Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Help me out with this one. A couple months ago there was a thread about a jet event in Brazil or something like that. The event was basically a speed event for jets. I remember there where some interested parties here in the US that would have liked to or would be interested in participating in a speed event for jets. Some said it couldn't be done here in the US because of the AMA restriction of 200 mph. When the idea of it being NOT an AMA event where brought up and that they could get it insured by some other agency, some said that it still was not OK because a jet pilot has to obey the 200 mph anytime, anyplace.
Now my point is this, in another thread under scale there is an event that is being organized for over 30 lb planes. There is NO weight limit regardless of what type of plane, jet or prop. I personally think it is a great idea. I'm sure the person running the event will do a great job. The event seems to be welcomed by many with open arms.
What bothers me is why can't we do the same thing here in the US with the speed event? It seems the risk is the same. On one hand you may have a plane that weights 150 lbs and flies at 70mph, on the other hand you have a 35 lb plane going 300+. Either way it could kill ya.
Again, I am ALL for the heavies unlimited event. This is not about starting anything on that event. I personally would like to see more of them. But it just bothers me that when someone mentions " racing" or " speeds over 200" in regards to the jets that everyone flips out and says it can't be done or worst, shouldn't be done. So why the double standards.

Billy

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Read all this over again, this topic has been pretty much argued to death IMO:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_35..._1/key_/tm.htm

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

No thanks, already done that.

The point is simple. Its not to stir the pot nor is it to keep throwing the same ideas around over and over and over again. My point is that when something is related to "jets" and "speed" that it seems to hit a stonewall quicker. My thread is about the double standards more than the actual event itself, I just use this as an example. And since the acceptance of an overweight plane is very recent, I thought it was and is appropriate to mention again " double standards".

Billy

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Perhaps this information is relevant for this thread. Even after the repercussion and excellent results of our jet speed event in 2005, the supposed to happen 2007 edition was cancelled... not by any regulating institution, but for decision of our own club.

To make the story short it was said that it was too much work, costs and risks for our club to handle for just a few jet dudes having fun... this was decided after a fellow modeler ripped both wings off his jet while trying to beat the record.

I agree that any jet event offers risks for the pilots and public, but some of us questions if the typical 250+ mph , 6 planes at a time flying jet event is much safer than a 400+ mph strictly controled, one plane at a time event...but like Sean said, this was discussed to death.



Enrique

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

I'd like to see the ad for the scale event. If its in the US, I'm sure that the AMA is going to have something to say about it.

Bob

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

I think sometimes it's not what you propose, but who is doing the proposing.
Paul

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Uh, the AMA is an organization. They are not a government ajency or affilliated with the government or laws in any way. They do have the right to set down rules and grant or deny membership based on those rules, but they in no way have any authority over any individual beyond that scope. If some people want to go somewhere and fly a bunch of 100 lb. jets at 500mph, they (the AMA) have no say what so ever. Now, if there are specific laws governing such activities by federal, state, or local governmets, of course those would have to be followed. In the case of a club cancelling an event, this is a private club and they can make and follow whatever rules they like.
Why are autos allowed to race? Why are full scale jets allowed to race? Why are sailboats, big rigs, jet powered cars, motorboats and pot bellied pigs allowed to race? Why can someone go out and build a 28 foot winspan X Wing four engine rocket fly? Because there are no laws that prohibit it, and I'm sure there are no laws that outright prohibit high speed jets either. It may be difficult to find a venue for it, but that's a different matter.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Try telling that to Terry Nitch. Remember the huge Concorde from a few years ago? They were going to take it to some airport and fly it covered by private insurance. The AMA made it known that if that plane ever flew the AMA membership of the pilot would be revoked permantly. While the AMA has no regulatory or law enforcement authority they can make it so you never fly at another AMA field.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

So let's see the link to this "contest" for unlimited weight scale models...

Bob

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Bob,

Find that event on Frank Tiano's website.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Steve,

OK, so I must be dense, I can't find it. Are you refering to Top Gun? Top Gun rules comply with the AMA limits, don't they? I find it hard to believe that Frank Tiano, who has publically said that he will weigh any jets at his event that look to be over 55 lbs, would host an event where aircraft of any type over the AMA limits are allowed.

Bob

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Here it is:

Posts: 231
Joined: 12/24/2001
From: Lakeland, FL, USA
Status: offline Hello All,

I’d like to tell you about a new event I am working on. I don’t have the “perfect” name for it but so far it’s looking
something like, “Monster Planes South”. The concept is to have a “Fly-In” for very large RC aircraft.
When I say Very Large, I talking about a minimum of 30 pounds and NO Maximum limit!
This event will have outside Insurance so we do not require an AMA Sanction. Therefore, NO Weight Restrictions!!
There will be a stringent Safety Inspection but I don’t see any other unusual procedures.
I have already secured a safe site here in Lakeland, Florida and have reserved it for three days in the last week of October, or the first week of November, 2008.
I am looking at STRONG awards in several categories, awards that will include Cash and a prestigious trophy.
I will announce the exact dates and who the Sponsors are in about 60 days. But for now, if anyone has a large model,
wants to show it off and fly with us, keep this event in mind.
One last thing, the event will cater strongly to War Birds, Jets included, but will welcome any large civilian aircraft,
with One Exception. We are not looking for any 3D type Aerobatic models, regardless of how big they are. We prefer
real “scale” models. We are expecting a minimum of 40 vendors / manufacturers.
If there is any confusion about your model, I am happy to speak personally with anyone who feels like calling me
at 863-607-6611, or emailing me at [email protected]
Thanks,
Frank


< Message edited by FTiano -- 10/9/2007 2:20:05 PM >


This is taken from a post at RCU. I think this would work very well if handled right. I have no doubt that Frank will pull it off and handle it properly.I like it.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6468359/tm.htm

This is the FTiano thread. Its first page (for now) in the Scale RC forum of RCU...

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

This is the way I understand it:

Firstly, no one has to belong to the AMA to fly anything......but generally speaking, to fly models in the USA you need a site....you want a site, the owner needs to be insured. The AMA can provide that site insurance and does so thru it's Chartered Clubs. But, in providing that service, the AMA requires all participants be be Members, and for good reasons: Members individually are aware/agree to abide by the Safety Code to reduce accidents/claims...only makes senses from a insures standpoint. Good for me, too....if I'm flying somewhere...I want to know for certain the other pilot is insured for his liability....he is if an AMA Member.

So, the AMA has requirements if you want to avail yourself of their insurance. Period. But here's the kicker: if you are an AMA Member, then you are insured anywhere you fly...insured site or not...site insured by someone else, or not. And the AMA is saying that since your insurance is always in effect you may not violate their rules (heavy planes, fast jets over 200, etc.) and make them liable for behavior they don't permit. And if you do, then certainly it is within their rights to no longer include you. Loss of Membership.

Apparently, the AMA/carrier cannot just 'turn on/turn-off' their insurance when you want to violate the conditoins you contract for w/ Membership. Yeah, pisses many off because the AMA has a lock on us for site isurance, particularly......but you wanna fly in violation, and jeopardize the AMA program, why shouldn't they want ya out?

Ray

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Very interesting... I'm going to stay tuned to see what the AMA says. Personally, I think that this event has the potential to be safer than a jet speed event. Yes, I know that kinetic enegry is determined by both mass and speed and a big, slow model can be as destructive as a small, fast one. However, I think that the techniques for building very big models as opposed to very fast ones are simpler and better known to most experienced modelers, the strength needed for a heavy weight is more easily tested than that required for very fast speed, and a big, slow model is easier to get out of the way of if it starts to go astray...

Bob

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Ray,
According to Carl, before he left AMA, a member can opt out of the insurance for a specific event. All they have to do is send a letter to HQ with the details and they will still be a member but will have no coverage for the opt out period.
I'll check tomorrow w/HQ and find out if this still true.
BRG,
Jon

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

FWIW, at Bomber Field a few weeks ago, a very experienced pilot was flying a large P-38, and lost an engine on take off. The airplane became unstable and went into the tents. Went through a tent and crashed into a $2,000 prop plane under the tent. People were running everywhere.

I've seen this happen a couple of times over the years, less than five. And the one thing that I have taken away from this, is that to state that a big slow model is easier to get out of the way if it starts to go astray, I believe is simply not true.

There is a joke a friend tells about a Ducted Fan F-4 that was headed to the pits a couple years ago. He says, "I looked at Doug, Doug looked at me, and we ran half a mile and only went 10 feet".

You simply can not anticipate with much accuracy which way to run IMO.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Has anybody heard from Eddie Weeks lately? Is he still planning the Worlds Fastest R/C Event? Would be cool if it could happen but it would be some work to get insurance.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

See my post in http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6494670 where I included Carl's email in which he made it clear that you can NOT opt out.

Your AMA at work... contradicting itself as usual

BTW, I already have a couple of emails out to the AMA checking whether there is a change in official position to go along with the change in official. No response yet.

Gordon

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

If you look under the thread about waiver questions here in the jet
fourm the same basic discussion is currently going on, also someone
posted a reponse from the AMA on the subject.

IMO the AMA has no right to try to control what an individual does
when not at a AMA event or site as they dont own anyone.

Also the the AMA needs to take into account the reason why most
people belong to the AMA is becaused they are forced to in order
to have a place to fly.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Yeah, well, there's what we'd want the AMA to do (as an organisation that is supposed to serve us), and then there's what the AMA wants to do (as an organisation that wants to control us)... sadly, the two have frequently diverged. Maybe once DB is gone, some of that will change.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

We can only hope!

Bob

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

I think the AMA put the kibosh on that one too. Then the plan was to make it a "UAV event," but then the FAA gets involved...

Bob

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

I agree with you 100% Billy, I think there is a double standard.

RE: Are there double standards with Jets?
 

Maybe as time goes on things will change. They already appear to be heading that way. Big is beautiful.