Folks
I am looking for some advice.
Basically how long should a normal 360 normal and 360 slow roll take and what is the best way to set up the aleiron stick to do these manouvers.
Ie do you set the high rate to do a give a normal roll rate at full stick deflection and the low rate to give a slow roll rate a full deflection or is there a better way?

Mike

I would simply practice enough to where I move the stick just a little bit for a slow roll, and a little more for a normal roll. Go on feel alone. Roll rates vary wildly across the board, but I happen to like 3 seconds for a roll, and about 7 seconds for a slow roll.

There are a variety of standards, most of them optional. If you fly pattern under AMA rules a slow roll must take at least three seconds. There is no specification for a non-slow roll, but the pattern guys as a rule go for a slower roll than the sport flyers, because they have to start and stop their rolls on the money at 90 degrees for quarter roll, 180 for half, 360 etc., or be penalized according to how far off they are. They also have to roll without wobbling in pitch or yaw, which takes well-timed coordination of rudder and elevator nudges. It's easier to time your stick movement when your roll rate is a bit slower.

For less exacting sport flying, you can go as fast or slow as you like, but kit manufacturers often recommend setting up a rate of three rolls in three seconds. One roll in one second is definitely fast for pattern flying. If you are flying scale, then you want to come close to the roll rate of your full scale airplane, which of course varies over a wide range. When I've gone to IMAC meets (scale aerobatic models of CAP's, Extra's, Edge's, etc.) the rolls seem pretty fast to me. The snaps are done in a flash, and the non-snaps are pretty quick. I imagine they are approximating the roll rates of the full scale aerobats, but I've not had the privilege to see full scale aerobats in action.

I set up my pattern ships with the aileron pushrod as far out as possible on the aileron horn and as close in to the hub as possible on the servo arm. I also set up my servos on computer tx for maximum rotation (140 ATV on Futaba). This gives maximum leverage to the servo, maximum holding power against wind buffets and high-speed flutter, and maximum resolution in the sticks. It also gives a slow enough roll rate to stop your rolls pretty close on the quarter, half, full, etc. So when I do a roll--full or fractional, I shove the stick all the way over, and hold it until it's time to release it back to center. No feeling around for how much deflection is just right--it's either full over or it's centered.

For slow roll, set your low rate on ailerons at whatever level gives you the roll rate you're looking for, holding the stick all the way over. The alternative is to hold a single-rate stick at partial deflection, and keep it steady while nudging in elevator correction at the 180 and 360 degree marks. I've tried it that way, and I like the dual rate method much better. But you have to train yourself to flick that rate switch up and down while paying close attention to your plane, what the wind is doing, what your caller is telling you, how the engine is sounding...competitive flying calls for intense concentration.

I talked to a district scale champ about the set-up on his 1/3 scale Flybaby, a model of which he piloted the full scale version. I was surprised to learn he had standard servos on all his control surfaces. But seeing him fly the model at a scale speed, which seemed slow but rock-steady and graceful, and non-aerobatic because the full scale is not aerobatic, his 40 ounce-inch torque on his aileron servos was probably linked to apply four or five times that torque at the aileron horn (+/- 50 degrees movement of servo arm levered against +/- 10 degrees aileron movement--I'm only guessing, but something on that order). If you fly at normal scale speed, less than 50 mph for a 1/3 scale model, then you don't need high torque servos.

The giant scale aerobats with their torque-rolling monsters are on another planet with their multiple three and four high-torque digitals on each aileron, sucking off I don't know how many amps of battery draw. These guys and their equipment are amazing, and they sort of set the level to which us lesser mortals can only aspire, but that's Hollywood and this is New Hampshire. I wouldn't mind a trip to Hollywood, but I like living here just fine.

Mike,

I know of pilots (and judges) how like slow rolls of about 3 to 4 seconds and of others that like them even longer. The longer it takes to complete the roll, the more control input you have to give in order to keep flying in a straight line - either way, rolls are difficult manoevers, in my opinion.

I would not advice you set high-rate for fast rolls and low-rate for slow rolls, basically because this involves flipping of a switch - a distraction, IMHO. Just try to fly them out giving aileron, rudder and stab input as smooth as possible.

I've done quite some rolls with my plane(s) in the past few years and I am still looking for that "perfect roll", aka "the roll of my life" Until then, I continue practising, which is the best way to improve one's rolling performance.

Please note that an accurately set-up of the plane greatly helps when doing rolls.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
-Fabrizio

Hi Folks
Thanks for the replies.
I am learning pattern and at the moment my rolls are god awfull.
Ie all over the place.
I was asked by a gentleman I was teaching to fly to do a roll with his trainer and he presto it was half decent. The only difference was it was a much slower roll rate and I got the input in a lot easier.
Hence the question what rate or rotation is a normal roll and what for a slow.
So basically people are telling me that a normal should be about 3seconds and a slow 5 seconds and it is better to go on feel.
Well it gives me a start

Mike

i like a roll at 2 1/4 second and a slow roll at 4 1/2 second...........i just like to shoot in those ranges

Mike, I expect you know this already, but for others browsing this thread I will just recite the inputs to an axial or almost axial roll:
roll right with aileron, touch in left rudder and release, touch in down elevator and release, touch in right rudder and release, touch in up elevator and the roll is complete. The left rudder should be touched in just before 90 degrees, the down elevator just before 180 degrees, the right rudder just before 270 and the up elevator just before 360. Rolling left the rudder inputs go the other way. Four-point rolls you hold left rudder, down elevator, right rudder at the 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 points.

Majortom
Do you use rudder correction when you are doing both normal and slow rolls.
I have just been doing it on slow rolls.

Mike

For slow rolls, there's no getting around the use of rudder--you have to do it. For horizontal rolls (as opposed to upline & downline full & fractional rolls) less than three seconds, I sometimes do and sometimes don't...not because of any deliberate calculation, but it depends on the plane I'm flying, whether I'm goofing off or practicing seriously. I seem to have acquired the habit when rolling from inverted to upright of boosting the tail with a little of same rudder to aileron. When I'm concentrating, I touch in opposite rudder rolling from upright to inverted.

When I do a high horizontal roll and I think the judges can't see any better than I do, I will often try to get away with just elevator correction, no rudder. That's probably because I'm thinking that if I use rudder at and don't do it right, it will be more noticeable than if I just leave the rudder out of it. When I took a series of classes in Intermediate, my instructor recommended elevator only, so that was my excuse. At that time my inclination was to slow the roll down enough to touch in the rudder. However the drill was double and triple continuous rolls, and the concentration required to time rudder and elevator for a triple roll was more than my synapses could handle. Triple rolls take lots of practice (like everything else in pattern!).

If I'm doing a low horizontal roll, I feel I have to use the rudder but I usually practice that with special attention before a competition. If you check the Don Ramsey Pattern Page http://www.cox-internet.com/donramsey/index.htm and click on Flying Techniques I think you'll find an authoritative recommendation for using rudder in all horizontal rolls and fractions.

Next consideration is the use of differential on the ailerons. For a while I did not see the necessity for doing this. I'm not sure it's included in the NSRCA trimming procedure. But anyway, the test is to fly straight out or straight in, wobble the ailerons and see whether the plane wobbles left and right in the yaw axis in addition to the roll axis. If it does, then it will also wobble (noticeably!) when it rolls through the quarter points. Program in some differential on your tx to take this out. Obviously this correction will reduce the amount of rudder correction you need.