So . . . it seems that local contests are dropping faster than presidential candidates . . . . .
.
What would you guys think about requiring folks to qualify for the Nats?
.
- Intermediate thru Advanced would have to attend and finish one round at any sanctioned local contest 12 months prior to attending the Nats.
- For Masters thru FAI, you would have to attend and finish in the top 80% at least two sanctioned local contests within the last 12 months.
.
Several benefits I can think of right off the bat:
.
1) Increase attendance at local contests.
2) Increase attendance of the "big name" folks at local contests.
3) Give everyone attending the Nats some "skin in the game" by requiring more than the ability to make a hotel reservation.
4) Make the Nats more manageable by reducing the current imbalance of attendees between Int. / Adv. and Mast. / FAI.
.
I think that qualifying for the Nats, and a National Ranking system to determine what class you fly would go a long way towards transforming Pattern from just a very expensive part time job to an actual competitive sport that guys would want to invest time and money in again.

Here is my take on this:...In my district (6 in NSRCA and 8 in AMA), we have many top pilots who place at the top or near the top every year at the NATS.
They are at most contests in my district. I can tell you that they won't place well if they don't compete regularly.
You lost me on a national ranking system. If a guy is at the top of his class before the NATS, you want to force him to the next class up, even if he/she never flew the maneuvers before?
Increasing attendance at local contests has nothing to do with the NATS. JMHO

P.S. There were only 9 flyers in Intermediate this year at the NATS. These pilots come from the Sportsman ranks. I have been to 7 contest this year, and in those 7, there were only 13 Sportsman pilots.That seems to be where we need to focus our attention.

It depends on what we want Pattern to be - a competitive sport, or a Participation Trophy event.
.
Right now if someone has a GPS and a credit card, they can be an "FAI Nats pilot".
.
However, if we created some sort of actual - you know - competitive structure you have to climb to get there we may generate more interest and keep more guys involved longer if there is an actual goal to pursue.
.
The National Ranking system (similar to amateur tennis), would give you a numerical score of what class you should be entering instead of moving up, going to the Nats and THEN realizing you suck.
.

Do you have proof that this isn't already the case?

From what I see pattern is suffering from trying to walk a tightrope between being a competitive contest event and being a participation event. Don't think we'll achieve the best of both worlds. I agree with Gary that we need most attention to lower classes. Each of us were newbies and were bitten by the bug. So the answers are there but are they relative to todays plug and play world.

maustin

The words in red, are for me, the biggest hold up. IMO it is for many also. I was out of the hobby for a number of years. I used to race Quarter Midget back in the day. It was a relatively inexpensive sport at the time. When I returned racing was not something I wanted to do. I "discovered" DLG (discus launch glider). I thought this is for me. Bought a used $200 entry level plane. It taught me a lot. Come to find out a really competitive DLG is right around $1000. That's a lot of cash for a 9 ounce airplane. That is out of my league. Then I discovered IMAC. Never bought a plane but the costs for a competitive air frame is high. I flew pattern briefly way back in the day. And decided I was going to get back in. Guess what.... HIGH priced air frames and engines. So I'm trying hard to give pattern a go on half a shoestring budget. We'll see how that works out.

With the above said...and I may be speaking out of turn here....What I would like to see in pattern is more contests even if they are smaller that are less than a four hour drive. ( I know this is not an issue in some parts of the country) Single day events to eliminate the overnight stay. Air frame size limitations in the lower classes (Sportsman only???) to make it more affordable for beginners. Maybe even a spec air frame/engine???? Not unlike NASCAR ( I hate NASCAR because of that) but we are only talking one or possibly two classes here. Maybe a class for those that like competition but have no desire to "move up" in the ranks. They just want somebody to judge their flying skills.

As mentioned above, you have to draw in the new blood if you want anything to survive. It has to be fun and not "work" or you will loose the new person. Those already in the sport need to hold out a welcoming hand (usually not an issue) and help all those that need it. With new blood in the sport I think much of the above will shake itself out.

Ken

Ken, you make some great points. In my NSRCA district (D6), we are throwing around the idea of a "pre-Sportsman" class where 2m ships are not allowed. This will make it much easier for budding pattern pilots to get in the sport. Some pilots, including myself, have won Sportsman and Intermediate with 50 sized ships. It's not always necessary to have the best gear, but skill is mandatory.
Many pilots stay in the same class for years and years, mostly because they have reached their skill limit, or don't want to take the time to move up. The only pressure we have to move up is when you reach 100 points in a calendar year, or in some cases a competitor wins a district championship. Either way, most pilots at that level of competency want to move up.
I reduce my travel costs by sharing a motel for the weekend. This and bringing my meals helps a lot. Get involved with your district and see if a 1 day contest can be arranged. They have been done this way for years, as long as the pilot count is less than about 20.


Gary

We have a national ranking system in Australia.

You start in Sportsman and when you gain 3 promotion points, (this is a pre set score for each class), in a 12 month period, you get promoted to the next class.
Once in FAI - F3A, you need to fly a minimum score once a year to stay in that class. If you don't, you are relegated to the class below.

This seems to work well.

With the above promotion system, there is no need for a qualifying criteria to be eligible to enter the Nats, as most pilots are already flying in the appropriate class.

I'm pretty sure ama would poo poo any idea such as this as its basically their nats. the nsrca just runs it.

Nats is open to any ama member.

Something to think about, scale has the same thing regional qualifiers, to qualify for the Scale Masters competition.

It's a different world then when I started flying. Pattern was the top of the rc aerobatic performance world, and did not share the throne. Today, the popcorn culture we live in has many options, and people are different. Not only will they choose something different than pattern, they'll choose again in 3-6 months. When I started, it was 'oh, that's John's plane', or 'Bob's plane'. Now the SUV backs up with 14 planes, and pulls out of the lot an hour later. I say all that to say that Pattern is from a different era, and I doubt it will ever rise from the ashes to be what it once was. It's just not as novel as the world around it anymore. AND, we're getting old. Not just pattern pilots, all pilots. The average age is up there in our club, and rising. I wish it were just money & time, but the interest level is not in kids like it used to be.

Having said thusly, I'll tell you what seems to be working. Our club has started a summer pattern series called "Props and Brats". Once a month, we have a 3 round, couple of hour long afternoon pattern contest, which is closely coupled with .... EATING!!!! Yes, that's critically important; a cookout on the grounds really brings folks out. Patricipation follows the 80/20 rule. We have up to ~8 guys that will fly, but usually 20 or so in the pits pigging out...and watching. Our guys are usually good about turning out for a club function, and this is a good venue.
We're coming to our closing two contests in 'championship series' (points accummulate through the summer), then it's off for the winter. I could go on about the details, but it is a pretty simple concept. The bottom line is this; we as pattern pilots can increase participation if we're willing to work at it. Yes, it does take work, but the interest level has grown, and this weekend I hope to have 3 new guys travel to their first ama pattern event ever. There; greenies joining the ranks...Don't say it can't be done - go do something about it. If anyone wants more details, I'd be glad to share them...I usually do at the contests I go to. I think our guys have really enjoyed it.

I think many would be interested in how you go about your club level contest. I know I would.

Ken

Ok....but I'll start another thread so as not to hijack this one. Look for "Props & Brats"......
If it wasn't obvious, I don't think that more structure around the Nats, or the general pattern communitly will grow the sport. I flew at the Nats this year in Intermediate, and it was like a local club contest; 24 fliers at site 4. Very lean, casual, and short. Int's got their rounds done in 1-1/2hrs. each day.

If you had to qualify for the NATs, it would die. It being stuck in one part of the country is already a strike against it; not like the old days when it traveled. In a given year a bunch of qualified fliers could get stuck with other obligations and be no shows. Local contests is the biggest problem . One day contests would help. Maybe points should be tallied per contest day. Two day contest has double points available. So someone flying 4 one day contests could equal with someone flying 2 two day contests. A one day contest would fly better to the gripers complaining about closing the field. Yes the farm team contests will not put lots of planes in the air, but they will be flying and showing off to others who may want to join in. There will be minuses for sure, but a local or within an hour drive contest twice a month and the "big " contests where the bigger group shows, and then NATs for the biggest grouping.

Airframe spec is such a problem. High end equipment should be discouraged in Sportsman. IAC sequences are set buy flying and "average plane" for the classes. A CItabria should be able to win their lower class; having a Yak 55 will not help you. Masters is set so you need an Extra to be competitive . That is the way pattern should be. Yes it really is about the pilot, but if someone shows up in Sportsman with a Masters airplane, it is a big put off. Sportsman should be a gathering of 60,90 size models and the class should be scored where they should beat a top end 2M. You want people to try pattern, more than once, the sigma of having a 2M has to go. Once they decide they want to pursue Pattern they can move on to better equipment.

The format is fine the way it is. A pilot thinks he/she is ready to move up..., move up. The scoring system will sort that out on it's own, with all things being fair and equal. The last thing we need are more rules and regulation to a sport that is struggling to maintain an identity. Our ranking system is the consistent finishes in all the class at the NATS. The same people attend every year, mostly every year... The rank and file of finishing orders. The same can be said for the local district standing. People move up, maintain or move down and it's called competitiveness of self evaluation.

The pattern community can do one major thing to help it's cause........ Establish a fair and reasonable price for a two meter plane that costs on average 2K for an air frame only. We can purchase top of the line competition 40% IMAC ARFs for less. Get a handle on that and pattern will grow again.......

Bill

What Bill and TFF is true, but I've been to more than one contest where (in sportsman) the guy with a full-blown pattern ship was put to shame by a kid with a lesser axe.

As an aspiring pattern pilot, who has yet to compete, at the ripe old age of 61, this makes a lot of sense to me. A "good" sportsman pilot with a Sig 4 Star should be able to if not win place in the top 5 or 10. Well maybe a 4 Star is a little farfetched but you get where I'm coming from. Maybe disallow any air frame over a XX wing span and XX engine size in sportsman?????? After you move up from sportsman I would think any air frame should be allowed.

I certainly would be in favor of one day contests. Especially if you could find those contests within a two to three hour drive. That would be manageable in my book. The two day events with the overnight stay and possibly even a second night so you can get in a day of practice, drive the cost of competition out of my price range. Going to one or maybe two contests a year is not worth it. Your score totals would be low enough to eliminate you from any serious contention even if you are a good pilot.

On the other hand a one day contest once a month may very well inspire and dispel any of the above detractors???

In a nutshell.... get rid of the 2m stigma with limits on air frames in sportsman , more "local" contests, one day contests.

Ken

I started flying pattern with a Big Stik 60 at the age of 65. I had a very successful first year and managed to become District 6 Points Champion in Sportsman and moved up to Intermediate the next year. Sportsman can be flown with a decent sport plane successfully and some of the guys whipping me in intermediate are doing it with Sequences and other similar planes. Get something that can do the maneuvers and practice. Sportsman level is a very good learning experience and there will never be a shortage of help in any of the classes as yoou move up. Have fun.

Sheldon

I watched a young boy compete in Sportsman with a 14" wingspan spitfire. His pattern was in the box and he never past the far side of the runway. He took 2nd place. As I recall, there were 5 or 6 entries in sportsman at that contest. Sportsman was designed as an entry level to try pattern to see if you like it. Once you get to the point of flying a 2M plane, you should move up to intermediate.

I don't think, and this is only my opinion, that we should be awarding district champion in the Sportsman class. It only makes people stay in sportsman in hopes of winning a district championship. Without that, there is little incentive left to stay in Sportsman and dominate the class to the point that it deters new pilots from wanting to enter and try out pattern.

IMO, awards are a great motivator, and warranted recognition for earned acheivement. I know I always wanted to win, even in Novice (now Sportsman)
However, I don't think we should keep awarding/rewarding folks who don't comply with the advancement rules. Here's what they are for Sportsman, from the Comp. Rules & Regs.:

8.2.A contestant should advance through the classes as follows: A contestantshould move out of the Sportsman class at the end of the calendar year ofhis/her second or subsequent year of participation if he/she places first orsecond and above at least 4 other contestants (having recorded an officialflight) in any sanctioned pattern contest.

Like most of AMA's regs, advancement rules are worded poorly, and should be re-hashed. But they're there for a reason. There are a lot of guys that just won't move up; fine, if you're not taking first places and championships away from those abiding by the rules. That's a CD/Comp. Board issue, but one lacking attention.
But I digress.....

11

Monte, If you get District 6 Champ in Sportsman, that automatically moves you up to Intermediate. At least it has for the last couple of champions. Neither I or David stayed in Sportsman after winning the District. Also, although it was before my time, I believe Ron Shirley won District in 2013 and moved up to Intermediate also. Peer pressure works wonders at moving people up.

Sheldon