BVM EDF
 

Hi everyone,
On the FJ 2006 thread there's talk of BVM's EDF. I can't figure out why he would go back to DF. I can see why guys buy the foamies that Hobby Lobby sell; they're relatively cheap, and you can fly them in a small area.
The pictures show a regular size model and BV model's are anything but cheap. I'm not sure who the market is, especially with all the known limitations of DF. I'm guessing you'll still have the DF noise and you'll need a regular size field to fly them, so why take the step backwards to DF?
BRG,
Jon

RE: BVM EDF
 

There's probably a bigger market for EDF than turbine.

RE: BVM EDF
 

You don't need an EDF waiver, you aren't limited to 200 mph, etc., etc... so maybe something like this appeals to a sufficient number of people to make it worth BV's while..

RE: BVM EDF
 

Very noisy, why - you can hardly hear the backround conversation
;)
http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/show...cat=509&page=8

RE: BVM EDF
 

Actually, it is the FAA that limits to 200MPH, not the AMA, so you would still be limited. Not that the FAA pays any attention. Bob

RE: BVM EDF
 

Actually, it is the FAA that limits to 200MPH, not the AMA, so you would still be limited. Not that the FAA pays any attention. Bob

??????????????SAY WHAT??????????????????

Check the Regs BEFORE you type................

Tailwinds,

John

RE: BVM EDF
 

MUCH bigger, I would say. Much.

Jon, sooner or later you will have an electric epiphany and understand.
Electric will soon outperform glow on all fronts.
It already does on the smaller ones.
EDF is a totally different animal from turbine, you can fly it in places where turbines are unwelcome, they are much less intimidating to civillians and such.

RE: BVM EDF
 

EDF is easier to set up as a plug and play system. I have not flown glow ducted fan for 9 years just electric. I'm not looking back either. BVM would not be doing it unless there is a market for it. And there is!!!!
Bob

RE: BVM EDF
 

Yup. I liken the recent progress to Moore's Law, where the power of computers doubles and the price drops by half every two years. Same thing is happening with electrics!

RE: BVM EDF
 

yea, elect's have that cooool sound and the smell of jet-a- .......ooops i mean burning lipos and remember a good plug and play elect for a viper size bird to perform will be well over $1000.00for power pkg. and start multipling when you start burning batts.-if silent jet flight is the next big thing you all have already missed the bandwagon -it's called sloap soaring! sorry, i don't see the point of jet elects through my closed mind unless they are inexpesive foamies, not what a bv airframe will cost and i've flown bvm exclusivly for 13 years[:@]

RE: BVM EDF
 

Well...maybe BV knows something you don't!;)

RE: BVM EDF
 

just remember he spends lots of time and $in the engineering and it will be first class , but the electric mentality out there for the most part will probably have sticker shock and will not be able to justify compared to what the current foamie standard has been. turbine flying has been all about the sound and smell to give you that warm and fuzzy feeling of realism and that isn't going to happen w/lipo and how many cars will burn-up as the newbies learn to care and feed their new highly volatile technology. --signed the devils advocate[:@]

RE: BVM EDF
 

My cost for a scale EDF (90 mm) is around $1000 to $1200 today. If I could get a BVM electric for $1500 I would. There are alot of 90mm stuff out there and it is growing. Batteries will last if you take care of them. Not everyone who flies electric flies parkfliers.;)
Bob

RE: BVM EDF
 

Not sure what reg what that would be Bob. Maybe you know something I don't. That would mean model rockets break FAR's all the time. As you should know, if we were busting an FAR the FAA would care. I always understood the limit is based on AMA insurance requirements. More important, where's the flight report on that F-16? Bob

RE: BVM EDF
 

was not being pregidous only making a general statement. the tech. is impressive but will the masses pay for it. you high tech elect guys are a small cottage industry compared to the foamies

RE: BVM EDF
 

Are you serious, in that you have never owned ANY jet but BVM? Wow.

This technology has absolutley nothing to do with some park flyer foamies...we are talking ten to twenty pounds of thrust, and climbing, from some very serious motors.
You'll see...it's changing fast.

RE: BVM EDF
 

Jets in general are only a tiny cottage industry compared to prop planes.

Things are really changing, and FAST. It's not really "high tech" anymore for prop stuff...if you want to fly a 40 sized plane, you can fit it out with pretty much all off-the-shelf stuff and not a lot of guesswork and not a lot of money. The planes are getting bigger and cheaper. I'm not talking park flyer stuff here, I am talking about a revolution in the larger stuff.

RE: BVM EDF
 

thrust is currently going for approx $100.00 per pound w/ turbies will elects be 1/2 that since they will only be 1/2 realistic. i guess if i buy one of those fancy futuba radios i can have a turbine soundtrack playing and a elect jet then can be what we already have THE REAL THING!

RE: BVM EDF
 

Masses aren't required, just a small portion. What is the total # of waiver holders? 1,000? 1,500? How many of them fly BVM stuff? A lot but not all. SOME of those guys who like the idea of a "fast enugh" jet they can fly at the local model airport will buy it. Convince a small percentage amongst the 200,000 or whatever the # is other AMA members who DON'T hold waivers and thats called a MARKET.

RE: BVM EDF
 

$ and cents look at what the avg. club flyer flys and compare that cost to any decent jet kit out there ie skymaster

RE: BVM EDF
 

"Realistic?" A Viper does not even have a CANOPY. To me, there is nothing very realistic about it, it looks like a toy jet, nothing like a real one. Same with a BobCat or KingCat or most other models.
On the SCALE side of things, though...hey...turbine has electric whipped. No doubt. The sound, the smell, yup, that's a missing part of the electric package.

I think a LOT of people would never touch a turbine...too intimidating, or they don't have a place to fly that will allow it...and would definitely spend the money on a serious EDF jet. I guess we will see.

RE: BVM EDF
 

Skymaster? Thought you only did BVM?;)

Cost keeps dropping on the electric stuff. Just bought batch of motors that cost about a THIRD of what they did a year ago. No exaggeration. Same with the batteries and ESCs.

And...like I said before...with the smaller stuff, the electrics already EASILY outperform glow.

RE: BVM EDF
 

that was using sky m as an example of a good moderatly priced -quality kit

RE: BVM EDF
 

If BVM utilizes their glow fan unit for their electric version all of those BVM fan units that you could buy dirt cheap will have renewed value.....I would imagine all that would be needed to convert a glow unit to electric would be to swap out the engine mount/faring.......And maybe an adapter for the rotor........:D

Kevin

RE: BVM EDF
 

You'll see. Your convictions about what electrics are all about, what they can do, what they cost, etc...that will all change. I know mine sure did.
I did electrics right from the start, going back to Astro Ferrite motors back in the Seventies. Got out of it a long time ago when I wanted "real" performance. Got back into it only pretty recently, when they started HAVING "real" performance!

RE: BVM EDF
 

Now that I think about it the engine mount/faring may not have to be changed if BVM offers an adapter to mount the electric motor to it.....The most expensive part of a BVM fan unit is the cast aluminum mount....Why ramp up new tooling when the existing fan unit could be made to work..............

Kevin

RE: BVM EDF
 

Because that would be the antithesis of BV's previous approach, and, frankly, I'm surprised to see a converted Viper rather than a new airframe.
One of the keys to BV's df success is he looked around and decided that he needed a clean sheet of paper to wrap the best sized airframe around his own engine and fan in order to get the best performance. And it showed.
If he is just packaging together somebody else's components to make an EDF conversion kit, well, that's been done before. If he has something really new, I'm all ears!
But I am only speculating, I have no idea whatsoever what is under the hood of his Electric Viper. Which is the second electric viper I have seen. Another guy already did the Sabre, and is doing the F-80.

RE: BVM EDF
 

I have to agree with Easytiger. I just went all electric on my 50 size and 90 size helicopters and they out perform my glow heli's! I also fly 90" electric airplanes and they all fly as good or better then glow. I think electric jets are the next thing. I noticed Tam is coming out with an A10 electric that can also go with P-60's. I would never give up my turbines, but I would add a 3000.00 electric jet to my stable if it could perform like a turbine.

RE: BVM EDF
 

Yup. I had my eyes opened recently. And I'm a real hardcore engine nut, I have .006 Valentine diesels and such. But I have seen the future, and it's electric. Electric just has certain advantages in certain ways. Turbines, at present, certainly have other, different advantages. I'll take them both, thank you!

RE: BVM EDF
 

Oh, because that expensive cast piece weighs about a half ton! Gotta go, it can be replaced with something much much lighter duty, there is no vibration.

RE: BVM EDF
 

That's what I am talking about. The Viper is stressed for glow, and to just convert one implies a lot of wasted weight, and perhaps, wasted dimension. He should start with a clean slate and make something truly optimized...that was why his ICDF models always flew a cut above the competition.

RE: BVM EDF
 

ET! A mold is a cavity into which you apply the desired amount of glass, it ISN'T a GDF Viper fuse off the rack from what the attendees tell me. It is lighter. The wing is different - 6 or 8 inches more span for some extra area and laser cut wood vs. foam core / balsa / carbon spar or injection foam / Obeechi etc. From what I hear it is right, IE - not stressed for 200 mph...

RE: BVM EDF
 

Now, maybe the fan WAS just quickly converted to get it in the air and that's why the inlet covers in the pits:D. Heck, my first effort at converting the glow Viper left the epoxy painted exit ducting in situ - if it didn't work I had a Viojet for it;)

RE: BVM EDF
 

Come on guys! As much as I love turbines (mine specially) there are two points to consider here:

1) BVM is the best of the best any they are showing serious interest on the topic of EDF

2) If there isn't a market for it (where competition would try to beat him at), then why is it Bob keeps the jet intakes and exhaust always plugged??HUMM! he could be hidding a secret atomic powerplant!!! no, he just knows others are working on it too...

You are giving EDF's the "JetJoe" treatment and JetJoes ARE turbines!!!!!

I did see it fly today at FL Jets, a lot better than most Boomerangs on the event

RE: BVM EDF
 

What would you guess is under the hood, there, Chris? About the same as yours?

PS if you dissapear suddenly, we all know who did it!;)

RE: BVM EDF
 

And if you were designing from the ground up, you would probably size the fuse differently in the first place. The original was designed to accomodate the head of the ICDF engine and the tanks and the weight of that setup.
Given a clean sheet of paper, you will get the next level of performance. That's the BVM way. Why he makes his own ICDF engines, his own retracts, even his own filler valve!

RE: BVM EDF
 

I think electrics are great for the enviroment and if it goes fast who cares?;)

RE: BVM EDF
 

Well, the volume required for the fuel vs. the volume required to house the battery is remarkably similar. They are shaped a bit differently and the battery doesn't get lighter as the flight goes on so you can put it anywhere you want. If I had absolute free choice as to how a big EDF was designed I'd change only a couple of things. The outside shape I'd leave the same, I'd change the internals a bit. Instead of curving the ducting inwards immediately to make room for fuel tanks between the duct and the side at the CG I'd run the ducts straight back along the fuse sides for a foot or so before gently curving inwards to meet the fan mounted towards the rear of the wing. Then the space between the ducts opens up for easy battery access. That space the cylynder head occupied is used for wires and the ESC on one of my setups. There just isn't a lot of empty space inside once you install all the equipment.

Hard to say what's in it since I haven't seen it fly, just heard second hand reports. I've flown two different setups in mine that worked very well, one was appr. 2,600-2,700 watts with a flying weight of 11.5 and one was 2,200-2,300 watts with a flying weigh of 12.25. The 2,200-2,300 watt setup goes a little faster in level flight - it equals the speed in the fastest diving pass in that video but flying basically level ovals. So the fan is better because it is performing a bit better on less power at a heavier weight. Physics is physics, you can't get more than 100% efficiency so if the BVM plane weighs 10 pounds and it isn't doing more than 130 mph it could be as little as 1,800 or 1,900 watts. The motor and battery combo is key in EDF. if they haven't been tinkering for quite a while there is probably room for additional performance but it's all a trade off in power vs. weight vs. duration vs. landing speed and glide angle.

RE: BVM EDF
 

I have been working with and flying a modified viojett rotor for a couple of years now. It really hasn't cost that much and it has been great fun. It's exciting that BVM will be producing electric stuff. Quite frankly BVM priced me right out of the market. I can't shop there any more! [:o] Plus I have a hard time putting a $10,000 jet in the air with a radio I fly my park flier with (JR10X). It's all hanging on the same frequency! I had to go back to scratch building and that is where all the fun began. It is a hobby again, new, and a lot like it was 15 years ago. Don't nock the electric stuff until you have tried it. Electric's will be HUGE. Club membership is down cause' of the elecric arf/park flier stuff.

I'm building my 3rd Ribbie Electric Mig-15, With permission from him, he was the inspiration for me back in 92' or so when I first saw the plane fly. I am using the same set up only GP3300 for power. And my rotor is clipped to 4 in. It's not new!!

BVM 60" Sabre for size comparison.

RE: BVM EDF
 

Here's a thought..

It's BV's money and he can do what he wants with it.. I personally think there is a market for it..