Hi Guys,
I got a Carl Goldberg Finesse kit for cheap. It is certainly a dated design, and as I understand it is from the size restrictions on engines. The span is 72.5" and is set up for retracts and has a slim body style. Would this be suitable for the current maneover schedules or is it too fast? What engines would you guys reccomend for this plane? The wings seem really thin. I am new to the sport and currently fly a Bravo 303 with a ST90. Would this be a good step up for me, or should I sell it and get one of the new inexpensive 2 meter ARF's.....Arresti, Icepoint, etc. ????? Any info that you guys could provide on this plane would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Steve

ok a couple of quick questions. I see you're in D3 so I know what you're up against (or could be).

What class? Sportsman, intermediate, advanced?

What are your goals? IE do you want to go for that trophy, or just have fun and goof off and not put too much into it?

That plane would be great if you can find an old YS 120 from a reputable person, or even a TT 120 Pro RE pattern engine with a little tweaking.

It would do fine down there in the wind under certain conditions, but keep in mind that plane was meant to fly fast and smooth.

I'm sure you're about to hear 100 different opinions, so I'll offer mine straight up and let you decide after you answer those questions.

-Mike

Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I started in pattern as a way of becoming a better pilot...smoothness and precision. The more I fly, and the more I realize how much I suck, the more determined I am. A couple of big name pattern pilots fly at my field, but I am still doing "Teach Yourself Pattern" I may compete when I get better, but right now I want a ship that can see my skills improve. I am flying Sportsman. Goofing off and not putting much into it is not my approach to flying, although my disciplined approach is still fun for me! So, yes I am serious, but have a long way to go before I start setting my sights on trophies.
1st Pattern plane GP Tracer with TT Pro .46 Flew like a bat out of hell, and had trouble staying in the box.
2nd Pattern plane BHM Bravo 303 with ST 90 Flew nice untill I added a tuned pipe and now it flies like a bat out of hell and I have trouble staying in the box.
3rd Pattern plane CG Finesse with TT 120rp? Will it also fly like a bat out of hell?
BTW, I understand about the tossup between too close (smaller area) and too far (hard to see). Mike, I appreciate your no BS responses to posts here on RCU. I've followed pretty much everything you write, so don't hold back!
Steve

ROFL! My "no BS approach"? Okie dokie then, here's my thoughts. BS free

If you want to get better, the Finesse will be great. it will fly much better than the planes you have currently, and it's primary design is of the wind tracking variety. It's a "tracker" like the Prophecy, just a little smaller. That's why the wings are so thin, it's made to fly like a bat out of hell and penetrate. If you fly it, prop it with a steep pitch and fly it that way. if you try and slow it down like some of the fatter current designs, it'll mush on you. Don't screw around with fixed gear, hook up those retracts and pull em in! (they are legal in sportsman starting next month BTW).

The TT pro 120 is a decent engine, I had one myself. I only found it lacked the super low idle that I liked, but it won't matter much on that plane. You may have to play with the pump and mixture to get it right though, it's not quite plug-and-play like the OS engines, but it's MUCH less of a headache than a YS. Of course if you have RVP close by, you may be just fine with a YS, he knows a few things about them.

Allrighty with that being said, this plane will make you better and you can even get your feet wet in competition. With enough fuel and a windy contest, you even have a better than average shot at winning in sportsman. Burn fuel and ask questions, don't be afraid to hit those guys up for input. If you don't, I will for you [>:]

Now with that being said, COMPETE!!!!! By ALL means go and compete as much as you can, and I mean 2005. You will be suprised how much everybody sucks under pressure, sometimes it's humorous. Heck I fly advanced and still feel like I suck. Every pilot worth his salt feels like he sucks and isn't ready sometimes...it means he's driven and paying attention. These are the guys that will be a handful one day. The only difference between you and the top guys at the Nats? Time and fuel, and some good coaching....and the willingness to listen and know when you're getting good advise, then having the cajones to do something about it. Even if you think it doesn't feel right...usually the fix to a problem feels VERY awkward at first. But believe me: you will learn more at one contest than you will flying 6 months at your local field, even with a good coach. Competition pushes you to fly better than you ever have before, and you learn SO much. You may think your loops rock, but you keep getting 5s and 6s....why? You'll find out, along with how to fix it.

And of course, if recent history holds true, you WILL need a 2 meter plane to compete "seriously" in D3, but maybe not in sportsman...no way to tell until teh season starts, you can't see sportsman guys coming...just BANG there they are. Don't let these other guys BS you, especially the upper guys who haven't actually had to fly these current schedules in this district. The competition down here can be downright bloodthirsty, but ya know what? It's bloodthirsty in a GOOD way. Everybody is friendly and talks a little smack with a laugh sometimes, when it gets intense and tight going into the last round, your opponent will be ever so happy to give you encouraging words like "ya know, I don't wanna put any pressure on you, but....if you choke, you lose. Just one dropped wing and you're beat. Don't blink. Oh yeah, and everybody's watching". Hehe. I'm sure that aggrivates some of the "nicest guys in pattern" (you know who I mean) but the truth is, when you're standing there going through it, you get it...you understand, and if you don't absolutely live for it, well there's always sport flying and last place The truth is only the people that can truly appreciate that sort of thing ever get dragged into it, be them 14 or 70, I have seen them ALL talk that smack, laugh, tease, choke under fire, or rise up and take the moment...and believe me, they get WARMLY congratulated by the other guys in thier class. And then everybody takes forever to leave after the contest, and can't WAIT till the next one. And you hear about us psychopaths flying in 12 degree weather with 1 inch of ice on the ground, 40 MPH wind, between rain showers, because we love it so much. None of us were this dedicated before competition, now we're all hardcore and loving it...and some of the best pilots you'll find, getting better all the time.

by the time you get to intermediate, you WILL need a full tilt 2 meter plane if you want the gold in these parts. The Arresti is good (but pay attention to Bob's mods), the Focus 2 is awesome, and the Icepoint....hang on the jury hasn't come in yet on that one. It looks very Japanese in nature, like the Tai Ji series. Of course down the road if you're a builder, I may have something special up my sleeve

But if you have the Finesse, build it and fly it, then drop some cash in fuel for practice...then as SOON as you can, step up and get a 2 meter, because when you do you'll know what you've been missing all this time. But most importantly, get in the air and practice, and get you some time in front of judges...if you go to one of the contests I'll be attending, I'll coach and call for you myself. I'll be at Ocala and Pensacola for sure, and Jacksonville later in the year. A lot of the others too, but those are the Florida ones I know I'll be attending.

Good luck, get out there and fly!!

-Mike

Very well said MH !

Steve Mike's advise is excellent. I flew the 2 meter Pioron version of the Finesse in 2002 and it's about the truest plane I have ever flown. The plane is best suited for the larger faster flying style that was done a few years ago and is still done today by at least half the competitors. If you are still doubting if the plane is good enough to compete than consider a newer design. The price of pattern is dropping all the time with excellent ARF's available such as the Arrestti 3 and the Icepoint for less than $500 each.
Bottom line is at the lower levels of pattern practice and skill is what makes the biggest difference. Mike

A couple of years ago, I built a Finesse with a TT1.20 RE and I think a 15-12 prop. IT was a good flying plane, but did like to fly fast. The guy I sold it to switched out the TT for an OS1.20 four stroke. I put a set of bolly fixed gear in it and it looked pretty modern.

and if you damage the canopy or bellypan along the way i have a one of each new i can sell you

Evil bad monkey man, you see? Thats what I meant by no bs, no holding back! Thanks for your insight and advice. Yes, I'm going to build this plane and fly the pants off it. I am going to try the TT 120 rp, as I was very impressed with my TT .46 pro, and the .91 fs. Any ideas on header and pipe to use with this engine? I'm not too hip on the idea of using retracts. Is there any such thing as sturdy retracts? Jeff-RCU, any tips on installing the fixed gear? I can't wait for pattern season next year. I need to just see one first, then try it. The only problem is that as active duty Army bomb squad, I think it is likely that I'll be in Iraq, but I'm going to press on. I have been burning a lot of gas, and feel as though my progress is slow. I think that means that I'm ready for some good coaching. Mike, I'll look forward to meeting you, and hope to be able to take you up on your offer to help. I'll be looking for advice during my build on this plane and will probably start a thread. I know most of the interest here is on new equipment. BTW, I ordered a set of plans from Gator RC for the Typhoon 2000 and have been following with interest your Tempest thread. Gator had a house fire recently and will probably be a while till I get the plans. Thanks all!
Steve

You are quite welcome sir. One thing though, if you go to a pattern contest just to watch, (and that's normal), you'll end up wishing you had entered before it's over. I promise you that much. You are going to be suprised how well you could probably do right off the bat. Especially if you start now and work heavily on your line control. Remember: ALL manuevers begin and end with a straight line. It's boring, it will surely draw jeers from the locals, but if you master that line and begin working HARD on rudder input and wings level, you're likely to be in the wood your first outing. But don't underestimate the power of a straight line, it's the root of everything.

Well I hope you don't get shipped out any time soon, Iraq sucks. And it's deadly as hell right now. Thanks for serving our great nation, I hope to meet you in a few months.

Oh and a slight clarification: I always say you need a 2 meter plane to really compete. I need to clarify that a little. Yes, a 2 meter plane really helps you a lot. Just do NOT make the mistake of confusing that thought with needing a $2000 composite eurokit. You don't, just a large, good design that is well trimmed and cranks when you want it to. It can be an arf, scratch built, wood, cardboard, whatever. You'd be suprised how competetive a pile of sticks can be. But being a full 2 meters long definitely helps, and you NEED power. The more the better. I just thought I'd clarify that, a lot of people think I mean you need a Partner or something...uh no. Absolutely not, just a large 2 meter plane. What it is specifically really doesn't matter, as long as you find your style and the plane matches it well. Some fly fast and large, some slow and constant speed (like me). The trick is to find a groove and work it. Make it look pretty no matter what it is and you will score well as long as the technical elements are in place. I like to groove slow and at the exact same speed like a smooth machine, and put the judges to sleep. When it works, it works well. When it doesn't....well.....

I strongly suggest getting a copy of the rules from AMA if you haven't already and study them. Study study study, learn what the downgrades are.

At any rate, enough out of me, I hope to see you next year, anything you need, advise, building tips, hooking up with people, whatever, let me know.

-Mike

Xrod,

You might try the Thunder Tiger header/pipe combo. I am using it on my 120 RP, a little heavy though at 7.8 oz. for pipe/coupling/header.

Total wt. of engine and exhaust system is 35.4 oz.

I used a Mac pipe (1092?) and header. For putting in fixed gear, I made one full former and one half former, and a piece the width of the landing gear to go between them and bonded the whole mess into the plane. Somewhere there's a "how to" or get somone to let you look inside there fixed gear pattern plane.

Mike, Would you explain a little farther on the tracker/penetrator type vs the widebody type? Especially for the lower classes needs.
thanks

Sure. It really comes down to style and presentation.

A "tracker" (that's not official BTW, just what I call it) was a plane designed for the older sequences, which had a lot of box exits in the lower classes, and the sequences themselves lended themselves more to a very fast, large, clean style of flying. This also has something to do with the older power limitations, as a 120 4 stroke simply wouldn't pull a plane as large as some of the more current designs. A 60 size 2 stroke SURELY wouldn't. In pattern, function dictates form to a great degree.

Along with the newer large power plants, namely the 140L and the large 2 strokes, this allowed the planes to be larger and flown slower overall. Momentum wasn't nearly as important with all that power at your disposal. Therefore, you are able to climb into a vertical at a lower speed and maintain that speed through the top without mushing and stalling out (wallowing). This also worked well with the newer schedules.

With some of the criteria for judging pattern being "grace" and "presentation", at upper levels good pilots discovered the advantage of a smoother, slower and more constant speed flight. Soon a lot of lower class pilots relized this too.

There is a lot more to it, but that's all that concerns us.

For the lower classes, this same thing holds true. If you're flying sportsman or intermediate and you have 6 pilots of all VERY comparable skill, the outcome is very often determined by 1/2 points. If you're flying about the same as the other guys, what sets you apart? Style, and presentation. If you have a good flowing style and presentation and your opponent does not, you will likely beat him. By 1/2 points, but remember....a good judge starts at 10 and counts down from there. If you're jerking and cranking to keep it in the box, you're naturally going to drop those 1/2 points faster. So, the larger plane along with the smoother slower style is an advantage. Period.

UNLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's very windy, and then all bets are off, everything goes the other way. By very windy I mean over 20MPH. Then a tracker really shines in the lower classes, as the wind correction skills are usually not up to high enough levels to handle a large plane in a lot of wind. That takes a LOT more work. Have you noticed what kind of plane has won intermediate at the nats for....oh as long as I can remember? Do some research, trackers always win that class at the Nats. It's also always very windy at the Nats. Actually this year the wind layed down for ONE round. Guess who won that round? Bryan Kennedy, with a widebody plane Check for yourself.

This is also why you'll notice most people praising prophecies and boxers for current day pattern also hail from very windy districts. Like the midwest for instance.

These are just my observations, nothing scientific, and the human encyclopedias of pattern will probably say I'm full of it. That's fine, to each his own. If you can match your style to a tracker and put it together at a very windy contest, you have a great shot.

BTW this debate over design didn't start with the current shedules, it started with the very beginning of pattern and will be going until the end. It's ever changing, this is just a small slice from right now, 12-04.

-Mike

what prop did you use on yuor TT120R?