Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

First half of my rolls looks great. Second half I really struggle to maintain constant rate (usually speeds up) and the plane yaws severely off to the side (I think to the left).

Generally (meaning always) I roll using right aileron, and I use my rudder.

I don't have my stick plane on hand and I haven't practiced rolling the opposite direction enough to really analyze this myself, so I figured it would be fun to talk about.

What is going on?

Thanks!

wagen017

I am working on my rolls now and basicly your timing is out of sync so you still hold a bit of elevator while you should have only rudder etc.

I found a perfect way to excersize this is to fly 4 point rolls to left and right. While your at it, also roll right and left so you don't learn it yourself only one way. Once you have the 4 point rolls correct, your normal roll and slow roll are perfect.

Volkert

ArchNemesis

Hey Joe,

I got to watch you fly a little down in Cincy. We should have worked on it then, but first and foremost is TOOMUCHrudder. The Wind S, and most of the current wide body, large side area planes require very little rudder to maintain heading during a roll. You were sort of corkscrewing your roll. The rest is timing. You're either getting into the rudder early, or hanging on too long. If you're yawing left while rolling right from inverted then you're likely getting into the rudder too early. MORElikely though is that you're getting into down elevator too early and pushing yourself left as you approach inverted. Hard to say without watching you though.

Give Bob Pannell or Dave Johnstone a shout and have them go fly with you. Someone watching can help you fix that very quickly.

Russmall

Joe, The two horizontal rolls has been the most difficult thing about the intermediate seqence for me to learn. It's all about timing on rudder & elevator. The only way I was able to learn to do it correctly was by practicing it over and over on my simulator. Now, I find myself using rudder inputs on all of my rolls, even half rolls, without even thinking about it. When you get the timing correct, the rolls really start to look nice. RS

wagen017

and once you have your 4-point rolls and rolls (slow and normal) under control, move on to 8-point rolls. Is really cool and prepares you well for FAI/F3A-A.

Volkert

underdw

My Feedback: (2)

In addition to what other folks have said, I find that a lot of my "students" are using transmitter sticks that are too soft and too short.
Granted it's a preference, but I firmly believe I get better resolution and less accidental cross-inputs with longer, stiffer sticks.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Thanks for all the advice, it all sounds good. I'll work on everything mentioned above, including switching to the stiffer springs which I've been meaning to do.

Jon Wold

The first 1/4 of a roll requires opposite rudder (right aileron, left rudder), for the third 1/4 of the roll you apply rudder in the same direction as the roll - right aileron, right rudder. This causes the roll to speed up. You need to relax the roll rate using aileron for the final 3/4-4/4 of the roll. And yes, the amount of rudder is easy to overdo. Try rolling without rudder and then gradually applying tiny amounts of rudder until you don't loos any altitude. With modern planes you can roll pretty slowly using just a touch of up-elevator when inverted without loosing any altitude.

wagen017

that's is why I suggested flying 4 point rolls. Fly nice long ones. That way you learn how much rudder and elevator you need to apply. Once you got the hang of it you make it a roll and it comes naturally.

It of course helps if before that you have trimmed your airplane properly. Your plane should be able to fly a straight knife-edge left to right and right to left, both with cockpit and with undercarriage towards you.

Volkert

bjr_93tz

Stiff springs? I just can't be convinced of that. There's probably a million people will swear by them, but if you need stiffer springs to stop unwanted stick movements then you should just stop putting in unwanted stick movements.

I'm flying a 14MZ with stock springs and sticks, an Oxai Aries (fully digital) with recomended throws and no expo on anything. You shouldn't need the thumbs of Hercules to make anything happen with your plane. That being said, I've rarely worked a day's hard labour in my life so I've still got "girlie" hands, if I had the meathooks of a bricklayer it might be different.

Sit down with your plane and fly the sequence on the ground, it'll cost you nothing but the charge in your flight batteries and learn to operate one surface at a time with nothing else twitching and carrying on. If you've spent years relying on the stiff springs to hold the stick steady while operating the elevator, when you're "off-centre" then you got nothing to help you.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I don't really think the springs are going to make me fly better, I just like the feel of them. I do practice surface movements on the ground and think I do a fairly decent job.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Stiff springs can and do make a different. For guys who get nervous when flying they eliminate the unwanted movements associated with nerves. I also like them as they allow me to run very little expo as I have to push the stick where I want. Other guys fly without them, but I've flown them for years and really like them. As Mark said, you are probably using too much rudder. The new wide body fuses need very little rudder. Start with just rolling, using elevator only when inverted. Get that down, then you can start to add rudder.

Arch

mdjohnson

Hi Joe

Four point rolls............practice them until you are sick of it. Then in the opposite direction. There is a cadence when you are doing this and when you get comfortable with the four points (and keeping it level and straight) just keep the aileron into it and do the same stick movements. Counting out loud can help as well as you do each segment. I agree with the rest that you probably have too much rudder in the rolls. I had to dial down the rudder travel in normal flight mode and then things got a lot smoother with the Wind 110. I use three flight modes. Normal, for most flying. Second mode is for stall turns and it is as much rudder as you can get with normal aileron and elevator, then the third is snap mode which is normal rudder, normal elevator but as much aileron as you can get............wink, wink. I don't know if this is the standard for everyone but it works for me. I program the flight modes on the three position swich above the throttle on the JR 9303. That way I can still input elevator and aileron as I flip between modes.

Cheers

MJ

Lnewqban

Your plane may have some rudder coupling with roll and yaw that works against you during the second half of the roll, when you reverse the position of the rudder stick.

Check this article out:

http://www.modelflying.co.uk/news/article.asp?a=6894

jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Joe,
You're overthinking the problem grasshopper. Unless the plane is VERY nose heavy you should be able to pull off the 2 rolls in the Intermediate schedule without rudder. Don't get me wrong, YES it's important to learn how to use the rudder when you roll. There's a time and place for everything though. I'll bet that you can pull it off very nicely with just a blip of elevator as long as your roll rate isn't incredibly slow. Try that before you go nuts. You can always practice slow rolls and point rolls if you want to learn the proper technique (you need to use the rudder here) but for now just solve the problem without adding more complexity. I was going through the same thing as you before the NATs in 2006 and someone gave me the advice that I just gave you. It worked for me then and it will probably work for you now. Give it a try.

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

And I thought horizontal rolls were hard - just started trying the full roll on the stall turn and am getting killed [&o]

Does a vertical rolling manuever get rudder inputs? Just to correct for wind or anything else?

Thanks,

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Joe,

You should not need any inputs on a vertical roll, except aileron when going up.

Arch

wagen017

should be straightforward as Arch writes. What exactly goes wrong?

Volkert

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Was having bad trouble with plane veering off, almost unrecoverable (meaning to save the maneuver, not the plane).

Shifted CG back a bit today and increased the roll rate a hair, and didn't see any real problems other than my poor skills

Still need a lot of work on the horiz. rolls, but less rudder and shifted CG seems to be helping.

shannah

My Feedback: (5)

You may not be entering the vertical pull with wings level. Try pulling then just do a 1/4 roll. Is it straight? If not then you probably have your outer wing low, that's pretty common.

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

Joe, my early runs through the new sequence have shown me that it really demands wings level and rudder skills, more than in the previous Intermediate pattern.
I think we'll all be better pilots for it.
Scott

wagen017

BTW, I would be careful with moving your CG around based on rolls that don't work....If your CG is good, it is good. Don't mess with it. Try the usual checks (climb with 45 degree angle, half roll and left/right knife edge) but that should be it.

Volkert

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

If you think wings not level messes up your stall turn wait til you see what it does to your Top Hat with 1/4 rolls at the end of the box, lol.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

All that is actually better with 'new' CG. Needs less KE mix, holds 45 upline better.

It's tough with 3 different sets of batteries (weight and shape).

wagen017

then you did good!

If you go straight up and the plane veers off to the left or right you might want to check if
- your aileron travel (right/left) is identical both up and down
- if it is, maybe you need differential.

Volkert