safe engine operation.
 

My call for JetCat to improve their manuals , particularly in the most essential aspect of failsafe setting, seems to have met with underwhelming indifference, no doubt born of complacency. It is with regret that I advise you all that it can all go horribly wrong in the best regulated area of jet engine operation and did last night.

A young aircraft engineer was killed when he was sucked in to the engine of an Airbus A321 during ground runs. Couldn't happen, shouldn't happen, it DID happen. Let it be a lesson to ALL of us that jet engines of ALL sizes need to be treated with the greatest respect.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

I agree, I think jetcat should add a safety warning to their manuals

BE VERY CAREFUL TO NOT GET SUCKED INTO YOUR ENGINE


All kidding aside, of course you need to be careful, common sense will keep you safe 99.9% of the time. Thankfully our model turbines are quite reliable and safe, I'm far more scared of the big gas engines swinging 25+" props both as a spectator and operator, or helicopters and those whirling things above them, but I will be sure not to get sucked into my turbines ;)

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Once again we see a serious safety issue being trivialised. Of course we are not going to be sucked bodily into one of our engines, pretty by obvious, but there are number of dangers associated with high rpms, high temperatures and increasingly high thrusts so they need to be treated with great caution and respect. It is, however, possible, that smaller items COULD be sucked into our engines which COULD cause a catastrophic and uncontained engine failure and I cringe when I see how some, a minority, of guys operate their engines, complacency doesn't even begin to describe it.

So far as the JetCat failsafe issue is concerned I see it this way. Many of our ruling bodies, BMFA, GTBA VMAA,AMA, etc., have made failsafe operation MANDATORY and for very good reasons not least minimising the risk to OTHERS, perhaps nothing to do with model jets, who may be placed in jeopardy in the event of a radio failure leading to a crash. Such a crash occurred in the UK a couple of years ago when jet model crashed into a house on the edge of an airfield and another jet crashed into a caravan at the British Nationals both, by the grace of god, without serious injury. A correctly set- failsafe could go a long way to minimising the risk of serious damage or injury and the software is in the ECU ! Despite this function being mandatory the factory in Germany has never even mentioned failsafe operation in their manuals (JetCat USA have done so for some years). Now, is that not complacency in its worst form and sometjhing which needs URGENT action. ?

I absolutely believe that not one more engine should pass to an end user UNTIL that deficiency is rectified and it should and could be done in a matter of days if not hours, IF the will is there. For the life of me I just cannot see why this glaring ommision has been allowed to continue for so long.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

umm...

The failsafe set up procedures are on page 29 of the manual:

http://www.jetcatusa.com/PDFFiles/In...al%20V6.0F.pdf

Setup failsafe mode and “Learn RC”. The updated ECU has the unique ability to shut-off your engine if you have a radio failure. This is accomplished by detecting that the signal from the receiver’s throttle output is either missing or outside the values that were learned during setup. YOU ARE REQUIRED TO USE THE FAILSAFE! This will not instantly shut off the engine. A timer is started when the failsafe condition occurs and the engine will immediately go to idle. After 3 seconds (2 seconds after V5.0A for AMA requirements as of March 1, 2004) the engine will then shut off. This 2 second timer is reset back to zero anytime a non-failsafe condition is met. Your R/C signal must be broken for at least 2 continuous seconds before the engine is shut off. The following is for PCM receivers only. Users of FM (PPM) receivers bypass the failsafe instructions and go to the ”Learn R/C” section in the manual. (FM Receivers are not allowed under AMA rules.) Setting the failsafe for JR PCM receivers The following procedures are for most radios like JR and Futaba. Call JetCat USA for failsafe setup procedures for Futaba 8U radios or other radio brands. If you look at the following servo travel graph, you can see how the ECU detects a failsafe condition. The dark gray bar is the transmitters throttle channel for low throttle, low throttle trim and full throttle set to 100% travel. This is the value that is set into the transmitter’s failsafe. The light gray bar is a reduced low throttle, low throttle trim travel and full throttle set to 75%. This is the value that will be taught into the ECU. If the throttle input to the ECU is between 75% for low throttle, low throttle trim and 75% for full throttle, then this would be within the normal range taught into the ECU and will operate normally. If a failsafe condition exists, the transmitter’s pre-programmed 100% low throttle, low throttle trim will be outputted by the receiver and this value would be outside of the ECU’s taught in range. The ECU will now automatically set the engine to idle (after the FailSafe delay) and start a programmable timer. The timer is set to 2 seconds by default. If the timer times out, the ECU will shut-off the engine. If at anytime during this countdown the receivers signal is reacquired, the ECU timer will be reset and the engine will go back to the speed the throttle stick is currently at. Low High throttle throttle Failsafe 100% low / 100% high throttle travel.ECU 75% low / 75% high throttle travel. Page 29/75
To accomplish this, you must execute the following steps. It is VITAL that these steps be preformed in this order for the failsafe feature to operate properly! Review your transmitter’s manual on how to set the failsafe. Examples are given for the JR 10X with S style receivers. YOU MUST PERFORM THESE STEPS! IMPORTANT: IF YOU CHANGE YOUR TRANSMITTERS FAILSAFE AGAIN IN THE FUTURE, YOU MUST REDUE THE FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS AGAIN. FOR TWO CHANNEL OPERATION: DO NOT SET THE AUX CHANNEL IN YOUR TRANSMITTER FOR FAILSAFE. KEEP IT IN HOLD MODE ONLY. THE AUX CHANNEL IS ALWAYS DESIGNED TO STOP THE ENGINE INSTANTLY IF COMMANDED TO DO SO. • First, set your transmitters travel parameter to 100% for low throttle and 100% for high throttle. On the JR 10X transmitter, use function 12 to access the throttle travel. • Set your transmitters failsafe for low throttle, low throttle trim. On the JR 10X transmitter use function 77 to access the failsafe. Enable the throttle channel for a failsafe (select 1 so the bar is in the top position ▀) and then set the throttle stick and throttle trim to their minimum positions. Save this minimum position by pressing STORE. • Return to the travel menu and now set the minimum and maximum throttle travel to 75%. • Now you must teach in these values into the ECU. Refer to ”Learn R/C” section in this manual for this procedure. You can verify the failsafe function in the default GSU screen. Default Display This symbol will appear when in failsafe. If you turn-off your transmitter, the default display will indicate a failsafe by displaying an . If you turn the transmitter back on, the will disappear. If the does not appear when you turn-off your transmitter, the fail-safe is not programmed properly! 21 0.0 6.9 OC: You can verify the failsafe parameters by accessing the RC Check Menu. Press and hold the Select Menu key on the GSU and by pressing the ► + key until the RC-Check Menu is displayed. Now release the Select Menu key. Time in Failsafe (seconds) If you press the ◄ - in the RC-Check Menu until you see FailSafeTime: the display will indicate the number of seconds the reciever was in failsafe. This is a total time for all the failsafe counts. If you turn-off your transmitter, it will increase every second. This is a great tool for diagnosing the quality of the RC systems RF link by checking this after each flight. FailSafeTime (s) :100.1 Page 30/75
Number of Failsafes If you press the ◄ - again you see Failsafe count: the display will indicate the number of times the receiver went into failsafe. If you turn-off and turn-on your transmitter, it will increase this count by one. This is a great tool for diagnosing the quality of the RC systems RF link by checking this after each flight. FailSafe Count :1 Refer to the Limits menu for the following parameters. Failsafe delay Setting for the period before the ECU will go into the Failsafe mode and reduce the throttle to the preset FailSafeRPM. After the FailSafeTimeOut below, the engine would then shut off. This maybe programmed from 0.1 to 20 seconds (Default = 0.1 seconds). Failsafe Delay :0.1 Failsafe timeout Setting for how long the turbine will run in a failsafe condition before the engine shuts off. This may be programmed from 0.1 to 20 seconds (Default = 2 seconds). FailSafeTimeOut :2.0 Failsafe RPM Setting for the RPM the engine will run at durring the FailSafeTimeOut. This maybe programmed from Minimum RPM to Maximum RPM (Default = Minimum RPM). FailSafeRPM :33000 If the engine is shutdown because of a failsafe, in the Info Menu the LAST-OffCond :FailSafe will be displayed. The Info Menu has selections for LastFailsafeCnt:0 and Last FailSafeTim:0.0. This is the number of times the ECU went into failsafe and the actual time period it was in failsafe during the last flight.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

I think David is saying that the FS instructions are not in the NON USA sold engines. All my recent US Jetcats manual have the FS instructoin in them. If the European or non US models do not have the FS instructions, I can see his point. Non US owners of Jetcat may not look up the US jetcat web site for such info, hence David's concern?

Hey Matt, does the spektrum or the Futaba FASST system accept the same FS programme re: FS setup?

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Hi Ehab,

Yes I know what David is referring too. I have passed these concerns up the chain. I just don't want the average person to think they are no instructions, because there are.

I really did not want to post here but I did anyway, I am sure I will have my head handed to me for my trouble.

The manual shows not only specifics for certain radios, but also the theory of the failsafe (which JetCat originally developed and presented to the AMA safety folks). Once you know the concept, the programming is pretty straight forward.

I helped a gentleman with a FAAST but I don't have access to my notes, I will check tomorrow. Zillions of guys are running JetCats with Spektrum and JR so it must not be too hard!

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Ehab is spot on, Matt there are NO instructions on the FS in manuals outside of JetCat USA and I have made this clear (I thought) numerous times. Yes, I DO know how to set it up because I have used JetCat USA's excellent manual. The point is, that the factory don't seem to care about this issue with THEIR manuals and THAT should be corrected forthwith so that EVERY JC owner is FULLY imformed on how to set it !!!!

Absolutely no reason for anyone to hand your head on a plate, just the opposite.

I have tried gently cajolling the factory into correcting this, without success, so it seems time to push as hard as neccessary to correct this chink in our armour.

Clearly JetCat USA think its important as THEY have got it in the manual so why cant JC's engines sold outside the USA have the same info., it is vital ?

Dave W, Ali M., do you have any comments ?

Regards,

David.

PS....................... and this comes from someone who holds JC engineering in the highest regards and has supported them massively, and still does with another two new engines bought, through my purchases and in magazine reviews.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

I see nothing but the best intent from David's side. It is very easy and it is the right thing to do to correct this issue for outside US owners. It is almost impossible to put down Jetcat's excellent engineering, so why lower their own standard by not providing such info in the manual or online....is what David is saying[&:][&:]...

Matt, thx for your level headed help ;) and if Jetcat hands your head, I'll glue it back on with some Hot stuff (your remmeber that stuff?) :):)

edited for grammer!

RE: safe engine operation.
 

As an avid Jetcat user for many years now I have to agree with David. I use this product because I have huge respect for the design, engineering and electronics from the German factory but…. When it comes to customer care it’s high time the factory got it’s act together, their treatment of the people who put dinner on their table is nothing short of arrogance and I have said so many times before!

On the 18th May I gave Ali a G Booster 160 which had a problem, he sent it to Germany, it was repaired and sent to my home address and it was back in the model on the 30th May!! THAT’S SERVICE!! Beat that Jetcat, if you can.

m

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Is G-booster not made by jetcat too?
Baie Moerig
Meer Moerig vir mr Bosman en sy oorlog

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Mr grapic,
For your info when u buy helicopter you also buy superman licence, sometimes for big piston too, you get big ego and no need for safety.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Disregard..

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Just wanted to say "Thank you" to JetCat USA for their online manuals.
I would have been stuck without them. None of my UK purchased JetCat turbines came with any manuals at all.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Well if that is true then there is a more serious safety issue!

RE: safe engine operation.
 

None of the engines shipped from the Jetcat factory in Staufen, Germany include a user manual.
Neither a paper manual nor an electronic one.

As I stated in the P-160SX review ( http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7620423/tm.htm ) I had to "guess" how to setup the engine, given the fact that it features a totally new integrated kero start system.
I got it right from the first try by using the "kerosene plug manual" from Jetcat USA. Using this manual may not be obvious since the 160SX does not feature a kerosene plug !!!
Additionally these kero start instructions are not included in the "6.0F" ECU manual, which is anyway not up to date:
It does not cover all of the new features of the 6.0F ECU version, neither does it for the 160 SX 6.0I ECU.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

The easiest thing to do, as an intrim solution, is to put a link on the German website pointing at the US Jetcat website for maual...if that is not already done! I can't imagine buying a turbine w/o a distructions manual[8D]

RE: safe engine operation.
 

No Mr Gladwin, it is not being trivialized, however, I fail to see what somebody getting sucked into a full size engine has to do with a FS setting in a turbine manual.
It's like comparing somebody being hit by an SUV to somebody getting hit with a 1/10 scale RC car.

The FS setup in a manual could be there, maybe should be there, but lets face it, harping on the lack of it in a manual isn't solving the problem. The bottom line is, there are a LOT of turbine users who buy their engine, skip over all the warnings and how to run the engine correctly in order to simply get the thing running. You speak of complacency in the manual, but what about at the field, my bigger concern is the lack of care I've seen at some events. I remember in 2004 watching a few fires which were totally avoidable simply because nobody brought extinguishers with them to the start area. I've seen jets sit fueled and ready, and started with all hatches on, no GDT, just start and fly. It's great that these engines are this reliable that we can get away with that so often, but that's where I see bigger safety concerns.

It's not your high regard for safety that gets to me at all Mr Gladwin, it's the way you present it. No these things are not toys and no we should not take for granted the power that they do have, but honestly, you come onto an internet forum and start a thread by telling us about somebody who got sucked into a full size engine.

In the end, it's up to the end user to correctly use these engines, just like it's up to the end user to be skilled enough to fly these jets. No manual in the world can prevent accidents, it can only leave those who are willing to read better informed. The rules for failsafe are already in place, a conscious and concerned owner will make sure the failsafe is set up correctly regardless of what a manual tells them.

There isn't a model airplane engine out there that I've ever seen where the manual tells you to ONLY use an electric starter and not flip the prop to start it, yet I've seen more people cut fingers up hand starting a prop than I could tell you after 26 years of flying. There is no IC engine manual that tells you to set a failsafe to shut down a 150CC engine in the event of a radio lockout, most people have their failsafe set to Hold, that means potentially an uncontrolled 32" prop flying where-ever it wants.

I just don't see where going on about the lack of something in an instruction manual is going to resolve this particular issue.

Just my 2 cents...

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Please, please, please read gain what I wrote. But to explain, again, what I said was that the grissly accident at TFS shows just what CAN happen in the BEST regulated aspects of jet engine operation. It is up to US to keep OUR house in order and do all that we reasonably can to protect others, and ourselves, from the possible hazards of OUR operation. I made a comparison and I think its very valid. Your reminder to us not to get bodily sucked into our engine means you entirely missed the point to the degree that you felt the need to trivialise the issue.

Clearly you do not share my concerns and that rather confirms, to me at least, the nature of the our problem !!

Actually your post makes me think the problem is worse than I thought. As you point out there are problems in many aspects of our operations , failsafe operation, propane dump etc are safety issues which SHOULD be in the manual. Thats one thing which could easily be fixed. Its no guarantee that it will be properly applied but at least the info will be in the hands of EVERY user.

You say that you dont see that pressing this issue will solve the problem, then just WHAT will , ideas please, beecause results to date are not encouraging!

You say that you don't see a large i/c engine manual telling you to set the failsafe etc. In the UK the BMFA EXTENSIVELY publicised the correct failsafe settings on radios AFTER the death of young girl because of an incorrectly (not ) set failsafe.

Finally Mr Graphix would you rather have me, (unaligned to any model manufacturer but a committed customer of jetCat with a whole lifetime of experience of jet engine operation from JPX to CF6) pressing this issue until it is resolved or would you rather just it be dropped and we wait until the BIG accident happens, THEN do something about it ? Your call.

I passionately belive that sensible action before the accident is vastly better than action AFTER it. There is NO personal gain for me in pursuing this action, far from it, as your post shows, nor do I seek any, but I might, just might, help prevent a preventable accident and THATs what aviation safety awareness is all about, in ALL branches of aviation including ours.

Thats my view born of some extensive experience, take it or leave it. Your experience may tell you otherwise.

Regards,

David.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

Mr Gladwin,
I have not missed your point, but rather you have missed mine. Pressing the issue of ONE manufactures manual missing something like this isn't going to solve it, not on a public forum anyway. Better direction would be to talk individually to the reps of Jetcat and get them to put the pressure on the company.

I have been flying turbines for 8 years and have NEVER had an accident. I have had one tail pipe fire which was put out immediately because the extinguisher was there, I have had ONE flameout due to failsafe which was because I have made sure to set up my equipment properly, I have had one engine blow the compressor apart (old RAM) which harmed no-one because I make sure to do my starts in a safe start up area etc. I am not complacent about safety, what I am getting at is you seem overly concerned with a manual rather than in the real world use. Would it not make MORE sense to discuss these issues with CD's of events, club presidents, etc? As I say, how many people out there probably buy a turbine and don't even do more than skim the manual?

I completely agree with you, however, your posts seems directed very strongly towards a manufactures manual, which again, I fail to see what continuing to discuss this in the forum will accomplish.
But again, just my opinion.

RE: safe engine operation.
 

The reps for these engines KNOW the manuals' shortcomings. They, or at least Dave Wilsher (who, like Ali gives superb support to HIS customers but they should not have to make up for serious ommisions on the part of the manufacturer) HAS raised the issue with JetCat and "they are deciding what to do " !! Really !! Point is, nothing seems to be actually being done. So what else CAN be done, highlighting the issue on RCU is at least one way of TRYING to get some action.

I dont think your statement that many people do no more than just skim the manual can possibly be any justification whatsoever, for not providing proper documentation

I will today draft a letter to Manfred Zipperer and see if THAT can get any action.

Now I read, on this forum, that engines are being shipped without ANY manual, eh. gods, what IS going on ?

Anyone think this remotely acceptable ?

Regards,

David Gladwin.