Hello.

Here are my first impression about the new P-160SX.

The box comes with the standard accessory kit including the starting gas tank !!!
As usual, no instruction not even the slightest note about the new SX features...
I fully agree with David on this matter: it is a truly shame that nothing is included here.
I checked online, no manual is suitable for this engine ( ECU 6.00I ). I have used the latest manual + kero start notice for the installation. Lets hope for the best ...

The engine looks very close to the P-120/160SE engines.
The visual differences are the blank plug on top of the casing and the compressor that shows the machining traces.



The compressor looks fantastic:



In fact after positioning the engine in my F-84G I realized that it is about 5 mm longer than the previous P-120SE.
It is also 50 grs heavier.

The standard mount fits perfectly after the usual belt machining around the plug.



I wanted to check in cowling area. First modification here: the cowling screws are torx instead of allen on the 120SE.
Inside the cowling, another change: the rpm sensor is now optical. It uses the cone fastening hole and two laser diodes.



The rest remains the same with the same board shape ( different electronic implantation ) and fuel distribution valve



There is no trace of the kero plug from the front. The maintenance on this component is going to require a return to the factory.

Here are the screens from the boot sequence:







The ECU v6.00I is different from the other versions with new options in the engine limit menu and much more: to be guessed...

I am now finishing the setup in the aircraft and about to do the first engine starts of this engine. We have tried 3 other SX yesterday and everything went right using the standard kero setup ( just a guess...).

Thanks for the pics and info. I have one of these on order.
I thought I read that the internal Kerostart was changeable by the modeler. Guess not.
Do you think that the optical RPM sensor is a weak point or an improvement? I have had issues in the past with RPM sensors on other Jetcat engines (P-70).
Thanks!!

I have had 3 low RPM flameouts on the previous P-120SE due to the Hall Effect speed sensor. I hope that this system will be an improvement.
Let fly the hell out of it and I'll answer in 1 year from now...

First starts.

The new kero start runs extremely smooth. Much smoother than the previous one. The lightup is much more gradual and linear.
Current draw during start: max 15 A
Max normal start temp: 650°c

I did a wet start to check: abort start just at the beginning of the kero light-up.
On the previous version this would end up in a hot ( 850°c or more ) start.
On the SX I got a modest 700°c which proves that the initial kero flow is really minimal.

First run:
The acceleration is very fat, about as fast as the SE version. I did chronometer the acceleration between the two version but the difference is not big.
For me the SE version is already excellent.
The max thrust is impressive for two reason: the thrust generated and the noise.

The thrust is higher than any engine I've had so far ( I didn't check the G-booster 160 in this aircraft yet )
The noise is extremely high. It is obviously coming from the compressor. Even at idle I need some noise protection, where the P-120 SE is like a "whisper".
At full thrust it starts to shake my abdomen. Very impressive. Do not try it in your garden...

Max rpm: 125000
Max EGT: 745°c at 40°c OAT so as advertised...
Max Consumption: 560 ml/min...

Next stage: flight tests for next week-end...

I thought the "SX" model was supposed to have a "faster" acceleration than the "SE" model.

I am sure I had read in the Jet magazine that it was "instantaneous" throttle response.

Don

Guys, there's no such thing as 'instant" in a turbine....several of the full scale turbines I've flown have a full 8-9 seconds from idle to 100%....it's all fadec (computer) controlled so we dont torch a $5 million motor....these models are really no different....you have fuel, fire, air and metal in the mix and they all have to play nice together or u get a meltdown and a big boom.... I hear guys say I have a 2 second spool up....a recip takes 2 seconds.....

now bring that "instant" spoolup turbine to 5,400 ' and 90 degrees F and it's even worse....

I was under the impression that most if not all jetcats had an optical sensor! I know I had a few " Over RPM" on my Knagaroos due to sun light, then JC fixed the problem quickly. This was a few years back.....

What were the thrust #'s???????

As far as "instant" I thought the same thing but did anyone else read the article where it stated "instantaneous" in it?

Don

mee too

The RPM system is the same that JetCat has used for the last 10 years. Optical sensors are the same as those used on the P-80/P-120/original P-160/Titan class motors. Nothing new there as the system works.

The P-60/P-70/P-180/P-200 use a magnetic pick up system that came ot life originally with the P-70 and P-200.

My two new 160SEs have ECU vs 6.0g and H respectively, just below that of the 160 SX. The manual shows pictures of V2. and covers NONE of the SAFETY features of the current engine and ECU , eg, failsafe settings and gas tank drain, part of the LIMITS menu. These latter items were covered in JetCat USA's manual dated December 2002 but STILL nothing in the manuals accompanying engines delivered in the rest of the English speaking world, so far as I can see.

So JetCat dealers, and JetCat Germany, what is being done about it , you have been awfully quiet since I started pushing on this issue ? We can probably live without the knowledge of the finer points of the latest ECUs (although even THEY should be completely covered with new engines' manuals) but these SAFETY aspects should be covered in absolute detail so they can be FULLY understood by EVERY JetCat operator.

How about a fully detailed and up to date manual being published on the internet, by say, next week, now that the European flying season is in full swing ?

Regards,

David Gladwin.

I have to ASSUME that the fail safe in the SE is the same as for the SX? May be some one with an SX can play with his engine and check the FS. And I agree, it should be in the manual, but may be some with an SX can help out here.

Yes the failsafe options available in the SX limits menu are the same than the ones available for the SE.
I'll try to go to the field this afternoon to do a flight or two and check precisely the acceleration delay.
Concerning the speed captors, I've based my assumptions from memory since the SE is at Jetcat factory for speed sensor trouble shooting.
What drove me to this error is that the guys at Jetcat said they had to change the hall effect sensor...

I went to the field and did one engine run-up and range check.

Atmospheric conditions:
OAT 37°c
Pressure 997 mb
Humidity 65%

Bare in mind that these conditions are about as far from ISA as it could be.

In these conditions we have had flameouts on all our engines: P-120SE, P160SE, G-booster 160.

Here is the video of the test:

http://www.geohei.lu/olin/videos/Mod...ion%20test.wmv

First part: acceleration from idle to full. Second part: acceleration from idle to half, then from half to full.
The acceleration from idle to full thrust takes about 6 seconds. The acceleration is not smooth. It sounds like the engine is stalling passing 50% N1.
The 1210SE and 160SE exhibit exactly the same behaviour in these atmospheric conditions and are slightly slower. The G-booster is slightly smoother but has flamed out 3 times on the last flight session...
The acceleration from idle to half takes about 4 seconds and from half to full about 1 second.

On standard atmospheric conditions, I believe that the acceleration from idle to full would take around 5 seconds.

The G-booster seems a bit smoother and faster from these first test. I have no thrust bench, so I cannot compare this characteristic.

The Jetcat P120/160SE Purposely accelrate in stages to keep the engine within the design parameters criteria. Other engines, such as the AMT's accelerate so fast you see the steel nozzle glowing red in day time light!!!!

Try turning down the top rpm on all the engines and see if that stops the flame outs!!!

We have all engines turned down by at least 3000 rpm in the summer including G-boosters.
Similarly idle rpm is going up by at least 3000. We have a lot of "low idle" events...

On the last 120SE I had to tune the idle up to 40000 to see it stabilize around 33000.
This engine is at the factory for this reason. Also it had big gaps during the acceleration. It was getting scary for go-arounds.

Ehab, have a look at the video link. You'll ear that the engine does not accelerate by stages, but rather spools down briefly during acceleration.
This is what made me shake the camera while doing this short video...

For those who want to setup the engine, you'll have to follow the Kerosene plug manual instructions:
http://www.jetcatusa.com/PDFFiles/Ke...anual%20V2.pdf

As well as the general instructions found on the 6.0F ECU manual:
http://www.jetcatusa.com/PDFFiles/In...al%20V6.0F.pdf

Although the engine accessory kit includes a gas tank, DO NOT USE IT and DO NOT FOLLOW THE GAS SETUP INSTRUCTIONS found on the ECU user manual. Similarily, do not get fooled by the "propane" label on the ECU plug rack. Plug the kero start line valve on this location as per the kerosene plug manual...

I am checking the new 6.0I ECU software and will post about the changes and differences that apply to the 6.0F manual soon.

I heard the video. Not being a Jetcat expert, it sounds like compressor stall (starving for air?). The pump voltage was a little low thu!..Since all engines you tested exhibited weird behaviuor, I must assume the high temp/hi humid may have a lot to do with it!!!

You're right. The density altitude is extremely low at the moment.
These atmospheric conditions are very far from the ISA conditions at which the engines are tested.
However the 160SX does give a better throttle response than the 120SE I have previously tested.

i wish you luck with that turbine
you also have luck that you recive all that accsssory that the kit includ
i know some one that recive just the turbine in the box and no accessorey at all.he bought two complet turbines and
he recive one turbine complet kit with all the accessorys and one without.just the turbine
if things will not resolved i will tel that sorey to this forum

Well all Jetcat turbines ARE sold with a complete accessory kit. This was certainly a miss from Jetcat. Your friend should contact the factory...

Here ya go... POST #4 I believe. Read the description carefully. Supposed to be only a single 4mm line to the turbine? ECU Ver 6.3 also? What's up?

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_71...p-160sx/tm.htm

Dave

dear oliver
it was not jet cat turbines
he got 4 jet cat turbines that came 100% with al the accessory
IT IS DIFFERNT TURBINES COMPANY
what do you say people to go to the factorey -that send it direcly to my friend ??????
please advice
he is realy dont know what to do

Then I can't help you much. I have always dealt with Jetcat...