Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
10-22-2010 | 07:28 AM
#1
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Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Hi everyone; I was checking out DLE engines family (I was never interested on gas..) and I get shocked about DLE weitgh/power ratio.
DLE 20 weigths less than an OS120III (pumped version) but runs a bigger propeller; about 150 more grams ahead is the DLE 30 spining up to 20" prop.
Does anyone cosidered taht as a "valid/cheaper" option to the expensive electrics or hungry 4Str. glows? I did not see enything...
Comments wellcome.
Regards
Guille
DLE 20 weigths less than an OS120III (pumped version) but runs a bigger propeller; about 150 more grams ahead is the DLE 30 spining up to 20" prop.
Does anyone cosidered taht as a "valid/cheaper" option to the expensive electrics or hungry 4Str. glows? I did not see enything...
Comments wellcome.
Regards
Guille
10-22-2010 | 09:02 AM
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
You may want to check this link: http://www.vit.or.jp/~tomo/gami/chai...chaina103.html
It seems they have a DLE 30 powered 2x2 F3A plane (the "Monolog"), there is also another electric powered
It seems they have a DLE 30 powered 2x2 F3A plane (the "Monolog"), there is also another electric powered
10-22-2010 | 09:46 AM
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From: San Francisco - Córdoba - ARGENTINA
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Hola Guille:
Yo he estado pensando en esa solución...pero no termina de convencerme
Un compañero de mi club tiene un Sukoi (bastante más chico que un F3A) y su performance vertical no me convence.....
De todas maneras habrÃ*a que probar a ver qué pasa.....es tentador porque son motores baratos de comprar y volar con nafta es mucho mas económico que glow o eléctrico
Saludos
Mario[sm=confused.gif]
Yo he estado pensando en esa solución...pero no termina de convencerme
Un compañero de mi club tiene un Sukoi (bastante más chico que un F3A) y su performance vertical no me convence.....
De todas maneras habrÃ*a que probar a ver qué pasa.....es tentador porque son motores baratos de comprar y volar con nafta es mucho mas económico que glow o eléctrico
Saludos
Mario[sm=confused.gif]
10-22-2010 | 10:03 AM
#5
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Around 4 years ago I got the chance to install a gas engine (zdz 40) in the Abbra. The Abbra is very light. In that time, the weight with this set up was over 11 lbs by 3-4 oz. I flew the plane and I think gas powered is feasible only for lower classes. I agree that vertical performance won't be enought for the higher classes or FAI-F3A. Here is a picture with the ZDZ 40.
En espannol
Hace 4 annos approximadamente, tuve la oportunidad de installar el motor de gasolina ZDZ 40 en el Abbra. El Abbra es muy liviano. En aquella oportunidad el modelo peso mas de 5 kg. El sobrepeso fue de 0.085 kg - 0.11 kg. Yo vole el avion y pienso que modelos de patron que usen gasolina son factible unicamente en las primeras categorias. Estoy de acuerdo que la potencia no sera suficiente para maniobras verticales en las classes superiores o FAI-F3a. Aqui les mando una foto.
En espannol
Hace 4 annos approximadamente, tuve la oportunidad de installar el motor de gasolina ZDZ 40 en el Abbra. El Abbra es muy liviano. En aquella oportunidad el modelo peso mas de 5 kg. El sobrepeso fue de 0.085 kg - 0.11 kg. Yo vole el avion y pienso que modelos de patron que usen gasolina son factible unicamente en las primeras categorias. Estoy de acuerdo que la potencia no sera suficiente para maniobras verticales en las classes superiores o FAI-F3a. Aqui les mando una foto.
10-22-2010 | 12:54 PM
#6
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Thank you Vbortone y gracias Mario; SO far the most probable configuration is a DLE30 on a VERY LIGH airplane.
Let's go ahead with the thread...
Un abrazo Mario; cuando vuelva a Arg. paso por S. Fco!!!! QUE HERMOSO CLUB!!!! El mejor que conoci!!!
Let's go ahead with the thread...
Un abrazo Mario; cuando vuelva a Arg. paso por S. Fco!!!! QUE HERMOSO CLUB!!!! El mejor que conoci!!!
10-22-2010 | 07:05 PM
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From: Silverdale,
WA
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
There is a long thread dedicated to running a Syssa 30cc engine in pattern planes here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9237216/tm.htm
The DLE-30 is roughly similar in weight and power to the Syssa engine.
Personally I am contemplating swapping out my YS 1.20NC for a piped DLE-20 in a light older pattern plane (~10#), because the cost of fuel for the YS is so high.
The other benefits to gas besides price are: 1) gas engines are significantly smoother at idle and through transition than 4-stroke nitro engines, 2) if tuned right gas engines are EXTREMELY reliable in the air even at very low idle settings and are not as prone to deadstick.
The reliability issue alone is a biggie for me, as I fly my plane from a small grass strip and if I don't line up the landing just right it is very easy to rip out the retracts. Deadsticks are pretty scary at this field as there is only one shot to hit it. Too slow and it is in the trees somewhere. Too fast and it plows off the runway into the bushes. Either will likely destroy the plane.
The DLE-30 is roughly similar in weight and power to the Syssa engine.
Personally I am contemplating swapping out my YS 1.20NC for a piped DLE-20 in a light older pattern plane (~10#), because the cost of fuel for the YS is so high.
The other benefits to gas besides price are: 1) gas engines are significantly smoother at idle and through transition than 4-stroke nitro engines, 2) if tuned right gas engines are EXTREMELY reliable in the air even at very low idle settings and are not as prone to deadstick.
The reliability issue alone is a biggie for me, as I fly my plane from a small grass strip and if I don't line up the landing just right it is very easy to rip out the retracts. Deadsticks are pretty scary at this field as there is only one shot to hit it. Too slow and it is in the trees somewhere. Too fast and it plows off the runway into the bushes. Either will likely destroy the plane.
10-23-2010 | 07:01 AM
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From: St.Clairsville,
OH
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
I am in the process of breaking in a Syssa right now well anyway I have 1.5 gal through it and it is getting better everyflight. Check out the Syssa thread right here on the pattern forum and read for yourself. I flew it yesterday and am planning on burning another $1.00 worth of fuel(gasoline) today. The motor turns pattern size props better than my OS160 at 1/10th of fuel costs.
Arch Stafford was a little skepticle as to the proficiency of the Syssa untill he saw MTK fly Masters with it at Coningham this year.Cmoulder also flew one there in Int. We have 2 at our field and both are currently in Ultra RC Evolutions for trial and break in. The power is there and the old beat up Evo still makes weight. I am getting through the new Int sequence twice on a ten ounce tank with a couple of extra manouvers and still have plenty of reserve fuel.
The motor is rear exaust and rear carb and fits neatly under the cowl. An OS140 header is a dead fit with the holes drilled 1 size larger. ES makes a pipe for the motor. Well anyway, there are quite a few of us trying to find a viable option to the expensive set ups but still want good performance.
The thread is very complete and there is even a Cookbook constructed where most of the bumps and bruises have been ironed out for us. Check it out!
Best to you,
Rick
Arch Stafford was a little skepticle as to the proficiency of the Syssa untill he saw MTK fly Masters with it at Coningham this year.Cmoulder also flew one there in Int. We have 2 at our field and both are currently in Ultra RC Evolutions for trial and break in. The power is there and the old beat up Evo still makes weight. I am getting through the new Int sequence twice on a ten ounce tank with a couple of extra manouvers and still have plenty of reserve fuel.
The motor is rear exaust and rear carb and fits neatly under the cowl. An OS140 header is a dead fit with the holes drilled 1 size larger. ES makes a pipe for the motor. Well anyway, there are quite a few of us trying to find a viable option to the expensive set ups but still want good performance.
The thread is very complete and there is even a Cookbook constructed where most of the bumps and bruises have been ironed out for us. Check it out!
Best to you,
Rick
10-23-2010 | 10:58 PM
#9
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
I am quite interested in hearing how well gassers are working in pattern models. I have been flying IMAC for 10 years the past 3 in unlimited. Last year I made the decision to downsize from a 170cc powered 40% airplane to a 50cc 33% airplane. I chose the Laser 200 because I knew the design could be built lightly. The result was a 96" span airplane that weighs a tad over 15# powered with a DA 50 and stock muffler. I was concerned about the power as IMAC has power hungry sequences. I had to adjust my piloting style some but the airplane makes it through the unlimited sequences just fine.
As for pattern, I am currently building a 2x2m pattern airplane off the laser design. My intent is to power it with a DL30 and cannister setup. I can't imagine an 11# airplane running a decent 30cc not having strong performance.
As for pattern, I am currently building a 2x2m pattern airplane off the laser design. My intent is to power it with a DL30 and cannister setup. I can't imagine an 11# airplane running a decent 30cc not having strong performance.
10-24-2010 | 10:11 PM
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From: Randolph,
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
My intent is to power it with a DL30 and cannister setup.
10-24-2010 | 10:34 PM
#11
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie
As for pattern, I am currently building a 2x2m pattern airplane off the laser design. My intent is to power it with a DL30 and cannister setup. I can't imagine an 11# airplane running a decent 30cc not having strong performance.
As for pattern, I am currently building a 2x2m pattern airplane off the laser design. My intent is to power it with a DL30 and cannister setup. I can't imagine an 11# airplane running a decent 30cc not having strong performance.
Who makes tuned cans for the 30 cc gassies? How heavy are they? Are they readily available?
10-24-2010 | 10:55 PM
#12
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie
I am quite interested in hearing how well gassers are working in pattern models.
I am quite interested in hearing how well gassers are working in pattern models.
The new YDAero 38cc looks promising if they can deliver the weight and mid range torque they keep talking about. I hope it isn't all just hype. Price is on par with the others.
Mintor also made a small gassie, 37 cc as I recall, at a really good weight. Pricey compared to the small gassies but much less than a YS170!!
BUT, Carb location on that engine killed it for pattern work
10-24-2010 | 11:06 PM
#13
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
NJRCFLYER2 The cowl on the airplane I am building is large enough that the engine will be mounted at an angle that will allow a strait header and cannister set up to run down the fuse between the radio plate and the landing gear plate. I have found the header/cannister setup on Ebay and looks to be a KS knockoff. For 60.00 I feel I would give it a shot. If it dosen't work then I stil have enough room to install an ES pipe.
Matt, I did take a look at the SAP180. I read through the thread here and pretty much came to the conclusion that it wasn't really what I was looking for. It appears that the stroke/bore and timing lend the engine to more of a high RPM operation then I am interested in. The airplane I am building is pretty much a 33% Laser with downsized wings and tail. The cowl is fairly large for a 2x2m pattern ship. As a result I feel that I really need an engine that will swing a 19-20" prop in the 8500 RPM range. The other thing that I was not too keen on is the choke setup on the SAP. Not really a big deal but it would mean having the choke activation rod either come out the top or bottom of the cowl. On the DL I would be able to come out the front the same as I have done with the DA 50.
I do value opinions so by all means if my information is lacking I would like to hear from those with more experience than myself.
Matt, I did take a look at the SAP180. I read through the thread here and pretty much came to the conclusion that it wasn't really what I was looking for. It appears that the stroke/bore and timing lend the engine to more of a high RPM operation then I am interested in. The airplane I am building is pretty much a 33% Laser with downsized wings and tail. The cowl is fairly large for a 2x2m pattern ship. As a result I feel that I really need an engine that will swing a 19-20" prop in the 8500 RPM range. The other thing that I was not too keen on is the choke setup on the SAP. Not really a big deal but it would mean having the choke activation rod either come out the top or bottom of the cowl. On the DL I would be able to come out the front the same as I have done with the DA 50.
I do value opinions so by all means if my information is lacking I would like to hear from those with more experience than myself.
10-25-2010 | 02:54 AM
#14
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
So; up to now we have the following candidates on the list:
DLE-30 and 20 for smaller plane
Syssa SAP180
MVVS 135 (26CC) (??)
ZDZ 40 (Isn't too big?)
Also, can anybody post some comment about the new Saito Four stroke gasser...?
DLE-30 and 20 for smaller plane
Syssa SAP180
MVVS 135 (26CC) (??)
ZDZ 40 (Isn't too big?)
Also, can anybody post some comment about the new Saito Four stroke gasser...?
10-25-2010 | 12:15 PM
#15
Senior Member
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie
NJRCFLYER2 The cowl on the airplane I am building is large enough that the engine will be mounted at an angle that will allow a strait header and cannister set up to run down the fuse between the radio plate and the landing gear plate. I have found the header/cannister setup on Ebay and looks to be a KS knockoff. For 60.00 I feel I would give it a shot. If it dosen't work then I stil have enough room to install an ES pipe.
Matt, I did take a look at the SAP180. I read through the thread here and pretty much came to the conclusion that it wasn't really what I was looking for. It appears that the stroke/bore and timing lend the engine to more of a high RPM operation then I am interested in. The airplane I am building is pretty much a 33% Laser with downsized wings and tail. The cowl is fairly large for a 2x2m pattern ship. As a result I feel that I really need an engine that will swing a 19-20'' prop in the 8500 RPM range. The other thing that I was not too keen on is the choke setup on the SAP. Not really a big deal but it would mean having the choke activation rod either come out the top or bottom of the cowl. On the DL I would be able to come out the front the same as I have done with the DA 50.
I do value opinions so by all means if my information is lacking I would like to hear from those with more experience than myself.
NJRCFLYER2 The cowl on the airplane I am building is large enough that the engine will be mounted at an angle that will allow a strait header and cannister set up to run down the fuse between the radio plate and the landing gear plate. I have found the header/cannister setup on Ebay and looks to be a KS knockoff. For 60.00 I feel I would give it a shot. If it dosen't work then I stil have enough room to install an ES pipe.
Matt, I did take a look at the SAP180. I read through the thread here and pretty much came to the conclusion that it wasn't really what I was looking for. It appears that the stroke/bore and timing lend the engine to more of a high RPM operation then I am interested in. The airplane I am building is pretty much a 33% Laser with downsized wings and tail. The cowl is fairly large for a 2x2m pattern ship. As a result I feel that I really need an engine that will swing a 19-20'' prop in the 8500 RPM range. The other thing that I was not too keen on is the choke setup on the SAP. Not really a big deal but it would mean having the choke activation rod either come out the top or bottom of the cowl. On the DL I would be able to come out the front the same as I have done with the DA 50.
I do value opinions so by all means if my information is lacking I would like to hear from those with more experience than myself.
Both will swing 19-20 props, just not much pitch. I tried 19x8 and 19x10 MDK Eng Hybrid props and both of these were turned well by SAP180. Both were noisy by pattern standard.
If you want to turn 19x12 or 20x12, the ZDZ40cc is really the only option available today. Hopefully with the YDAero coming to market in the next couple months, it may be another option worth consideration.
Good luck. I am pleased to see an IMAC'er trying this game out with the smaller gassies available today.
10-25-2010 | 12:18 PM
#16
Senior Member
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Oh yeah, one more thing. Definitely check out Ed Alt's (Tech Aero Designs) Ignition Battery Eliminator. This is probably a must have item for pattern; it saves 4-6 ozs of second battery weight.
10-26-2010 | 01:37 AM
#17
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Checked the ZDZ-40: it weights 1233 grams (or 2 pounds and 11.5 Oz) w/o muffler; Isn't a little bit heavy for a 2x2 pattern?
Anyway, it's the cheapest + more powerfull power plant available it seems...
Anyway, it's the cheapest + more powerfull power plant available it seems...
10-26-2010 | 01:46 AM
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From: Randolph,
NJ
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Checked the ZDZ-40: it weights 1233 grams (or 2 pounds and 11.5 Oz); Isn't a little bit heavy for a 2x2 pattern?
The SAP-180 makes a very good replacement for any 2C glow engine out there, but you do need to get creative with the engine mount. Matt posted a lot of info on how to make your own mount. It would also be possible to take something like a Budd Mount and just put standoffs on it, or you could probably get Merle Hyde to make you a custom mount with standoffs.
10-26-2010 | 01:58 AM
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From: Randolph,
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
It would also be possible to take something like a Budd Mount and just put standoffs on it, or you could probably get Merle Hyde to make you a custom mount with standoffs.
10-26-2010 | 09:42 AM
#20
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2
I forgot to mention that a nose ring is essential for the Budd Mount, but can be optional with Matt's mount, or even with a Hyde mount if you specify that requirement when you talk to Merle. For a nose ring to work, you need to get around the Hall sensor. Bob Moulder made his own nose ring.
I forgot to mention that a nose ring is essential for the Budd Mount, but can be optional with Matt's mount, or even with a Hyde mount if you specify that requirement when you talk to Merle. For a nose ring to work, you need to get around the Hall sensor. Bob Moulder made his own nose ring.
Go the following link http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10094284
10-26-2010 | 09:50 AM
#21
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: guille2006
Checked the ZDZ-40: it weights 1233 grams (or 2 pounds and 11.5 Oz) w/o muffler; Isn't a little bit heavy for a 2x2 pattern?
Anyway, it's the cheapest + more powerfull power plant available it seems...
Checked the ZDZ-40: it weights 1233 grams (or 2 pounds and 11.5 Oz) w/o muffler; Isn't a little bit heavy for a 2x2 pattern?
Anyway, it's the cheapest + more powerfull power plant available it seems...
10-26-2010 | 09:58 AM
#22
Senior Member
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: guille2006
Checked the ZDZ-40: it weights 1233 grams (or 2 pounds and 11.5 Oz) w/o muffler; Isn't a little bit heavy for a 2x2 pattern?
Anyway, it's the cheapest + more powerfull power plant available it seems...
Checked the ZDZ-40: it weights 1233 grams (or 2 pounds and 11.5 Oz) w/o muffler; Isn't a little bit heavy for a 2x2 pattern?
Anyway, it's the cheapest + more powerfull power plant available it seems...
The most attractive attributes are rear intake and rear exhaust. It will turn a 20x12 with good authority on pipe (around 7K)
The rear drum intake (as opposed to simple reed intake of the others) is heavy by comparison. There is also quite a bit of extra meat on the case of this one. If one had access to a milling machine, I am sure this engine's weight could be dropped down to below 40 ozs. Remember that a YS170 weighs in at around 36 ozs, engine only, which isn't exactly light. But guys are running the ignition version of the engine with little problem
10-26-2010 | 06:52 PM
#23
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
More food for thought. Looks like the engines may end up on pretty level playing ground. Deciding factors now are cost of header/pipe between the two and of course SAP gets the winning vote on coustomer service. Still not crazy about the choke setup. Has anyone else brought that up? I much rather have the standard Walbro butterfly choke.
Any ideas how the SAP180 would turn the APC 19X10 pattern prop on standard muffler?
Is noise the main reason 12 and 13 pitch props are used? I would think it more difficult to maintain constant airspeed with that much pitch. I notice much more downline speed with a 22X10 as opposed to 23x8 on 50cc
BTW at the one pattern contest I did compete in this year, my DA 50 was not really louder then some YS powered models. Then again the only time full throttle is used is verticals with snaps.
Any ideas how the SAP180 would turn the APC 19X10 pattern prop on standard muffler?
Is noise the main reason 12 and 13 pitch props are used? I would think it more difficult to maintain constant airspeed with that much pitch. I notice much more downline speed with a 22X10 as opposed to 23x8 on 50cc
BTW at the one pattern contest I did compete in this year, my DA 50 was not really louder then some YS powered models. Then again the only time full throttle is used is verticals with snaps.
10-26-2010 | 07:05 PM
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From: Randolph,
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RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
Any ideas how the SAP 180 would turn the APC 19X10 pattern prop on standard muffler?
Probably a good indicator is to first try the 18.1x10 with just a muffler and see how that goes. I would not run that prop until it had some break-in time behind it, at least a gallon. On a stock muffler, a 17x10 would be good for break in, and keep it set a bit on the rich side. Just keep in mind that this engine likes to rev, so if you load it with anything that brings it down below the high 7K range, it's not going to work too well. The spool-up will be sluggish and it's just going to be tough in transitions to vertical. It would probably tend to run hot too.
10-26-2010 | 07:15 PM
#25
Senior Member
RE: Gas engines on Pattern: DLE?
ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie
More food for thought. Looks like the engines may end up on pretty level playing ground. Deciding factors now are cost of header/pipe between the two and of course SAP gets the winning vote on coustomer service. Still not crazy about the choke setup. Has anyone else brought that up? I much rather have the standard Walbro butterfly choke.
Any ideas how the SAP 180 would turn the APC 19X10 pattern prop on standard muffler?
Is noise the main reason 12 and 13 pitch props are used? I would think it more difficult to maintain constant airspeed with that much pitch. I notice much more downline speed with a 22X10 as opposed to 23x8 on 50cc
BTW at the one pattern contest I did compete in this year, my DA 50 was not really louder then some YS powered models. Then again the only time full throttle is used is verticals with snaps.
More food for thought. Looks like the engines may end up on pretty level playing ground. Deciding factors now are cost of header/pipe between the two and of course SAP gets the winning vote on coustomer service. Still not crazy about the choke setup. Has anyone else brought that up? I much rather have the standard Walbro butterfly choke.
Any ideas how the SAP 180 would turn the APC 19X10 pattern prop on standard muffler?
Is noise the main reason 12 and 13 pitch props are used? I would think it more difficult to maintain constant airspeed with that much pitch. I notice much more downline speed with a 22X10 as opposed to 23x8 on 50cc
BTW at the one pattern contest I did compete in this year, my DA 50 was not really louder then some YS powered models. Then again the only time full throttle is used is verticals with snaps.
The SAP will turn large diameters with moderate blade area and low pitch in the 19" diameter size. The APC 19x10 is possibly too much prop on muffler, BUT I have not run one so I don't know. I do know that the 18.1x10 pattern prop works very well on a piped SAP. I used that prop for break-in then switched to the 17x12 for pattern work. The 17x12 is the largest load I would run in the heat of Summer. I am currently running a slightly clipped version of the 17x12 (down to 16.5x12) which works exceedingly well. I have run a 16x12 and that works well too but rpm are getting up there and the prop noise got a little louder.
I would say try it and make your own decisions. The competitors are not using the muffler....the ES pipe gives enough boost to increase the load considerably
