I think it's high time we went to advancement being earned rather than choice or forced due simply to the amount of pilots you beat.

This was brought up , again, on the Nsrca email list and I think it's time we started debating this for implementation in a year or two.

I know Japan and other countries do this and I think it's a good thing.

Each pilot would have to earn his way into the next class. No voluntary advancement.

Several points to ponder, certainly not the only ones we need to look at mind you.

Pilots ability to fly to a certain level of perfection on a consistent basis. 8+ point average over 3 years or 30 contests

Possibly a "Qualifier" contest Sly to determine the pilots ability to fly the next higher class and the judges determine advancement or not. Sort of like the Masters contest.

Amount of contests flown.

Years between competitive flying.

Allow or force a pilot back a class if a certain % of total score is not achieved on a consistent basis.

Anyone from another country here have the procedures used in that country?

Worth a look or a boondoggle?

I believe this would instill pride in the advancement system in "Most" fliers as a goal to be achieved.

Not something to be shunned.

The biggest question is simply, who is going to keep track of it? I would like to see a possible idea of letting someone fly 2 classes in a higher class, and then move back. You only get to test the waters once, but at least let them try it and figure out that maybe they made a mistake. Too often people jump in and move up and and realize they are over their head and can't go back. If you let someone test the waters, and then go back, you would eliminate a lot of this.

Arch

In the world of computers today and given we all use them to score contests now I'd "think" it would be rather easy to compile into a database.

http://www.mini-iac.com/Portals/0/Re...pilot_187.html

See the link above. IMAC does a GREAT job of capturing every contestents scores and inputing into their website for all to see. You can see individual maneuver scores for all pilots, every sequence, every contest. The CD sents the results to the Regional Director and they are input into the system. With this example, it would not be hard to analyze the data for a system like Mastertech is advocating.

Thanks,
Jim W.

I believe any pilots ability to fly a high score on a consistent basis as a far better judge of his abilities than how many people you happen to beat at a contest.

This would allow the perennial sand bagger to be "forced" to move up and the casual flier or a guy that stays in the middle of the pack to go where his abilities suggest he be.

We can have a forced advancement and a "try out" for advancement I'd think.

Lets at least look at it and debate it and see if it's something we might want to do.

Winning a national championship should equal a forced advancement IMHO. Maybe even the top 3 places.

I'm interested in seeing how the 'try out' would work. My scores average close to 8, maybe 7.5, flying Sportsman. I want to move to intermediate, but I get my butt kicked when I try the schedule. Probably depends on who's definition of 'but kick' you go by though; I'd probably get a zero or two on some rounds, and lots of 4-6 scores in intermediate (my guess). Probably forcing myself into the intermediate class would force me to practice, and learn where I'm making mistakes. Might improve rather quickly, might struggle, who knows?

Wow, you guys get sandbaggers? Where's the fun in being a big fish in a small pond?!?


Joe, just get in there and move up, If you're getting those kind of scores consistently it's time for a new schedule and a new learning curve..


I thought most of us were in the hobby for the challenge,aren't we?

Seems like some people like to stay in the lower classes to keep winning there, I mean "all" lower classes, I think by doing that they also discourage new or advancing people who wants to move up but cannot jump over this pilots.

Speaking from personal experience... You are doing yourself a disservice by not challenging yourself. I flew Sportsman for 2 years. I needed to, but seeing what I saw at the D4 finals most of the sportsman pilots were doing a great job and would be better served moving to Intermediate. Also with the change in the sequence, this years Int guys will be learning a new seguence along with new Int Pilots.
RC

I would think the "System" would move those that are clearly ready to make the jump through normal contest flying. It could also allow those who "Think" they're ready to try the next class and see. If the judging panel disagrees then they can not move up yet. If they do agree then the pilot is awarded his "Masters" badge, or whatever class it happens to be.

The Japanese do this and you see the Beaming faces when they're handed their "Certificate" It's a far better achievement than winning a contest. Peers telling you that you fly well enough to jump up to the next level has to be inspiring.

Imagine Arch, Chip or AJ handing you your advancement certificate and telling you "You're ready man, go for it".

Many contests we've seen guys clearly way in over their head in a class simply because they've not flown in a long time or shouldn't have been in that class to begin with.

We also see many pilots "Hang out" in a class due to the fear of the next class or just to collect "iron".

The rules should allow forced advancement and demotion.

I understand telling a guy he just can't cut it in Masters and he needs to move back to Advance will be hard for some to take but I suspect more would be glad to move back.

Joe,

From what I saw last weekend, you are ready to move up. All of the guys flying sportsman could easily move to Intermediate. It is going to be a challenge, but it is supposed to be. If you moved right into Intermediate and were flying 10's off the bat, then you would be way ahead of the curve. I don't think you'll have any trouble once you go through it a few times, especially since you have "help" in that area to fly with you and coach you.

Arch

A good coach is, IMHO, the best single thing you can have to improve your flying. Practicing the same bad habits only leads to bad habits.

Mastertech, is there a large problem in your area with guys being over their heads in their current class? From what I've seen, by the end of the season there are a lot of pilots nearly too good for their class.
I do think a single contest try out might be a good idea, but there's nothing keeping you from doing that in practice.

My move to Intermediate after three Sportsman contests last year was a big challenge but I'm glad I did it.

Scott

Scott,

It's not many but it does happen.

The reverse is a larger fact however. Guys hanging around a class they shouldn't be.

The real point of all this, IMHO, is to make the jump to the next class something to be extremely proud of.

A goal if you will.

It shouldn't be taken lightly and should require a certain amount of skill demonstrated to a panel of judges.

If you want to jump to the next class, prove you've mastered the skills required for your current class.

I'm hoping some guys from countries that do this will chime in and tell us how they do it.

I think a skill derived class mobility would be welcomed. Given ebbs-n-flows in life and practice time, some years we can be competitive and some years we are not. I think everyone deserves to fly in a class that they can be happy in, and be competitive for a trophy from time to time as well.
Jim W.

Surprisingly, Australia is leading America on a very workable promotion system. The current national average is 436 and promotion percentages are worked out from there. See attached Australian rules.

The promotion percentages are:

Sportsman 43%
Advanced 70%
Expert 80%
FAI 100%

Regards,
Jason.

The Aussie system in a nutshell uses your raw scores for the first 4 rounds calculated against the national average for Aussie F3A raw scores.

http://www.australianpatternassociat...au/index2.html

It doesn't matter if you come first, last or if there's 1 competitor or 100 in your class, if your average raw score for the first 4 rounds is high enough you earn a "promotion point". Earn 3 of those in any 12 months and you find yourself promoted to the next class.

It's an easy enough system to sandbag but if that's your game you'll find a way around most other systems.

It has pluses and minuses like any system, if the judges go too easy on you then you'll "earn" a promotion point, if the weather it bad then you won't get a point even though you probably did earn it. A DNF in any of the first 4 rounds blows your point away, but if you're desperate enough to get a butt kicking you can jump up to the next class anyway.

Tim,

I've always thought this was a good idea... however, implementing it would require major coordination between all the scoring programs to send an extract in a particular format to a central repository. We actually had a couple of guys very interested in doing this and did start a project to see if it was possible. The NSRCA can always come up with a file layout that all scoring programs adhere to when creating their extracts so that we can keep track of these scores in a database. Keeping track of them and coming up with a formula and posting the results is the easy part - the hard part is the implementation.

We can do a pilot on this if there is truly interest in going forward with this... as far as I know there are only 2 scoring programs in use throughout the USA - Gene Maurice's and Gordon Anderson's (we use his in D7 and D8). I've talked with Gordon and he said that creating an extract file is easy enough...

G'day Derek,

Why reinvent the wheel? Possibly contact the APA to see if the Australian scoring system could be used over there. After each comp the CD e-mails a file containing all the scores to the national CD. The scoring system we use runs in MS Access and I believe it was created by Glenn Burgdorf. I don't think there would be an issue with sharing the software so long as it's not used for profit.


Regards,
Jason.

Derek this could solve part of the process.

I still would like to instill pride in the advancement process, a Milestone if you will.

I'd also think placing in the top 3 at the Nats would mean an automatic advancement.

Moving to the next class is supposed to be a challenge and one to overcome.

There may be pride in moving up.....but not in moving down.
Flying Pattern is enough of a challenge as it is without having to deal with something like this.
People dont like to be 'forced' to do something against their will.....besides, there is an established way to voluntarily move down.

Dave

So, with that in mind. If someone gets older, or just doesnt have time to fly, we should make the patterns easier for them, rather than them move back to a sequence that challenges them, instead of their current sequence which may be harder than they can handle? We punish the others, so that someone who shouldnt be flying a certain pattern, can still fly that sequence, without hurting their pride? That doesnt make sense to me. With that rational we would be building sequences so that the last place guy can fly a sequence, rather than challenging the others in the same class.

Arch

Bingo!

Bingo yourself Tony......

Arch...you don't seem to understand what I said....all I said was..."there is an established way to voluntarily move down."
I don't think anyone should be "forced" to move in either direction by establishing some additional rule.
I never said anything about "punish others" either.
At least I have the guts not to be anonymous and to voice my views.
There are probably others out there who feel the same way as I do but are too timid to say anything.
After all....not too many peanut gallery guys like me are going to get into this kind of a discussion with many of the top pilots in the USA.
Tony...I wholeheartedly understand why you dont fly FAI anymore.....one of the things I like about you is your willingness to say why.

I believe there is a proposal now up for the Contest Board vote, in fact they have probably already voted, on changing the wording of Must Advance in the rulebook to Should Advance. It's a small change but means there would no longer be mandatory advancement. I think it's a good idea.