread on when you mention manufactuers by name, but sometimes, it's hard to avoid when trying to give advice. BVMJETHEAD mentioned one mfgr. who has of late gotten a reputaiton for taking money and not delivering product. That's something that a newbie should be told about. However, he's dead wrong when he suggests that a $1500 jet is going to end up disappointing the owner. People have mentioned the TGA F-15 quite a bit in this thread. Getting one of those in the air can be done for under $1500, and it's not only unfair to infer that it's junk, but it's also downright untrue. I don't personally care too much for that plane, but mine flew great, and nobody can deny that it's a very popular and successful first jet. Also, they tend to be as long-lived as anyone's else jet out there. I see the same ones flying today that were flying at my first jet meet in '96. The Yellow Aircraft Starfire is another jet that can be put up for under $1500. Contrary to what the original author of this thread was advised, that is one jet whose parts fit SUPERBLY, and whose design is VERY sound, and whose performance on DF is universally known to be VERY impressive. So, it is patently bad advice to suggest to someone that they can't get into jets, SUCCESSFULLY, and with good equipment, for $1500. And what about SCALE? The best-looking, most scaled out airplane I ever saw was built from a $400 JHH kit.

Just because a kit is inexpensive, it doesn't mean it's cheap. That Starfire I mentioned is only $575, and it comes pre-primed, pre-sheeted, and carbon reinforced. Nobody pulls one out of the box and says, "Well, maybe I should have gone ahead and spent three or four times more, then I might be happy right now." There's no DF sport-jet currently in production that can do anything a Starfire can't do--at ANY price. Now that, to me, is true value. Keep it real, keep it honest, and keep it cordial.

Best regards,

Re: HOW DID I MISS THIS ONE?
 

Shaun,

Thank you for understanding the spirit of my post. I never intended to bash anybody elses product, just simply point out that I thought if you're gonna spend $2000 might as well spend $3000 and get BVM.

I think I'm gonna just stay completely away from these kinds of threads from now on. All this misunderstanding and he said she said stuff drives me nuts. After all what do I care what this guy buys? It's not my $$ or my headache if he doesn't like the product.

Scott

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

Shaun said, "The best-looking, most scaled out airplane I ever saw was built from a $400 JHH kit."


Shaun, you don't get out much!

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

BVMJETHEAD,

I guess that you found out as I did that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. Through experience you and I have learned what works well and lasts. I don't fly BVM exclusively. There are several other planes that I like that BVM does not make.

What kills me is the people that complain how much BV's kits cost have never built one. I doubt that PR 38 or Bernie has ever built a BVM kit, so how can either know what they are talking about? One additional fact that has not been brought up is resale value---BV's completed models seem to be much higher in resale than other brands.

For some, no amount of convincing will change their minds toward BVM. Some people prefer to sheet their own wings, make their own servo trays, cut out their own parts, etc., etc. I have a few friends that are like that. They will trade their own time for money. I, like many others, prefer pre-sheeted wings, drop-in servo trays, pre-cut machined or laser cut parts, etc,. etc. I'm working on a kit as we speak that leaves a lot to the imagination of the modeler concerning the construction. You do get what you pay for.

Kevin

First Ducted Fan ??????
 

Kevin Greene said:
"I, like many others, prefer pre-sheeted wings, drop-in servo trays, pre-cut machined or laser cut parts, etc,. etc."

You just described my Avonds F-15
JA