Chip Hyde CG
03-05-2013 | 07:19 AM
#76
RE: Chip Hyde CG
Oh No Doug,
you got the "Spiral Slip Stream" Posse after me
Doug The point I`m Making is Even the BIG Boys argue of the SSS existence If It can`t be DUplicated, Explained, Demonstrated,
reproduced with and understanding of what causes it and Aero Guys still aurgue about it, It is not Sience, Just a educated Guess, They can Create tornados , and vortex, but can`t quantify the SSS
Why can`t they do more than Guess "thats what must be Causing it!"
I`m demonstrating , we toss out words ,terms,ECT. that may apply to full scale aircraft and think we can lump them on Models.
and that just explains it away,
When I started designing Pattern Aircraft
I was told the Stab had to be lowered to keep the airplane from pitching to the belly on Rudder( wrong)
I was told SSS was Causing the airplane to pitch to the Belly on left rudder, But right rudder ,,Not so much (wrong)
I was told down thrust was how you kept an airplane from pulling to the canopy in a verical up line (wrong)
I was told you can`t get the mix out of a airplane because the SSS put unequal pressures on the surfaces,you just have to live with it (wrong)
I was told Wide tall fuses would fly terribe in the wind(wrong)
I was told a heavy airplane flew better in the wind (wrong)
I was told the airplane had to be built with wing, stab set to zero (wrong)
I was told there is no way to perform a Knife edge loop with no Mix purley on rudder command (wrong)
I was told anhedral stabs countered too much dihedral in the wing (wrong)
I was told you had to run the C/G back around 35 % so the airplane used just a little down elevator (wrong)
I was told you need minimun of 2 degrees right thrust (wrong)
I was told to start out with 1.5 deg down thrust (wrong)
I was told a forward canopy rolled better (wrong)
I was told fixed gear were less drag than retracts (wrong)
I was told there had to be a left rudder mix at low throttle (wrong )
I was told you cannot use Sharp leading edges on your wings and stabs the airplanes would be pitchy in flight (wrong)
I was told you cannot use counter balances on ailerons (wrong)
I was told you had to run deferential on ailerons to roll axially (wrong)
I WAS TOLD ALL BIPES HAD TO HAVE THE WINGS AT DIFFERENT INC. NEG ON TOP POS ON BOTTOM (WRONG)
I WAS TOLD TO USE UP THRUST ON THE BIPE( WRONG)
I WAS TOLD TO GIVE UP ON THE BIPE (WRONG)the guy who told be that went back to it after seeing mine HAHA
i WAS TOLD BIPES WERE TO COMPLICATED TO HAVE NO MIX (WRONG)
I WAS TOLD TO BE COMPETITIVE TODAY I HAD TO GO TO ELECTRIC (WRONG) had to throw that one in LOL
These are only a few examples. SO forgive me if I don`t Jump on board.
I have demonstrated these all to be wrong, only one is a oppinion, YS POWER BABY!!
These have been Pattern design Myths that just keep passing down through the generations of Fliers and designs and they are hard to change it`s easy to read this in "RC Modeler" and accept them as fact from good writers and pretty sound logic.
SO forgive me if I can demonstrate there is no design criteria for eleminating the SSS or that it even effects what we do.
Most of what it is blamed on it is due to Poor design or poor trimming.
Our fuses have become the size of garbage cans and our props have doubled in size. Yet ,Our understanding of these two dynamics are stuck in the 70`s design formulas, from our teen age Hero`s.
I know Goerge Hick`s he has verbaly spanked me on the Web( I deserved it ) But Theory and application are two different horses.
Guys like me Prove the Theory for the thinkers. Or disprove it in many cases.
Bryan
you got the "Spiral Slip Stream" Posse after me
Doug The point I`m Making is Even the BIG Boys argue of the SSS existence If It can`t be DUplicated, Explained, Demonstrated,
reproduced with and understanding of what causes it and Aero Guys still aurgue about it, It is not Sience, Just a educated Guess, They can Create tornados , and vortex, but can`t quantify the SSS
Why can`t they do more than Guess "thats what must be Causing it!"
I`m demonstrating , we toss out words ,terms,ECT. that may apply to full scale aircraft and think we can lump them on Models.
and that just explains it away,
When I started designing Pattern Aircraft
I was told the Stab had to be lowered to keep the airplane from pitching to the belly on Rudder( wrong)
I was told SSS was Causing the airplane to pitch to the Belly on left rudder, But right rudder ,,Not so much (wrong)
I was told down thrust was how you kept an airplane from pulling to the canopy in a verical up line (wrong)
I was told you can`t get the mix out of a airplane because the SSS put unequal pressures on the surfaces,you just have to live with it (wrong)
I was told Wide tall fuses would fly terribe in the wind(wrong)
I was told a heavy airplane flew better in the wind (wrong)
I was told the airplane had to be built with wing, stab set to zero (wrong)
I was told there is no way to perform a Knife edge loop with no Mix purley on rudder command (wrong)
I was told anhedral stabs countered too much dihedral in the wing (wrong)
I was told you had to run the C/G back around 35 % so the airplane used just a little down elevator (wrong)
I was told you need minimun of 2 degrees right thrust (wrong)
I was told to start out with 1.5 deg down thrust (wrong)
I was told a forward canopy rolled better (wrong)
I was told fixed gear were less drag than retracts (wrong)
I was told there had to be a left rudder mix at low throttle (wrong )
I was told you cannot use Sharp leading edges on your wings and stabs the airplanes would be pitchy in flight (wrong)
I was told you cannot use counter balances on ailerons (wrong)
I was told you had to run deferential on ailerons to roll axially (wrong)
I WAS TOLD ALL BIPES HAD TO HAVE THE WINGS AT DIFFERENT INC. NEG ON TOP POS ON BOTTOM (WRONG)
I WAS TOLD TO USE UP THRUST ON THE BIPE( WRONG)
I WAS TOLD TO GIVE UP ON THE BIPE (WRONG)
the guy who told be that went back to it after seeing mine HAHAi WAS TOLD BIPES WERE TO COMPLICATED TO HAVE NO MIX (WRONG)
I WAS TOLD TO BE COMPETITIVE TODAY I HAD TO GO TO ELECTRIC (WRONG) had to throw that one in LOL
These are only a few examples. SO forgive me if I don`t Jump on board.
I have demonstrated these all to be wrong, only one is a oppinion, YS POWER BABY!!
These have been Pattern design Myths that just keep passing down through the generations of Fliers and designs and they are hard to change it`s easy to read this in "RC Modeler" and accept them as fact from good writers and pretty sound logic.
SO forgive me if I can demonstrate there is no design criteria for eleminating the SSS or that it even effects what we do.
Most of what it is blamed on it is due to Poor design or poor trimming.
Our fuses have become the size of garbage cans and our props have doubled in size. Yet ,Our understanding of these two dynamics are stuck in the 70`s design formulas, from our teen age Hero`s.
I know Goerge Hick`s he has verbaly spanked me on the Web( I deserved it ) But Theory and application are two different horses.
Guys like me Prove the Theory for the thinkers. Or disprove it in many cases.
Bryan
03-05-2013 | 08:02 AM
#77
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Chip Hyde CG
Sounds to me that Bryan isn't announcing that the spiral slip stream doesn't exist or does exist (leaving the thinking to the theorists) but simply that it isn't a variable that must be adjusted for in our models.<div></div><div>Nice design Chip. Can't wait to see this thing fly. It is good looking.</div>
03-05-2013 | 04:45 PM
#80
RE: Chip Hyde CG
ORIGINAL: flyncajun
I agree Jim I`m waisting my time
Lets here your trim method
Bryan
I agree Jim I`m waisting my time
Lets here your trim method
Bryan
I think I'll call it the Pentagon Method.
Jim O
03-06-2013 | 08:49 AM
#84
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From: Tweed Heads, AUSTRALIA
RE: Chip Hyde CG
I was hoping Chip might like to say something about his design. I for one would like to know the following:
Inspiration to design the bipe like this,
What advantages do you see with the YS over Electric at this point in the game?
Is this design yours alone or has there been any outside influence?
Have you got any prototypes of it you are testing?
I was also wondering how you decide who will manufacture your model?
Do they approach you or do you have to go out and find an interested manufacturer?
Do you do the CAD work or is it something you work with Oxai to develop?
Just curious. I've always wondered what the steps were for top pilotsdesigners to go through from designing to finding a manufacturer as we usually only see the finished product.
Hope you are reading this thread and maybe would be able to give some info.
Wayne
Inspiration to design the bipe like this,
What advantages do you see with the YS over Electric at this point in the game?
Is this design yours alone or has there been any outside influence?
Have you got any prototypes of it you are testing?
I was also wondering how you decide who will manufacture your model?
Do they approach you or do you have to go out and find an interested manufacturer?
Do you do the CAD work or is it something you work with Oxai to develop?
Just curious. I've always wondered what the steps were for top pilotsdesigners to go through from designing to finding a manufacturer as we usually only see the finished product.
Hope you are reading this thread and maybe would be able to give some info.
Wayne
03-10-2013 | 07:23 AM
#85
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From: Eugene, OR
RE: Chip Hyde CG
papaone, if theres another place that the progress is posted on this, can you let me know one way or another? PM email, whatever. I am really interested in this and how it go's.
Ihad the pleasure of having a visit with Mike Dumphy yesterday, and brought this up. He also agree's that the closer wings is exactly what the pattern bipe needs.
Seems this was just the wrong choice of a forum in my opinion.
Iwana see more!
Ihad the pleasure of having a visit with Mike Dumphy yesterday, and brought this up. He also agree's that the closer wings is exactly what the pattern bipe needs.
Seems this was just the wrong choice of a forum in my opinion.
Iwana see more!
03-12-2013 | 08:47 PM
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From: Ossining,
NY
RE: Chip Hyde CG
ORIGINAL: proparc
One good win and the all the debate ends!!
One good win and the all the debate ends!!
Chuck H is actually getting pretty close with his construction of his design, the Insight RC Remora, which has pretty closely spaced wings. At the pace he's building it'll be airborne in a couple of weeks.[8D]
And maybe Chip is already flying a prototype of this one and we just haven't heard about it.
03-13-2013 | 07:54 AM
#89
Senior Member
RE: Chip Hyde CG
ORIGINAL: PeterP
Who won?
Who won?
I'd hazard a guess and say the sport of Pattern Flying!! And NO it isn't the building, or finishing, or radio, or powerplant OR the design.......ORNOT!
03-14-2013 | 02:54 AM
#90
RE: Chip Hyde CG
ORIGINAL: DWNUNDR
I was hoping Chip might like to say something about his design. I for one would like to know the following:
Inspiration to design the bipe like this,
What advantages do you see with the YS over Electric at this point in the game?
Is this design yours alone or has there been any outside influence?
Have you got any prototypes of it you are testing?
I was also wondering how you decide who will manufacture your model?
Do they approach you or do you have to go out and find an interested manufacturer?
Do you do the CAD work or is it something you work with Oxai to develop?
Just curious. I've always wondered what the steps were for top pilots designers to go through from designing to finding a manufacturer as we usually only see the finished product.
Hope you are reading this thread and maybe would be able to give some info.
Wayne
I was hoping Chip might like to say something about his design. I for one would like to know the following:
Inspiration to design the bipe like this,
What advantages do you see with the YS over Electric at this point in the game?
Is this design yours alone or has there been any outside influence?
Have you got any prototypes of it you are testing?
I was also wondering how you decide who will manufacture your model?
Do they approach you or do you have to go out and find an interested manufacturer?
Do you do the CAD work or is it something you work with Oxai to develop?
Just curious. I've always wondered what the steps were for top pilots designers to go through from designing to finding a manufacturer as we usually only see the finished product.
Hope you are reading this thread and maybe would be able to give some info.
Wayne
The Alferma had a big part in this design simply because it proved in the worst possible conditions a YS powered Bipe easily held its own and that allowed Brett approx 3 seconds per manuever more time to think which is huge in an unknown. As good as Jason flew the Sensation it still looked like every other lightly wing loaded bipe I have ever seen and I just cant see there being a way to over come that. Finally even when watching Andrew fly the nearly flawless unknown the round he was first up with the monoplane, I knew that combination was not an option for me. I was watching the one guy in the world that could of made that flight, in those conditions, at that pace and that was Andrew.
So those 3 were the inspiration for thisdesign (Final Touch) as well as a new monoplane. Once I had 2d drawing I made, I sent them to Seba. He likes them both but was a little nervous about investing in all the molds simply because of the unknowns which I completely understand. I also sent my 2d drawing to Oxai at the same time because we have been talking about doing a plane together for the past few years. I never really pursued it because I wasn't about to waste this opportunity on just another pattern design it had to be something at least as unique as the Visa.
Anyhow they replied within a few hours ao we planned out a realistic timeframe and that brings us to today. They a cutting the Molds right off the drawings Mariano did for me and I should have the first one in mid to late May. Since that will be cutting it close for the Nats I went ahead and ordered two Axiom+GP's. I hear they are about ready to be shipped which will give me some proven planes right away.
Anyhow I am totally fine with some peoples opinouns that it will never work, and I appriciate Doug as well as others letting me know this. However something in my head tells me it will be ok and I have to go with that.
I will put up some pics as I get them. I have been watching Matt and Jims planes fly with the 175's and if mine are anywhere in the ballpark its going to be a fun year.
Chip
03-17-2013 | 04:07 AM
#93
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From: buenos aires, ARGENTINA
RE: Chip Hyde CG
chip,<div></div><div>People like you, CPLR, QQ, MATT and more</div><div>were responsible for changing the models over the years</div><div>empirical method! forward</div><div></div><div>regards</div><div>Mariano</div>
03-22-2013 | 03:19 PM
#96
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Chip Hyde CG
ORIGINAL: flyncajun
Peter the prop vortex picture is nice , thanks I have seen it many times, plus a few other pictures that guys claim is the spiral slip stream. it`s not documentation from Nasa just a cool photo and, no body even know if it`s real. Just like the picure of a 20 ' long Alligator in New Orleans
If it is real,It`s nothng more than Prop tip vortex from a stationary run up. It will disipate and straiten as soon as it hits the wing, if it makes it that far . There is no way that air is still rotating past the wing. and if it hit the rudder there is not enough force to cause any ill effect anyway it would only be felt as turbulance.
just like a wing tip creates vortex traveling under high angle of attack,the prop does the same.
I`m too dumb to understand the artical thanks anywaybut, It`s still conjecture.
Doug
don`t you think I know what P- effect or torque is, I read it on google too!
My Question to you is what do you think Spiral slip stream causes on a model plane. Please tell me , SO I can show you how to fix it, I want to help you understand how to trim the model your having trouble with. Do you Own a Contra! or have you ever flown a Contra drive setup? How can you qualify your expert knowledge?
No pattern model designer worries about the Spiral slip stream , He is way more worried about making weight Plain and simple. they can`t measure it because it is not real so they can`t fix it. . Any attempt to address it, causes other issues because it`s a band aid for the result of another problem. cause and effect ,,fix the wrong effect create another cause!
If the Contra straightens the ''spiral Slip Stream'' then why are they having so much trouble getting the airplane trimmed for it is straight air worse than crooked air LOL
The only GuyI know that didn`t have trouble trimming his airplane with the Contra, was the Guy flying a Valiant with a contra.
Could it be I`m lucky?
Have you ever seen video of ribbon tapped to a fuse while the engine is run up from idle to full throttle ,,you would be very surprised to see the ribbon just goes straight back no matter where you apply it to the fuse or wing.
Did you ever see a 40% airplane hover with smoke and watch the smoke spin or wrap around the airplane , NO,,does the airplane require left rudder to hover? NO,
The reason WHy it`s so hard to learn to torque roll is it`s very difficult to get the airplane to even actually start the spin the opposite of the prop and the torque force cannot even be felt holding a model off the ground and running the motor up. Even with no forward air speed, And hanging on the prop, goosing the throttle, it takes a large diameter prop and low pitch ,and there is no spiral slip stream seen. not even a bend in the smoke trail ,the smoke is just projected back from the prop the same angle as the engine thrust setting. Even when the plane is hidden with smoke and you hardly see the plane ,still no spiral slip stream. just turbulant smoke.
Almost all modern pattern designs can be set up to fly with no mix by just making sure everthing is perfectly aligned. not adusted crooked to counter act anything caused by using a 0-0 setup. but accurately measured and set perfect. A repair for the Myth is not needed just a little bit of common sense. knowing what causes the problem in the first place is the only way to fix it.
First ,left rudder belly tuck was blamed on the SSS after I understood what caused that problem and fixed it, then Left rudder mix at low throttle was blamed on it ,,then I figured out what causes that, Then yaw problems on radious exits were blamed Then I figured out what caused that! Man there is nothing left to blame the spiral slip stream on now. becuase it don`t cause any problems. and I`m bored.
So I Ask, What is your airplane doing so I can tell you how to fix it.
You would think,with all the YS powered airplane videos out there you would think somebody could show us a spiral slip stream on a rich run!
Even if I were to say I think it`s real, we have no way of seeing, feeling, or equating it. so it must not be real right? just like God
Bryan
Peter the prop vortex picture is nice , thanks I have seen it many times, plus a few other pictures that guys claim is the spiral slip stream. it`s not documentation from Nasa just a cool photo and, no body even know if it`s real. Just like the picure of a 20 ' long Alligator in New Orleans
If it is real,It`s nothng more than Prop tip vortex from a stationary run up. It will disipate and straiten as soon as it hits the wing, if it makes it that far . There is no way that air is still rotating past the wing. and if it hit the rudder there is not enough force to cause any ill effect anyway it would only be felt as turbulance.
just like a wing tip creates vortex traveling under high angle of attack,the prop does the same.
I`m too dumb to understand the artical thanks anyway
but, It`s still conjecture.Doug
don`t you think I know what P- effect or torque is, I read it on google too!
My Question to you is what do you think Spiral slip stream causes on a model plane. Please tell me , SO I can show you how to fix it, I want to help you understand how to trim the model your having trouble with. Do you Own a Contra! or have you ever flown a Contra drive setup? How can you qualify your expert knowledge?
No pattern model designer worries about the Spiral slip stream , He is way more worried about making weight
Plain and simple. they can`t measure it because it is not real so they can`t fix it. . Any attempt to address it, causes other issues because it`s a band aid for the result of another problem. cause and effect ,,fix the wrong effect create another cause!If the Contra straightens the ''spiral Slip Stream'' then why are they having so much trouble getting the airplane trimmed for it
is straight air worse than crooked air LOLThe only GuyI know that didn`t have trouble trimming his airplane with the Contra, was the Guy flying a Valiant with a contra.
Could it be I`m lucky?
Have you ever seen video of ribbon tapped to a fuse while the engine is run up from idle to full throttle ,,you would be very surprised to see the ribbon just goes straight back no matter where you apply it to the fuse or wing.
Did you ever see a 40% airplane hover with smoke and watch the smoke spin or wrap around the airplane , NO,,does the airplane require left rudder to hover? NO,
The reason WHy it`s so hard to learn to torque roll is it`s very difficult to get the airplane to even actually start the spin the opposite of the prop and the torque force cannot even be felt holding a model off the ground and running the motor up. Even with no forward air speed, And hanging on the prop, goosing the throttle, it takes a large diameter prop and low pitch ,and there is no spiral slip stream seen. not even a bend in the smoke trail ,the smoke is just projected back from the prop the same angle as the engine thrust setting. Even when the plane is hidden with smoke and you hardly see the plane ,still no spiral slip stream. just turbulant smoke.
Almost all modern pattern designs can be set up to fly with no mix by just making sure everthing is perfectly aligned. not adusted crooked to counter act anything caused by using a 0-0 setup. but accurately measured and set perfect. A repair for the Myth is not needed just a little bit of common sense. knowing what causes the problem in the first place is the only way to fix it.
First ,left rudder belly tuck was blamed on the SSS after I understood what caused that problem and fixed it, then Left rudder mix at low throttle was blamed on it ,,then I figured out what causes that, Then yaw problems on radious exits were blamed Then I figured out what caused that! Man there is nothing left to blame the spiral slip stream on now. becuase it don`t cause any problems. and I`m bored.
So I Ask, What is your airplane doing so I can tell you how to fix it.
You would think,with all the YS powered airplane videos out there you would think somebody could show us a spiral slip stream on a rich run!
Even if I were to say I think it`s real, we have no way of seeing, feeling, or equating it. so it must not be real right? just like God
Bryan
I would suggest the canted and cambered stators in a turbofan exist to straighten out spiral slipstream effects.....
03-22-2013 | 03:30 PM
#97
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Chip Hyde CG
the issue with a biplane having two wings close together is interesting.... From a "Lift - to - drag" point of view... having the wings far apart
has merit.... as this isn't a sailplane, a small drag penalty is prolly not too much of a concern.... one could also think of this as a plane
that has an effective wing area less than the physical wing area....
Other than spins and snaps, our AOA's are generally not excessively high.. so the interaction between the wings would prolly be
pretty small anyway...
One might think in these terms... when a wing makes lift, there is low pressure on the upper surface and high pressure on the lower surface.... so when two bipe wings are close.. the high pressure on the lower side of the top wing affects the low pressure on the top of the lower wing.... it is affected... but prolly the sky isn't going to fall and the plane will fly fantastic...
this might be a means to aerodynamically synthesize a higher wing loading during high AOA maneuvers........hmmm....
has merit.... as this isn't a sailplane, a small drag penalty is prolly not too much of a concern.... one could also think of this as a plane
that has an effective wing area less than the physical wing area....
Other than spins and snaps, our AOA's are generally not excessively high.. so the interaction between the wings would prolly be
pretty small anyway...
One might think in these terms... when a wing makes lift, there is low pressure on the upper surface and high pressure on the lower surface.... so when two bipe wings are close.. the high pressure on the lower side of the top wing affects the low pressure on the top of the lower wing.... it is affected... but prolly the sky isn't going to fall and the plane will fly fantastic...
this might be a means to aerodynamically synthesize a higher wing loading during high AOA maneuvers........hmmm....
03-22-2013 | 03:32 PM
#98
RE: Chip Hyde CG
I certainly hope that you have properly modeled the angle of the dangle and incorporated those results into your design. Lots of people forget this important aerodynamic factor and end up paying the price!![&:]
