Bob Pastorello

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Guys - need some creative ideas....I have two Monologs, the 70 and 110, and both are really excellent fliers. Great power setups, nice control sensitivity and balance, making me feel like I can do this precision flying thing again (even after all these years). Had cataract surgery LAST summer, distance is 20-20, no glaucoma interference, depth perception okay. ( I know these things because they have been well-tested with results documented.)

Here's the issue - with both Monologs, they are absolute STEALTH mode in turnarounds, and wings level fly by at distance they simply become near invisible. I'm believing that it's either color-scheme, contrast, or a combination of both. The question is - obviously recovering, or adding color swatches, but I need some ideas on *what* to try....

I'm sure I'm not the first sexagenarian to have to face this issue in pattern, and many of the readers here are easily elders....I need some ideas...

learn2turn

I'd like to hop on this thread also to discuss the issue. I have a Monolog 70 and plan to put it together this winter. I took it out and looked at it. The top color scheme is pink silver and red. The bottom is just silver and pink without the red. With the red on top, it makes the top slightly darker than the bottom.

Now I've always heard, lighter on top and darker on bottom. So the wings are a tad backwards on the monolog. Also, the bottom has random silver stars on the pink. That's more a top-of-the-wing pattern. Usually bottoms just have simple geometric sahpes like stripes are high-contrast black and white panels.

I always try to discern the orientation of my plane by continuity of motion as color can let you down sometimes. Like against a hazy sky your whole plane can be a black silhouette. But I still think a color scheme design for visual acuity is a good idea. You never know when you could get confused trying something new and if the color scheme helps bail you out when you @#$% up, great.

I'm seriously thinking about taking some dark color monocoat, black or blue, and putting a few stripes on the bottom of the wings. I'm not sure how I'd orient them yet, maybe front to back like invasion stripes but further outboard. Also not sure if I'll maiden the plane first and then only put them on if I find myself needing them after flying it a bit. But something dark in spots on the bottom is going to remain a serious consideration as I think about how I'm going to built the plane.

Still not sure why they put a color scheme like the top of a wing on the bottom of the Monolog wing. Most planes use something high contrast like black and white.

Maybe take a look at the color schemes on several aerobatic planes and then modify the wing bottoms on your Monolog?

-l2t

learn2turn

One thing that is indeed a pain is that you see very few photos of the underside of planes so It's hard to find examples of ideas you might want to try.

The black and white blocks you see like on the bottom of Extreme Flight planes would be hard to do without recovering. That's why I'm thinking strips is the way to go.

I've found with my electric sailplane that one 6" red stripe 3/4 of the way outboard on one wing is enough to maintain orientation with an all-white airplane. But, a sailplane always viewed from the bottom is a bit different than an aerobatic plane.

DRC1

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Bob,

Having a bout with Diabetes starting in 2007 throughout the last six years, I also struggled with seeing any color combination because of the changes in my eyes. I used to be able to see extremely well with sunglasses on. However, I can't see anything with sunglasses on dispite a bright sunny day.

I have found that wearing yellow tented sunglasses popped the colors, especially with the Monolog scheme. It takes getting used to, but its the only way I can see the plane in sunlight or heavily clouded days.

However, that is just me...

Larry Diamond

learn2turn

Interesting idea. I night ski in winter and sometimes ski with light yellow glasses on,I have some Smith ski glasses with interchangeable lenses. On a few nights, I just forgot to take them off for the drive home, an hour drive on state highways and interstates at 10:00PM. I found I liked the yellow lenses as they improved contrast.

I'll give me yellow lenses a try flying sometime and see how they work.

It seem to remember that a lot of target shooters use yellow aviators also. There's definitely something about it improving contrast.

My guess is pink will look whiter and blue will look blacker.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Good comments and observations, thanks. I have found since the new lenses corrected my cataracts, my eyes are VERY sensitive to light. In fact, even when cloudy, if I am not wearing my Serengeti's, I'll have a headache pretty quickly. Back in the day, I wore yellow lenses to help on those comp days when there were only clouds...

As of this morning, I'm working on revision to the bottom wing/tail scheme to my more normally-visible large white patches leaving existing blue wide stripes, so the pink is essentially covered except for the inboard 1/3rd of the bottom. I have no illusions that this change will help, except that maybe the white v.s. blue contrast will be better than the pink/silver/blue.

EHFAI

Bob

I've studied the issues surrounding airplane visibility for years and have concluded that there's no easy answer, as the variables affect each person differently.

Color scheme is part of it - contrast is good, both to the sky and between the individual colors on the airplane, but the ideal varies with the individual. A plus in flying / judging at the Nats is that one gets to study the visibility of lots various color schemes.

Unfortunately, the ideal scheme may change with varied light conditions. Changing ones perspective to the sun angle can make a huge difference, like flying E-W vs. N-S for instance. Of course, the usual gambit of sky / cloud / light conditions have a big effect also.

After years of trying various Ray-Ban, Serengeti, Oakley, etc. sunglasses in various shades (for both flying and shooting) I've found that having a range of lenses in different colors allows me to best adapt to the situation. Presently I use ModelGlasses as they have lots of clip-on lenses available in their model / aviation / golf / fishing lines from which I've selected a few that work pretty well for me. Prices are low enough to allow for lots of experimentation.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Earl - that's all exactly right - you watched mine and vice versa for many years....and I have to agree. Although it is really hard to accept, it does seem that the visibility issue really boils down to the old "it depends". It would be so much more convenient if there were just a "do this" answer, eh?

Anywho - I know you've spent a lot of time in the chair... are there any schemes or layouts in general that appear more easily visible on the "ends", and up top ??

EHFAI

Bob

After using high contrast colors on the wing bottom (black / yellow / white) forever, I was a bit surprised that the gold or pink often used by Oxai on the bottom of wings shows up well for me. Florescent orange or red flair with some contrast works OK on the bottom also. I'm presently flying the BJCraft Episode and I see the pink wing bottom well. You're right though - "it depends".

MTK

Good subject Bob....A couple things: my latest model, Delta, sports a very simple scheme. Yellow base with large red and blue stripes on top of wings/stabs and large blue/yellow checks on bottom. I can see this combo better than most. For me, the busier the scheme the worse the visibility. Although healthwise my eyes have been lucky so far, my eyesight ain't what it used to be also.

Edit: it isn't the color so much....the blue and red stripes become dark or black quickly at distance. BUT the contrast between the yellow and the dark stripes is something my eyes can see. Same thing with the checks underneath. It's not the color there either but the contrast

About a year ago, by chance I took a quick peek through my granddaughter's pink play glasses. It was quite an overcast day but to my surprise, the pink hue seemed to cut through the clouds pretty well. Never did look through them on a sunny day tho.

I agree with Earl that several top lenses may work out better in the long run.

Earl, it lloks like Model Glasses also available for prescription, right? At least 10 years ago I had tried a similar approach but was not happy with the size of the lenses...too small which really compromised the field of view. I'm curious to know if model glasses come in larger sizes

flycatch

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No matter the color scheme they all fade into black at distance. Your the pilot in command and it is up to you to rely on your stick inputs. I flew gliders for many years and they provide very little feedback if you expect a color scheme to help in orientation. My advice is to fly the airframe and forget about colors.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Matt - got a couple pics of your Delta you'd post here?

EHFAI

Matt

Yes, the ModelGlasses are available in prescription and that's what I use. The clip-in script mounting is stable and large enough so as to not limit the field of view significantly.

RBACONS

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I used to use Microsoft Powerpoint to preview a color scheme. After picking your colors, it had an option to display the scheme in grayscale which gives you the best idea of the relative contrast between the selected colors (ie, what you're going to see at a distance or under poor lighting conditions). The greater the contrast, the better the ability to discern the scheme, and thus the orientation, at a distance. For me, dark blue and yellow were always the best (such as ultracote Midnight Blue and Cub Yellow). In addition, any markings like stripes on the bottom of the wing should be as large as possible. A single 15" stripe under each wing and stab is much better than 2 or 3 6" stripes. I would usually do a contrasting stripe of about 40% of the span, leaving 40% of the base color inboard and 20% of the base color outboard. And as mentioned above, the base color on the bottom of the wing should be dark with a lighter (brighter?) contrasting color for the stripe. The sides and top of the fuse should be the lighter of the contrasting colors and any eye candy trim on the fuse should be a relatively small percentage of area. A busy scheme with lots of colors may look good on the ground but is of no value in seeing your plane at distance and usually makes things worse.

Lifer

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Orange trim against white works well for me. Black and yellow contrast well also. Doesn't work for scale planes but great for sport models.

Bob Pastorello

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RBACONS - that is some good info, and the Powerpoint color scheme pre-work sounds like a good step. Did you use simulator painting software or ???

THERCAV8R

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Orange and white has been the best. There is a reason they paint training A/C those colors. also try bright yellow on the leading edges. I have a green Zero with yellow leading edges and it is very visible.

RBACONS

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Bob,

No, I just laid out some rough and dirty wing/fuse shapes using powerpoint "shapes" and "filled" them with the appropriate colors and then selected the grayscale option to see how well they contrasted. I've since switched over to an Apple with OSx and the power point version seems to work differently. The only place I can find the grayscale option now is in Print Preview which is not nearly as convenient as it was on a Microsoft machine.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Great examples of things forgotten! You're right, thanks!

Tarasdad

I wear amber lens sunglasses over my regular glasses when flying. They enhance contrast and really make colors pop against the blue skies typical for where I live while simultaneously protecting my eyes from the blinding desert glare. The Ultracote Bright Yellow on the bottom of my Tiger 60 practically glows, as do the white numbers on the tops of its wings. Good thing, too, because the Deep Blue upper covering is a bit less visible against said sky - a minor brain fart on my part when picking colors for it.

Other colors that I've seen work well are neons in green, orange, yellow and pink. These are popular colors for model rocket parachutes around here and are easily seen against the sky.

rlfgary

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I use a band of yellow on the leading edge of each wing. Seems to pop out at great distances, long before I see the rest of the wing. Kind of like the spitfire warbird, or zero.

MachLoop

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+1 for the PowerPoint approach. Been using it for years. I never thought about the grey-scale effect. What I do is to print out the wing top and bottom separately, full page each. I then view them from across the room or hallway - the further away the better. Even take them outside. I view from afar in various lighting conditions. I can then see how the particular color combination remains visible to me. I learned to stop using my favorite colors in favor of those that I could distinguish better at distance.

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

What makes this color scheme issue crazier (for me, anyway), is that I have a Great Planes "Sequence", in it's native colors, and it is smaller than either of the Monologs, but significantly more visible to me. Yet it has somewhat of a busy multi-color monokote scheme that by definition of scale has smaller pieces of each color. Very good differentiation of top v.s. bottom....I don't get it...

Columbus Ron

Bob,

I've noticed that I (46 yr old) have difficulty seeing the nose orientation and wing orientation on my Passport on clear blue sky days and I'm beginning to wonder whether it has something to do with the glare from the shinny monokote and automotive paint we typically use. I would be interested in experiementing with a flat paint and monokote scheme. On clear days my plane looks hazy and I'm thinking it could be the shine from the scheme more so than what color combinations we are using.

Food for thought

Bob Pastorello

My Feedback: (198)

Ron - interesting there about reflections and glare.... I have a small epower bird that I put strips of spectral tape (the prismatic reflective stuff) on the tops of both wings, about 1 1/2" strips spanwise at the high point of the airfoil, then another about 2/3rds back....the focus of the glint spots helps with perspective, but doesn't seem to blind.
You made me recall the very WORST airplane I ever owned (for visibility) and that was a chrome-covered P-51....Only invasion stripes and tail surface checkerboard permitted me to see that one. I hated flying it....too scary.