I will be building my first pattern plane this fall. It is a PL Products Flashdance (the 3D version of the Excellence). My question to you guys is this.

Which engine mount should I use. I've seen the ZN Line, the Hyde mount, and PL Products has their own (carbon fiber) design now too.
They all look very similar. Is one better than the other? Are there good and bad points to each one? or are they all as similar as they look and it doesn't really matter.
Should I use the nose ring? Hyde has one mount that incorporates the nose ring support in the mount. Is it better to have the nose ring mounted to the cowl?

I plan on using a YS 140DZ and a carbon fiber tuned pipe.

Thanks, Jim

Hi

I did a short comparsion of the various engine mounts, do have a look if you haven't. Under Articles -> Technical Section.

Regards

Thanks, but that doesn't really tell me what I want to know.

They all look very similar. Is one better than the other? Are there good and bad points to each one? or are they all as similar as they look and it doesn't really matter.
Should I use the nose ring? Hyde has one mount that incorporates the nose ring support in the mount. Is it better to have the nose ring mounted to the cowl?

Now I've heard of another mount called the Kato engine mount. Does anyone know anything about it?

Thanks, Jim

The best mount would be the Hyde mount. They are used by most pattern pilots, and is known to have excellent vibration dampening qualities. This makes the model and equipment last longer.
For noserings, if you are using a soft mount, like the Hyde, what happens is, that the engine mount flexes alot. That means that you need a nose ring to support the engine, and prevent it from moving.

Hammbone

Either the Hyde or ZN mount will be the best choice, the ZN is a little fancier and has specific mounting pattern to fit the L or DZ engines.

Personally I think the ARI Hyde (nose ring incorporated) is not as good. The thrust line can move as the mount must support the entire weight of the engine since the nose ring is not anchored to the fuse. You must have a robust firewall to support the extra stress. A separate nose ring mounted to the fuse maintains 100% accurate thrust (unless the fuse move, baaaddd).

I have heard the early PL mounts were failing, neither Wolfgang or Roland were using them in Ireland I found out because of failures they were having, possibly that is resolved now I dont know. The other thing is they mount from inside the fuse so you need clear access to the rear of the firewall to remove the mount.

If I didnt already own a couple of Hydes I would get the ZN mount, light and cool looking plus well proven in competition.

The newest Hydes (light versions) look really weak, I am not sure how well they would hold up over time.

This is not a professional preference, but a preference because of the weight and the ability to add or subtract a touch of right thrust by loosening a screw. It also provides for a really clean installation. It has also been through several design genertations and keeps getting better. I have never seen one fail and I see them flow often.

The Hydes are nice too, but heavier and bulkier. I have also seen some ultra light Hyde copies, but the dampers were failing (too light, eh? Nothing beat OEM).

Mark

Thanks for your input guys! That is the kind of information I was looking for.

Happy Flying, Jim

One more suggestion is the Gator mount...it's a more conventional mount, very simple and does a very good job of reducing vibration without needing a nose ring. Reasonably priced as well (under $40).

Merle's mounts are superb. Yes the ZN mounts are nice but pricey...I have built many many ZN and PL kits and I can say for the Flashdance (because of the NACA ducts on the side of the fuse) go with a standard Hyde AR mount. Its like $120 and then mount a nose ring in the front of the fuse. Central Hobbies has these items.

What is the problem with the Smaragd, Excellence, Cyclone (3d smaragd), and Flashdance (3d Excellence) is that the Naca Ducts on the sides of the fuse are used to help cool engines like the DZ and OS 140 EFI. If you use some of the other motor mounts you will have big spacers behind the motor mount in order to put the firewall behind the NACA duct openings....With a standard Hyde AR mount the spacer is minimal and if you drill your mounting holes as far forward as possible on the beams no spacer is needed. The Hyde is maintenance free and I have mounts that are from 1994-1995 that are still in good shape. Merle is a an excellent guy to talk to about his mounts and he can build anything special you may need. In fact My best advice is to not go with a custom version just use the standard 140 mount this way it can drop in and out of different planes.

If your a light freak (which we all are) Merle makes an AR (A) which is very light mount with aluminum beams. Mine weighs just 2 ozs. But the problem in the PL kits is those NACA ducts and the firewall placement. I used just a straight Hyde AR mount and had no spacers between the motor mount and the firewall.

The PL kits come with a Carbon Nomex firewall. Although it seems very stiff, its not stout enough for a Hyde ARI mount. I know I tried. It was flexing. The ARI versions are very nice but require a very stiff firewall. Like 1/4" aircraft grade ply. If your putting it in a PL Smaragd or Excellence type of plane the firewall is huge and you will be adding tons of weight. Go with the Carbon Nomex and a Fuse mounted Nose ring.

The ZN mounts are very sexy and work the same.....But they are only setup for the YS motors. If you ever wanted to play with a EFI the mount will not accomodate it. N9ot to mention the price is pretty high over here in the US or Canada. Merle's mounts are just as good and have a proven track record.


The best motor choice bar none is the YS 140 DZ. Chad, Quique, and myself all flew DZs in the Artistic Aerobatics event at the NATS. Quique really showed us the power of the motor and how really good it is in the 3d application. The DZ is an awesome powerplant with a great temperment. I know of very people having any problems with them and in most cases it is operator error. The motor runs like a .46 stroke and only asks that you use a heli type of fuel for maximum performance. I use Cool Power 30% heli Performance fuel. It is by the best stuff I have ever run in a YS motor. The DZ loves it and everybody that is running this fuel raves about the performance of the DZ. Some other guys are having luck with the Powermaster and other fuels but the Cool Power is easier to get and performs great.

Thanks Troy, Especially for the specific info on the NACA duct openings. I guess I will go with the Hyde AR for that reason alone.

If I understand you right, are you saying that the PL honeycomb firewall is strong enough when used in conjunction with a fuse mounted nose ring? The firewall needs no extra support when used with a fuse mounted nose ring? That was another question I had.

What prop are you guys using on the DZ?

Congrats on your 2nd place finish in the A.A. at the NATS! What plane were you flying?

Thanks much, Jim

The Carbon Nomex firewall is fine with a fuse mounted nose ring. The only extra support I would recommend is some hard wood inserts to keep the nomex from crushing. I use dowels. I use a brass tube and cut only one side of the Firewall. The back (or fuse side) then cut dowel slices to fit and epoxy them in. Then sand flush to the backside of the firewall. With the Carbon intact on the front face (engine compartment side) there will not be any problems with oil or fuel getting to the wood. And it makes for a stronger structure. The hardwood insert will act as a compression component in the firewall and will keep the nomex from crushing.

Its fast and easy and I have done it several times. One plane had about 1400 flights on it and my current Smaragd has about 175 with no problems.

The AA thing was fun. Chad and I actually were just smiling and having a blast. I was flying my Smaragd with the exact same setup as I fly it in F3A stuff. In fact my plane was only fueled up from the that morning when I flew the warm up flights for the F3A finals.

Quique's Plane and Quique's skill really showed what the AA event is suppose to be about. I think its time to build a plane dedicated to the AA event.

Regardless it was blast and I'm glad we had an opportunity to be a part of it.


Props on the DZ...The 16.5-12W APC is excellent but can get a touch noisy. My motor was running 8700rpm on Cool Power 30% heli and I used my travel adjust to dial it back to 8100rpm. At this my sound was great at 89 dB and I still had tons of steam. Quique says the 17-12 APC is good also and that is what he was running on both his F3A model and the AA model. It does take some noise away and I think it might be a good one. I'm flying a 6000ft elevation and the 16.5-12W works best up here. I will experiment some more with the 17-12 when I'm down lower.



Troy

Thanks a lot Troy!, Those dowels sound like a great idea to keep it light and keep from crushing the nomex.
I think I'll try the 17 x 12 prop since I'm down lower in altitude.

Thanks again, Jim

Troy, I enjoyed your analysis of the DZ. What is your opinion of the Webra 145 aero X?

I have not run one yet

Sorry I have not run one yet.


I have run the OS 140 both the RX and EFI but I have not run a Webra as of yet.


I was not happy with the performance of the OS. It runs well and makes tons of power.....but the spool up and spool down properties of the 2 stroke make it tougher to fly in Precision stuff.

If all you wanted was to be at 3/4 to full power all the time it is a good motor. The motor in my opinion doesn't make enough power when its not running a pipe. Now remember I'm at 6000ft also. When its running a tuned pipe its power is very good....but the pipe kicks in at a certain RPM and from what I have experienced this boost makes flying precision tougher. You can play with throttle curves and play with props and play with tuning the exhaust be it never goes away.....

The problem is go into a 4 pt roll at say 1/3 throttle and half way through you need a couple clicks of power because the air is lumpy and you came into it too slow...or your slowing down because of the knife edge flight.....The motor will spool up and in some case you may get onto the pipe and then the plane will leap to speed.

Another example the vertical up lines yes you have tons of power but if you start the upline with not enough throttle setting then before the motor can react your slowing down and starting to torque off.

The YS 140 DZ has the same top end power but I rarely find myself using it all.

The reason being that the power is much more spread through the throttle range. If you need a couple clicks thats what you give it. The motor spools up and down quickly so the change in power setting is very quick and you can be behind it a bit and still recover. The 2 stroke makes the work load much more......


Some people are using 4 blades and 3 blades on the 2 strokes....This is quieter but not efficient. We are not trying to pull a P-51 through air at 30,000ft. The loss of performance really hurts our models....The DZ has great brakes like all 4 strokes with standard props.

I know many people like the less parts count and the price difference of the 2 strokes...but I'm flying the DZ because it gives me the best advantage. Period. Last year I ran the OS EFI and liked the top end and lived with the other problems. When I changed to the DZ full time my flying got better because I was not having to fly the motor too. Just stick the stick at the speed you need to fly. If you need more then give it a couple...less then reduce it. This is much tougher to accomplish with the 2 strokes.



My opinion and who knows I could be wrong! Just the reason I fly what I do......It was a hard choice for me because of the elevation I fly at. The DZ came out about 2 years after the OS 2 stroke and in my mind it was worth the wait.


Troy