Jason, do you mean that if I fly a turbine at an unchartered field without a waiver, and have an accident, that the AMA would drop my insurance altogether? I understand that they wouldn't cover the turbine accident, but I don't understand what you mean by "flying a turbine without a waiver is not allowed anywhere". Would the AMA refuse me a future waiver or membership?

That's entirely within their right to do if they so choose. That's why this is about more than just "going without AMA insurance for a flight or two".

Just think about how many club facilities, events., etc you may lose out on in future (for ALL RC models, not just turbines) if the AMA decided to make an example of you by declining future membership.

Gordon

Not true, since I know of incidents where the AMA insurance has been quick to take care of people who were injured by our RC models.

Regardless, I don't really care about the AMA insurance since it is secondary / tertiary to my home owners and my Personal Umbrella Policy ; I didn't join AMA because I needed insurance, I joined it because I needed access to flying fields, and that's extremely hard to do around here without having AMA membership.

Gordon

I have submitted a question to the AMA Support Center to clarify this issue, but it sounds like I won't be flying my jet until I get the waiver (except on Buddy Box)...

I have to agree with Gordon.

JasonP

Depending on who answers, you may get conflicting advice, so be patient and be prepared to ask multiple times if you want a definitive answer.

e.g see http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_35...tm.htm#3864227 … I got an answer from the AMA saying that you CAN temporarily OPT out of their insurance ; within a few days I got a second answer stating that the original answer was wrong

Exactly what I find frustrating in general about our legal system - any question regarding an exact interpretation of the law gets a response of "it depends" from lawyers... [sm=cry_smile.gif]

Sorry, off topic...

I see no reason to call the AMA and tell them you are going to fly a 100lb
plane, I think most of us know they will tell you what they feel is in
their best interest. Also I think we all know if it can be proven that we
were not abiding by the safety code the AMA does not have to pay any
claim we may submit.

But on the otherhand what ever we fly while we are at a non AMA site
the AMA has no way to control that.

You are %100 correct about that.


Jason P

Come on Gordon, your being ridiculous. How about for something a little more "common". How about for a 18lb. model doing 150 mph?

Uhh.... hello.... It has nothing to do with "common" - the whole point here is to see what the AMA's position is on someone deliberately busting the rules and claiming that "it's OK coz I wasn't at an AMA chartered club's site. Flying unwaivered without a buddy-box is busting the rules ; 100 lbs is busting the rules ; 300 mph is busting the rules, etc.

Unless your position is that the AMA is OK with you busting one rule at a time, but not two simultaneously, then surely the optimum way to test the theory is to get their attention by telling them you're going to bust several rules at the same time... ?

Gordon

Gordon

Non AMA event

Non AMA Facility

What part of NON do you not understand??

Indeed - if it can be shown that there was wilful disregard for the safety code then the AMA certainly has some room to wiggle out of the claim – but probably not before spending a chunk of change in lawyers fees etc in order to defend themselves (since practically any plaintiff’s attorney is going to name the AMA in a suit anyway). That financial exposure is no doubt part of the reason why the AMA cares what a current member does even when the member doesn’t “want� to be covered by their insurance at the time.

True – they can’t control what you do outside of an AMA chartered club, but if they want to be hardass about it then they certainly can prevent you from using any other AMA site afterwards. BTW, note that I said “can’, rather than ‘will’, since Carl told me there is no ‘fixed’ penalty to go along with any wilful disregard of the AMA safety code, but that there would as necessary be a meeting convened at the HQ to decide any penalty based on the circumstances of the indivdual case.

BTW, don’t confuse the message with the messenger. What I am relating here is my experience of the topic based on numerous consultations I’ve had with the AMA, NOT how I’d like the insurance etc to work.
Personally, I’d love for us to be able to “opt out� of AMA insurance at will, ratehr than dealing with the way the system is set up right now.

Gordon

AMA insurance is no different than any other insurance out there. If you don't follow their rules they won't cover your claim, simple as that. As far as them banning you for life from their coverage and all that other nonsense spread in this forum, they would have to have grounds for that sort of thing, not just hearsay evidence. So fly to your hearts content on your own property and burn the whole place to the ground if it tickles your fancy, the AMA can't do a thing about it and would care even less.

Which part of the AMA insurance do you not understand ?

Do you think that all AMA members fly only at AMA chartered club sites, or at AMA sanctioned events ? If so, you are seriously mistaken.

Many AMA members do not belong to any club, and consequently the AMA insurance is set up to cover you regardless of where you are flying.

Gordon

One thing that has not been mentioned. Any crash especially one causing a fire may put the future use of any field in jeapordy. The owner, be it the city, county, or Corp. may chose to close the field if they see it as causing a danger to the public or it's property. This may be even more true if they determine that the flyer wasn't qualified or didn't hold certain credentials within the organizations who might govern him, such as the AMA.

So then why doesn't the AMA require all Turbine sales to require a waiver? Thats where it can only be regulated to some degree. If I lived in BFE and put in an field in my backyard on MY 200 acres or whatever, I would be pretty pissed of the AMA said that I couldn't fly turbines there without their permission. They cant do that!!! Bottom line, AMA is there for protection and minor regulation, not enforcement of flying everywhere. Thats all I was saying.

It's simple ... if you are not an AMA member, then you are not governed by the AMA rules, so you are free to buy a hundred turbines then fly and crash them in your own 200 acres as much as you want. You have no AMA membership or waiver for them to threaten you with.

Once you ARE an AMA member, that changes and the AMA does have something to hold over your head.

Gordon

Gordon

Please do not take this personally but your statements are going well beyond just being a "Messenger!"


<<Which part of the AMA insurance do you not understand ?>>

The part where you claim they can take "punitive action" against me or my AMA membership as a result of my flying a turbine aircraft without a waiver at a non AMA flying facility, holding a non sanctioned AMA event with a non AMA approved weight and or non AMA approved power to weight ratio size and speed.

<<Do you think that all AMA members fly only at AMA chartered club sites, or at AMA sanctioned events ? If so, you are seriously mistaken.>>

That was "NOT" what the discussion was about and you know it!!

<<Many AMA members do not belong to any club, and consequently the AMA insurance is set up to cover you regardless of where you are flying. >>

This is true only if you abide by their Waiver system and saftey rules that govern Turbine activities with the EXPECTATION of having THEIR insurance! The example here was focused on those individuals who were NOT going to abide by those rules, were not going to be flying at a AMA sanctioned event or site, and were NOT EXPECTING to be covered by the AMA insurance in the event of an accident.

It is unreasonable IMO for the AMA or anyone else to think just because
you are a AMA member you cant fly certain types of models when not
at a AMA chartered site. IMO I dont think the AMA cares what you do
as long as you dont file a claim with them if you arent supposed to.

As far as them being dragged into a suit seems like it would be a easy
case to beat if they could show the AMA member was operating outside
the safety code especially if the member admitted to such.

I have been flying turbines for almost 5 years now. and I have my AMA turine waiver. most of the fields i fly my turine at are NOT AMA fields. but we stll play by the rules. we used the buddy box when i was first learning how to fly turbines.

Since I am an AMA member, i am covered anywhere I fly as long as I follow their rules.

each member of AMA has their own policy, so where ever you fly and are flying within AMA rules you are covered. ( this goes for AMA and NON AMA fields).

now, if you want to fly at a NON AMA field with your turbine, with out a waiver, AMA will NOT help you towards any mishaps you may have.
just make sure you have homeowners.

It is very simple, you want AMA insurance? then you have to play by their rules.

Mark

Then please feel free call Carl and discuss it with him.


No, I don’t. Sorry, but I can only read and respond to what you wrote, not what you were thinking about when you wrote it.


Once again, feel free to call Carl and have this discussion with him. I’ve told you what his stated position has been thusfar, so if you have a problem with that position, you are welcome to take it up with him. I don't mind leading the horse to water, but I'm not interested in trying to make it drink.

Gordon


FYI, I enclose a sample email from Carl on this subject: The only change I have made to it, is to set bold on two sentences to highlight them below

This was a good topic. I would like to thank all of you for the inpute. The last question is this: I must have 5 supervised solo flights with a waiver holder and some buddy box work according to AMA. How many of you guys meet this requirement? if you do not then you will not be covered by AMA right??? Would anybody like to come to Savannah Georgia and fly with me. I should let you know that I have been flying for 18 years and I have 15gal of Jet-A through my Babby Boomer so I hope I will not scare you on the Buddy Box!!!!! LOL

I'm not sure if you are perhaps misinterpreting something here (or I'm getting forgetful !). IIRC, the post-waiver flights don't involve a buddy-box UNLESS you are doing some flights before you have received your paperwork back confirming your waiver. The 5 flights refered to by the AMA are to be SOLO flights.

Gordon

So what if you fly a turbine at a private area with no AMA and no waiver? Let the fur flying begin.