RE: Black Smoke???
 

Todd,


Don't want to state the obvious, but if you mixed the red and blue dye we used with the Skydrol could you get a deep enough purple to accomplish what your client is looking for??

Might be worth a try?

James

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Don't know for sure Todd, but as someone mentioned, it seems like diesel fuel along with oxygen will give you what you need. The problem is getting the oxygen in to the exhaust.

Diesel and Rubber smoke. . .

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SNPVXIGa8s[/youtube]


Although, when tires are burning, they do smoke black, so maybe it has something to do with the temperature. Not sure.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

I've heard, that adding alcohol to burning kerosene will lighten the smoke and adding diesel to it will darken the smoke considerably to the point of it being black, very little to no oxygen is needed to produce this effect, you want to try it and see if it works.

There is a book called "Secrets of Hollywood Special Effects" by Robert McCarthy that has a lot of techniques the pro's use to achieve certain desired effects. I'm sure this is in there as well. ;)

Good Luck

RE: Black Smoke???
 

I've tried diesel. Its just a little more dingy than Super Dri. Not black. I've been working on a formula for colored as others here have. Dye is messy. Recently I tried ink from an inkjet printer because it drys really fast, that didn't work either.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Thanks for the input so far....! Currently looking into the compounds used in producing tires to see if i can find a component within the rubber compound that will work.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

It might be worth checking out the compounds used in producing brakes as well.

Good Luck

RE: Black Smoke???
 

The problem is that "vapor" which is what we use on Super Dri etc is completely different than "smoke". That black comming from the brakes above is smoke not vapor. Smoke is a byproduct of burning, vapor is diffusion of particles. Thats why when our smoke oil catches on fire it doesn't look like smoke anymore. Its all burnt up and when you burn that light oil it doesn't leave much smoke.

Its a complicated matter I am finding out.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Andy
can you clarify for me. are you using Diesel through a smoke injector (i.e. Tams pump) or through the motor as fuel??

I think our F4s would look AWESOME!!! with a thin veil of smoke coming out of her.

anyone have Eddie Week's number to confirm diesel fuel and the after effects it produces.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

True I agree Andy. What about [link=http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/21347655/detail.html]liquid asphalt?[/link] Or a component extracted from it.

I guess if you take a little bit of from all of these sources and mix it all together, it's gotta smoke some kind of color, just keep mixing a little bit of everything in there Todd till it gets darker and darker, then Whalla, a new product from Dreamworks, scale remote control jet exhaust additive![sm=idea.gif]

Reserve yours here now for a discount.:D

Of course, don't forget to add the disclaimer to the outside of the bottle, "Not responsible for what may happen to your, smoke pump, engine pump, turbine or the enviornment after using this product. Fly safe now you hear!" :D;)

It may be difficult Andy, but nothing is impossible, just keep experimenting, you're bound to come up with something, sounds like you may be closer than you think. ;)

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Hey Buck,

Here's a link to Eddie's original post: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_36...tm.htm#3667990

do you know an evoJet Booster factory pilot that might burn a 55 gallon drum of diesel through one to see what the effects are? Sure would be nice to be able to stop at almost any Gas Station and fill up the Jet tanks!

I'm guessing any turbine that is fed diesel for extended periods of time will carbon up faster than kero or Jet-A, but how much faster. I might be willing to go with slightly shorter service intervals if I can have a little black smoke trailing an F-4.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Seems like the least messy way to get colored smoke is to use a colored smoke flare. Would that work for this application? That is what is used by some display teams for colored smoke - especially for smoke coming from the wing tips. The problem of course is when you start it, you can't stop it - like a solid rocket booster...

Bob

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Gary
thanks for the link. I'll read it in a bit but if it would be possible to put a tank or two through it for "the big shows" and not have adverse effects on the motor......man how cool would a little smoke trail look coming out the back of the F4? :D:D

RE: Black Smoke???
 

I was running it through the pump and nozzle. Not the turbine. (i ain't experimentin on my turbine lol). Anyway, I have a new idea. I will let you guys know the outcome if it turns out.

RE: Black Smoke???
 

oki doki, add some ATF fluid to the diesel for a nice thick smoke trail. of course it won't be black as we are all seeking.

incidently, i just fired off an email to AMT USA asking about short term effects of running diesel through the turbine. you know...gotta bring your A-Game to the big Show!!!! :D 180+ days to Mississippi Afterburner......gotta toughen up (imagine Happy Gilmore):D:D

RE: Black Smoke???
 

:D You guys are making me wanna get a jet that smokes; with no afterburner of course. Might just have to get a big Skymaster F4 one day so I can join the Phantom club!;)

Hey Buck,

That F-4 looks kind of ghostly with no smoke trail behind it, guess that's why they call it a Phantom. Or he's going into burner.:D[sm=shades_smile.gif]

Ok, gotta run gents; as you were. ;)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCualAjsWjg[/youtube]

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Dude that was a great Vid!!! we've got to figure out a way to make this smoke!

RE: Black Smoke???
 

I would think a viable solution, though not practical might be to have an onboard oxygen tank with atomizer in the line with the smoke fluid. If the engine is not equipped with a pipe, the flame at the tailcone with the injection of oxygen and fuel will leave a pretty awesome flame, but the result will be a black smoke in the contrail of the aircraft. if the drone is big enough a small pony bottle full of oxygen might be a possibility. Justa thought.....

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Cool discussion

Per Andy Andrews explination that most of our smoke is produced by vaporization, it is pretty easy for us to make white smoke. I don't ever remember seeing black smoke from any full scale vaporization type of smoke systems ie Blue Angels, Thunderbirds... etc. There is colored smoke that uses dyes and such but no black that I can remember seeing, of course maybe it's because they did not try. In any case it seems that most colored vaporization smoke is created using dye.

I'm no expert but from what I have read when we vaporize the smoke fluid it breaks up into very small droplets, not unlike a cloud and it's the small size of the droplets that reflect most of the visble spectrum to make a sort of white reflection.

Now the brown or black smoke out of the F-4 is most likely the product of rich combustion producing excess carbon that shows up as the black smoke. If you have seen a kerosene fireball you will notice black smoke, not a nice scene but you get the picture. So to make black smoke im guessing that we would need a rich combustor in the tail pipe to throw out lots of carbon soot. IE look at the back end of a real F-4

Now our turbines must either be buring too hot, too cold or somewhat effecently to have no smoke. So that's where I ran out of AMA legal ideas when I was thinking of how to do this. Maybe a small non thrust afterburner that burned rich in the tailpipe would do it?

Edit: sorry missed the first part of thread. Looks like a pretty similar conclusion for everyone.

Todd haven’t ever tried it, but if you had a small combustion chamber in back of the turbine fed with a gasoline / diesel mix just below the efflux and you could keep it lit, I wonder if it would produce enough black smoke. Not unlike a kerosene lamp, or Acetylene without Oxygen. I guess you could try straight Acetylene gas fed into a burner but I would be very scared around that rig lol


Aloha

Duke

RE: Black Smoke???
 

wouldn't a compressor bleed air line act in the same way?

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Ok, Here is an idea that I have. Ink creates a huge mess right? How about using "Disappearing Ink"? and mixing it with our regular smoke oil? Don't know if it would work with oil but its worth a try. If a H2o solution is used, I don't think our pumps can work with water, but maybe a water mix? A water friendly pump could be used I guess. Worth an experiment.

How Disappearing Ink Works
.When the ink is sprayed onto a porous material the water in the ink reacts with carbon dioxide in the air to form carbonic acid. The carbonic acid then reacts with the sodium hydroxide in a neutralization reaction to form sodium carbonate. Neutralizaton of the base causes a color change of the indicator and the stain disappears:
Carbon dioxide in the air reacts with water to form carbonic acid:

CO2 + H2O -> H2CO3

The neutralization reaction is sodium hydroxide + carbonic acid -> sodium carbonate + water:

2 Na(OH) + H2CO3 -> Na2CO3 + 2 H2O


http://www.google.com/products?hl=en...ed=0CBcQrQQwAA



What do you think? Could this work?

RE: Black Smoke???
 

I have been experimenting all summer with diesel and additives. the best diesel smoke I had was 1 quart tranny PLUS Lucas additive, and a pint of baby oil in 5 gal. but its still white/blue.. Nothing I tried darkens it up.

The F-4 smoked because of the carbon and the uncontrolled flame ring at the lower temps. In later models the material of the J79 was updated and the temp raised to over 900 C and the smoke went bye bye. it was a light very faint brown. Even when you put smoke systems on full scale jets, they smoke white. The jet forces air into the mixture, and it either burns or vaporizes, but it cannot do an incomplete burn like an internal combustion motor does.

I think dye is it, but I wonder what happens if anti freeze is uses, probably white too... someone take a sqirt bottle and try it in an exhaust plume..

by the way, NEVER use Gasoline in smoke oil. you are asking for big problems... It can burn you to the ground faster than you can realize..just by a few stray drops / splatter..

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Yea man, you know how yall do! (fighter guys everybody, fighter jet jocks!) :D;) I'm sure with everyone working together, we can all make it happen.

Besides, it's because of that nice write-up you had in Contrails, that even got me thinking about getting a big Skymaster F-4, that's a big maaahh.......er! That and it was dad's favorite jet, I'll join the club eventually. [sm=shades_smile.gif]

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Diesel fuel will produce white smoke...
I sent an e-mail to a buddy who was with the Snowbirds ... They used to have different color smoke... The smoke is created by pumping fluid thru a small line to a nozzle about 4 inches behind the tailpipe ... Currently they just use diesel fuel...

RE: Black Smoke???
 

Hi Todd,
Black smoke is soot really, from poor combustion at high temp. Dont think model jet exhaust is hot enough. Some sort of flare with black carbon rubber with a high temperature inner core of a self sustaining material may work.
A regular flare with an "afterburner" can with carbon rubber on the outer wall is an idea...
The Hybrid rockets like used on space ship one uses black carbon rubber with nitrous Oxide. In their case they dont want too much black smoke so the combustion is as complete as possible.
Sorry I cant be of more help but it is an interesting question.
Andre

RE: Black Smoke???
 

anyone tried to dump oil in the exhaust directly behind the turbine wheel like an afterburner instead of in the exhaust stream after the turbine exhaust nozzle. Maybe the Oil will burn and produce a black smoke instead of vaporizing like with a smoke system. Granted you will need an inconel spray nozzle ring. But if the oil does burn (depending on the type of oil) you should get black smoke. That spray nozzle would have to be really close to the turbine wheel thou..... Or just mix some fuel up 20 to 30 percent oil. worth a shot,

Good luck.

Gene