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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
<yawn>
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
It sure is easy to be a Monday morning QB.
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: zac137 It sure is easy to be a Monday morning QB. . . .and this isn't even [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLPC-4Mj3N8]football![/link] over and over and over. . . :D |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: SinCityJets HH, I apologize for my lack of use of BOLD to emphasize my points, however I have seen this in-person by my own wrong doing. One thing I have never understood is why people are so scared to have other people know about their crashes. Heaven forbid someone know that so and so crashed their Viper Jet on landing, or what's his name lost their A-10 due to engine failure, or ol' dude plowed it in during a figure 9. Crashes happen. It's sad, it's expensive, and it's just part of the hobby. No one is calling this guy an idiot, albeit I felt like one when I crashed, but just to nail this point home, when I first crashed my BARF, guess who I blamed......BVM. I told them that a control surface failed in flight, which is what appeared happened to me. I wasn't trying to lie or be deceitful, I really felt an elevator failed in flight, causing this barrel roll to the ground. I claimed this until someone much more knowledgeable than I explained an accelerated (or high-speed) stall. Not only did he explain it, he PROVED it by taking a plane with a high wing loading, making it a little nose heavy, adding in 50% expo, and inducing one before my eyes (at altitude). Since this demo, I have done it myself, on purpose, at altitude. It wasn't enough for me to see it, I wanted to know how to get out of it. Unfortunately, the only answer is altitude, relax the elevator, and altitude. Being really high up doesn't hurt either. Without this demo, I would STILL be flying around at 50% expo on elevator (because it makes me fly really smooth) not concerned about relative wing loading and aircraft limits. These are not digs on the pilot, they are chances for him/her and everyone else reading these threads to learn. If you are flying at a high rate of elevator expo, you are a candidate for this to occur. If you have a nose heavy plane, you are a candidate for this to occur (I am aware of the saying nose heavy planes fly like crap, tail heavy planes fly once.). If you have a plane with a higher than designed wing loading, you are a candidate for this to happen. Now, one last monkey wrench.....temperature will also greatly affect this (Density Altitude). You may do a maneuver on one cool day, and try the EXACT same maneuver, with the same set-up on a hot day and dump the plane right out of it. I just did this last weekend with my Flash. Bottom of a happy face, a little slow on the down side, pulled hard to get up and do the nose and I saw two dips of the wing. Fortunately, the flash is one of the most forgiving sport planes out, and two dips was all I got, but I have done 1000 smiley faces, but in 112 degree weather, I need to be a little more aware of my speed and control surface deflection. This is a sad event, but it is also a chance to learn. Chad I am told I am an idiot just for spending 15g's on my viper, imagine what I am going to feel like when it crashes!!!!!! I should kill myself. hahahahahah Just to venture to this level of flight in the model industry to me is comprable to piloting the space shuttle. It may not have the man power but thats why mistakes tend to happen. You forget something and it bites ya. Your human......He probably made the mistake but I won't flame him for it. I'll rather appreciate the fact by seeing the video and the rebuttle I may have a little more knowlege in my arsenal for piloting my viper. To the video.......I don't know why he chose to loop when the gear was down at such a speed but he did. I would have landed if I felt an itch from the wind. 3 weeks ago I flew my 5th flight on mine and a minute and a half into the flight the entire rudder fin exploded!!! Remarkably , I landed the plane.....but I think its partially due to the planes well design. Other of course is my skill level!!!! Of course.......:) Anyway its a free plane now. The rudder is not so reinforced as I think it should be but they agrred to replace it for free for me so I think I will do a little reinforcement myself. What happened? Even having landed it I am a bit baffled but I tend to lean that I used their 3 hinges instead of 5 robarts. And the top one and bottom one were incorrectly put together at the facory, I should have noticed this. And as for the chum that cheered when it crashed...............I hope he is run over by a sem-truck. Theres no need for it. He just wishes he could fly a plane like that. |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: ViperJet1 I am told I am an idiot just for spending 15g's on my viper, imagine what I am going to feel like when it crashes!!!!!! I should kill myself. hahahahahah And as for the chum that cheered when it crashed...............I hope he is run over by a sem-truck. Theres no need for it. He just wishes he could fly a plane like that. Nice job saving your plane, welcome to RcJets! Bryce :D |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: Springbok Flyer Hi guys, Maybe one of you can suggest what happened here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZpv0O1ubMs .... to end up looking like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3MGph6-6XY Cheers Jan |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
I have a Cermark Viper and I was flying it slow and it did snap but I recovered. At first I thought radio lock up but then I just gave power and it was ok. It also happened on a turn FWIW.
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
I really appreciate all the comments a feedback in this thread. If nothing else, I hope this thread will be a warning to all those who were unaware of what an accelerated stall was, and how they occur before this thread, and a free reminder to all of us that already knew. With most RC pilots not being full-scale pilots, a lot of these concepts are never taught or explained. I have had the honor of meeting some very smart people in this business, much smarter than I. While I can be a little hard-headed, I have learned from these individuals and tried to apply their wisdom.
Let's not be so close minded to the possibility of pilot error. It happens...to ALL OF US. With the advent of 2.4, the old days of running to the crash site with our transmitters held high in the air yelling "lockout!" are over (for the most part). Our systems are stronger and more robust than ever. As one person commented before, 99% of all crashes are pilot error. While that figure MIGHT be a little high, I will say the chances of pilot error are higher than not. I am sorry for the pilot that lost his plane, and thank him for the video (or allowing the video to be posted) so that I and others could have a chance to learn. Finally, to the pilot that lost this plane, in appreciation for the lessons learned by all of us, please contact me with your mailing address and I will send you two free 2300Mah A123's, in any configuration we offer, to help you get started on your next plane. Chad |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
Chad,
What a guy! I am going to send you my address so will have it on file for my A123s. We can always blame Dave for our dumb thumbs. George |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
hahaha, better be a good video with a controversial lesson behind it!
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
I will pay for my batteries and avoid the hard lessons if it is all the same to you guys....
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
I'll get you a video and let RCU take care of the controversy.
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
Chad,
Here ya go. It was a tragic event. The cause is yet to be determined. I think it was the kit mfg or power plant. Please FedEx those batteries to me. George http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJzzSZwKxU4 |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: STKNRUD Chad, Here ya go. It was a tragic event. The cause is yet to be determined. I think it was the kit mfg or power plant. Please FedEx those batteries to me. George http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJzzSZwKxU4 What would you have done if your rug caught fire and burnt your house down? .............I guess we would have never seen that video and it would have been declared an accident to the home owners????? AHHHHHH>>>>>>>>>YEA.... ............ |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: STKNRUD Chad, Here ya go. It was a tragic event. The cause is yet to be determined. I think it was the kit mfg or power plant. Please FedEx those batteries to me. George http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJzzSZwKxU4 THAT was the funniest crap I've seen in a long time. PM me your address and let's see what arrives :) As far as the cause of the crash, if you look a frozen blurry frame at 9 seconds in to it, you will see the paperclip is separating from the aircraft, causing a tail heavy situation. It also looked to me like the plane was taking radio hits on the landing approach, probably caused by the dog 's static electricity emission at the 5 second mark. I definitely did not see the pilot do anything that contributed to the crash and/or resulting fire. Chad |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
Finally, to the pilot that lost this plane, in appreciation for the lessons learned by all of us, please contact me with your mailing address and I will send you two free 2300Mah A123's, in any configuration we offer, to help you get started on your next plane. ....My source tells me that the email HH received was full of crap.... Read more: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_98...#ixzz0ttmg5aag ...Let's not be so close minded to the possibility of pilot error.... Right down to your having called the poor guy who emailed me with details of what he'd found in the wreckage a liar[X(]. And then attacking ME for having been "comical" enough to take the man at his word and pass along the info. Now THAT is what I call being "close minded".[:'(] |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
I definitely did not see the pilot do anything that contributed to the crash and/or resulting fire. George |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
Yes, that's it ... an accelerated stall that was equally due to the tracking of the jet as it went through the loop. As the jet went through the loop it was rolling out on a different heading, which is to the right of where it entered. You can see that the jet had tracked toward the camera as it entered of the bottom of the loop (right wing low), and before the actual stall. (As the jet went through the loop, the pilot unknowingly applied right rudder or aileron, or the crosswind caused the plane to drift off track.) The resulting angle of attack will induce and indicate a loss of lift for that wing. Best solution ... reduce power, release joysticks for a second ... the plane/jet/airflow will stabilize, then pull up smoothly. But a lack of altitude or a moment of panic will not allow you to get out of this situation.
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
Yes, that's it ... an accelerated stall that was equally due to the tracking of the jet as it went through the loop. As the jet went through the loop it was rolling out on a different heading, which is to the right of where it entered. You can see that the jet had tracked toward the camera as it entered of the bottom of the loop (right wing low), and before the actual stall. (As the jet went through the loop, the pilot unknowingly applied right rudder or aileron, or the crosswind caused the plane to drift off track.) The resulting angle of attack will induce and indicate a loss of lift for that wing. Best solution ... reduce power, release joysticks for a second ... the plane/jet/airflow will stabilize, then pull up smoothly. But a lack of altitude or a moment of understandable panic (that brief second when you imagine $10,000 or more about to be destroyed) will not allow you to get out of this situation.
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
I think it just crashed[:o].
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
IMHO the smoke trail angle/radius explains it best. The jet was slow, low and at high angle of attack. The rest is common sense....
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400 Yes, that's it ... an accelerated stall that was equally due to the tracking of the jet as it went through the loop. As the jet went through the loop it was rolling out on a different heading, which is to the right of where it entered. You can see that the jet had tracked toward the camera as it entered of the bottom of the loop (right wing low), and before the actual stall. (As the jet went through the loop, the pilot unknowingly applied right rudder or aileron, or the crosswind caused the plane to drift off track.) The resulting angle of attack will induce and indicate a loss of lift for that wing. Best solution ... reduce power, release joysticks for a second ... the plane/jet/airflow will stabilize, then pull up smoothly. But a lack of altitude or a moment of panic will not allow you to get out of this situation. I'm going to go to the trouble of a long post and explanation, and even a confession, in the hope that another jet (or even a foamie) is not lost on bad, albeit well intended, advice: There are two possible outcomes when ur low, in trouble and pointed and straight down: 1) turn the corner, or 2) hit the ground, right? If hitting the ground does not sound fun and u would rather turn the corner, then u need enuff kinetic energy (speed) to do it. The lower u are, the tighter the required pull, and the more kinetic energy (speed) it takes to make that corner without stalling again... There are two ways to get the speed. Convert the potential energy (altitude) into speed thru the magic of gravity, and/or convert the chemical energy (fuel on board) into kinetic energy (speed) thru the magic of thrust. If ur in trouble (low/slow), u want to assist the gravity magic with the thrust magic to get as much kinetic energy (speed) as possible, as soon as possible, so that u have enuff to make the corner before the ground gets in your way. (Don't u hate it when the ground gets in the way?) Again, I know it's counter-intuitive, but it isn't opinion. It's pure cold scientific fact. It was first explained to me by an F-14 squadron c/o who almost lost one of his pilots while shooting the movie "Final Countdown" Remember the scene where the Tomcat is gunning a zero in a level turn and then rolls over the top and winds up pointed straight down at the water? He damn near died trying to avoid a mid-air with the zero (actually a T-6) after the zero pulled up into him (in violation of what had been breifed before the flight). If he hadn't gone into full burner, immediately, even as he was pointed straight at the water at a VERY low altitude, he'd have died. (In fact, the margin was so close that the Tomcat was kicking up rooster tails as it rounded out the bottom, but that evidence was cut from the "dailys" to protect the pilot and squadron from any investigation) ****[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyjNInIH4Hw]F-14 vid, ffwd to 5:30[/link]**** This principle saved my OWN life in an Su-26M some years later (and some years ago) when after having screwed up and going too many turns before recovering from a flat spin while practicing for an airshow one day, I found myself with damn near no airspeed, pointed purely vertical at the ground and shocked that the ground was so...effing...CLOSE. It was a truly life-threatening screw-up and Oh-Sh_t moment. The only choice was go straight to the firewall and begin converting whatever energy I could scrape together into as many G's as the airplane would give me, feeling the intermittent tickle of stall buffet all the way thru the corner as the ground rushed up to make my aquaintence. I'm here to type this, so I guess it worked out OK. But if I'd relied on gravity alone to give me the energy to make the pull?.............smoking hole. A few onces of gasoline burned in what should have been the last few seconds of my life saved my dumb butt. Fortunately, there is no vid to immortalize my own stupidity [&:] If your model is low, slow, pointed down, and u don't want to buy a new one, then do NOT reduce the power! |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
It looks like a plain old stall. the loop was not big enough and the back side was too small.
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RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: highhorse The other aspects of your theory aside (sorry, crosswinds dont cause airborne aircraft to change heading) , the very worst thing to do is reduce power. I know it's counter-intuitive, but (unless u are already going very fast) even if ur pointed straight at the ground, especially at a low altitude, u want max power NOW. Umm ... crosswinds DO cause a plane to drift from it's intended path. Hence the practice of cross-controlloing the ailerons and rudder during a crosswind landing to maintain track/heading. Wind striking a rudder will cause an aircraft to yaw into the direction of the wind. Because we can't see the wind direction in the video, one can only guess at its speed and direction, or even affect. However, it is clear that the jet was rolling out in a different direction (and with the right wing low) than when it entered the loop. Secondly, the jet wasn't slow. It had enough power and speed at the top of the loop to show that the jet was flying solid in the air. It just encountered high G forces during the rollout that the wing could not overcome since the wing was already low. (air buffeting over the wing). Reducing the angle of attack (allowing all controls to be neutral) and allowing the aircraft to dive for a second or two (if altitude permits) will decrease the G force on the wing and allow lift to be regained (smooth airflow over the wing). Then the pilot can safely pull the nose of the aircraft up, land the plane, and drink heavily for the rest of the day !! If this were a real-life situation, a pilot would have ejected. |
RE: Skymaster Viper ..... unexplained crash??
ORIGINAL: highhorse If ur in trouble (low/slow), u want to assist the gravity magic with the thrust magic to get as much kinetic energy (speed) as possible, as soon as possible, so that u have enuff to make the corner before the ground gets in your way. (Don't u hate it when the ground gets in the way?) Again, I know it's counter-intuitive, but it isn't opinion. It's pure cold scientific fact. Still, I think the model crashed because the canards failed, or maybe it was the flux capacitor, sun-spots, or bad sushi. [:@];):D Regards, Jim |
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