tph1

My Feedback: (12)

After reading what seems to be going on with more than a few people, myself included, I think we need a pattern kit/parts supplier forum like the engine forums have. If we had that I don't think that the mainstream threads would turn into ***** sessions and with a moderator having to monitor less. Any thoughts?
I agree with several things that were said in another thread here. I am having problems too but I don't want to see every thread that involves a supplier turn into gripe session when we could have one on another board that is set up for that.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

I'll agree with that Tom. I know that Mark Novak who is associated with ZN posts here, as does Lee Davis of Piedmont. That's 2.....

As long as people have opinions, there will be arguements.

Personally I'd LOVE to see a support forum, THAT would alleviate one of the biggest problems that I personally have with pattern planes....LACK of support. I'l lleave the rest where it should stay, "over there".

-Mike

mvigod

If any vendor wants a support forum and agrees to monitor it frequently I will set it up for them at no charge. they can contact me if they are interested. we extend this offer to any mfg.

tph1

My Feedback: (12)

Cool, now maybe some will respond
thanks

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

If they do, we're one step closer to a solution to a major problem! Good stuff!

-Mike

Xrod

My Feedback: (2)

This forum has been a lot of help to me but one thing that I am a little dissatisfied with is that if I ask a question like plumbing a pumped engine, or adjustable stabs, I get zero response...nada. A thread on the latest ARF is all the rage. This is my connection to the pattern world, and wish that I could tap into the knowlege of all of you pattern fliers about building and flying! Sometimes I think the other people on this forum wish I would post on general questions and answers, and sometimes I think that if I did, I would get better results.

tph1

My Feedback: (12)

Xrod, Sometimes you get better results with that type of question on the NSRCA discussion board.

swk551

I get good ideas from this forum and the NSRCA discussion list. I bleieve we can get more insight on the merits of the idea if members would post more pictures. This is especially true with building tips and causes for failures. There was a thread on the 3d electric furum about a wing spar failure on the Quiet Storm. I believe the fix is trimming the spar joint for better fit up and installing a reinforcing plate with epoxy. The same holds true for the necessary landing gear block modifications. It sure would have helped if the thread had more pictures of the design issue and what the fix was when the problem was discovered. So...............post those pictures.

Regards - SWK

tph1

My Feedback: (12)

If we had the manuf. forum you could ask Fliton that question and get their response with pics.

Nathan

My Feedback: (12)

Maybe the forum you're posting your questions isn't the most relevent forum and isn't visited by those that could help? Just because my airplane is an ARF doesn't mean I should post an engine question in the ARF Forum. See what I mean? Not that you do this, just read that way to me.

Xrod

My Feedback: (2)

Plane Insane,
Yes I know what you mean, but tell me who would know more about adjustable stabs and pumped engines better than pattern flyers?

tph1, I've thinking about joining NSRCA, but have read that this forum is better. K-factor is not much oriented towards building and flying from what I could tell from a sample issue.

tph1

My Feedback: (12)

Once a member though you can go through the archived threads on about any subject there is in pattern. I agree the K Factor has some issues but the last one was head and shoulders better thatn what they have bee. They are on the right track to making it 1st class.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

IMHO the K Factor is one big Contest report from the different districts and thats about it. I just rejoined the NSRCA after many years away and the K Factor hasn't changed much since I left. I wish there were more "How to" articles in it. There has been some discussion on the NSRCA email list about just this and I hope the changes will happen soon. Here's the problem with it though, Who is going to write these? How many per edition? I ,for one ,would Love to see Eric Henderson do a detailed build and install of his elevator system. At times there have been articles like this in the K Factor and I just loved them. Anyone remember the "honey comb" foam wings thread there? It was a great thing. Maybe AeroBob can do a short burp about "Pattern 101 on a Dime", . THere's one column I always love to read and that was Dean Pappas, very informative.

Eric.Henderson

Don't worry,
I hear this from all of the folks that I know on RCU. It's not just you.
Sometimes we don't know the answer.
Sometimes we are too busy to answer and think that someone else will answer already.
Sometimes we know that the answer is just too big. e.g. Which is the best pattern plane?... WW3 waiting to happen with that one.
Sometimes we know that there are conflicting answers and don't want to go though it again.

I have some "groupies" who just wait in the wings for me to say one wrong word. I call them "Trolls" because they only come out from under the bridge to cause agrivation. Some of us have a nemesis or two out there who hit hard.

Most of the time we do respond. One tip - We do like it when someone has done the research (read, searched the forum), and then asks the question. Many times I'll just point people at an already written piece that they did not look for. Even if we are many years out school we still have to do our homework :-)

Please don't stop asking. After all, you have to be a bit determined to get what you want.

Regards.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

I would add to ask a very specific question, and be patient. If it goes a day or so without an answer, bump it up. If you need it faster, then ask someone specifically in a PM.

I was going to add more of the "why", but I thought better of it.

-Mike

rhonea

My Feedback: (1)

tph1,

I have sent an e-mail to RC Universe admin. asking them if it would be possible for me to offer info and support for the 2 manufacturers that I represent in the US which is PL Prod and soon to come BN Models. If they will allow me to do this than I am happy to do so.

tph1

My Feedback: (12)

that sound very promising Russ, maybe some of the others that represent different manufacturors will offer to do the same.

Troy Newman

Eric,

"Trolls" a very good name for them.

Those who know me understand that I'm willing to help ANYONE. I spend tons of time on email via one-on-one stuff and I also spend time on the phone with lots of different people, almost to the point that my wife gets frustrated with me. I think I have built 2-3 models via the telephone. So if you have a specific question feel free to email it to me. I'll help you out if I can…

This forum is full of experts. They know what they are doing, and when you have a specific opinion about how a product performs from actual experience they jump on you with in with the zeal of Germany 1935. Yet they may have little to no experience personally with the product, the idea, or the method. Instead they have an axe to grind on the subject.

Its really too bad. Rather than just having a different opinion Trolls attack the motives behind a product choice. When the real reasons we all choose what we choose is based on the level of performance we are willing to accept. For guys like me that have goals and challenges ahead that have not been met.... PERFORMANCE.....SERVICE, and RELIABLE SUPPORT are the keys to reaching our goals. The level performance that I'm willing to accept is mine and mine alone...I think my standards are pretty high. I have also flown Tony Fraks models and they are my goal in terms of performance. If I had my models fly as well as his then I could reach my goals. This is where I look for inspiration and the carrot in front of me. I have had the opportunity to fly really good models that were setup and trimmed very very well. Once you feel what its really suppose to be like you won't be satisfied with less either.

For flying things...I look to those guys ahead of me in the ranks. What are they doing that I can learn from. RCU is a really great opportunity for these guys like Don, Andrew and Chip to have forums that they can moderate. This helps minimize the Trolls. But they still creep in.

If you want to know why we don't touch certain subjects with a ten foot pole....Look no further than the people that stir the pot. You don't need to be an FAI level pilot to know what you are doing. And just because a guy is flying FAI doesn't mean he is good at what he does. My opinion is you should look to people that have had success and exhibit the results you are looking for. Regardless of if that is building a wood model from scratch, or if its making the USA Team. Your goals are your goals. Emulate and listen to the guys that are achieving what you hope to achieve some day. There is a lot to be said for imitation. What many don't understand is that when a guy that is 6 of 7 in Intermediate may not be the best choice to emulate. Example the SF 49'ers one of the NFL's best teams over the years....There is not one team in the NFL that would try to accomplish and do things like the 49'ers of 2004. Set your goals high. Emulate the guy that is doing what you want to do. There is lots of room for new ideas and there are lots of guys doing their own thing. We don't want carbon copies out there...but on the other hand a guy like me struggled alone in Wyoming and the stuff I learned was in many ways self taught. I'm always trying new things, and I'm always trying to improve the things I have problems with. This is in building, flying, and equipment. I was in the position that many of you are in….The question how do I make the stab removable…How do I solve this trim problem. I learned the hard way that just because a guy had a forceful opinion didn’t mean he was right! By the very nature of attrition the Masters and FAI guys have been around the block and they have seen it or tried it. Listen up when these guys talk. This is where I got the most useful information to help me out. Its not a case that a guy in Advanced doesn't know what he is doing.....Its just a simple case of experience plays a huge role. There are some Advanced-Intermediate or even Spotsman guys that are better at things than a guy like me. You have to have a filter on. The guys that have relationships with companies are not being paid. They have these realtionships because the companies trust their opinion. They have the relationships because the pilot believes in the product and is willing to put his name on it. They have the relationships becasue the pilot believes so much in the product that he is willing to answer questions about it, support the guys inthe field with theirs and be associated with the product they believe in. This is why companies Sponsor people. Its not a money thing. There are only a handful of peope that get paid to fly model airplanes. We all know who they are. The reason they get paid for their knowlegde is the same reason the doctor gets paid when he removes that wart from you rear end. He has the experience and knowledge that you value. Same with Sponsorships. The companies value the experience and knowledge the pilot has to offer. HE will help improve their product, He will help a guy at a contest when he has a problem with their product, He is a wealth of knowledge on the subject. There is not enough money in the world to keep a guy like Quique or Chip flying a product that doesn't meet their high level of acceptance or performance. Manufacturers know this and this is why they sponsor people. It's to show that their product meets the high standards of a given pilot. Its not to fool you into thinking a product is something that its not....Its to show what the product truly can do and accomplish.

This forum is a very wide brush stroke of the pattern community. Just because the guy has an email or talks like he knows what he is doing doesn't mean that it’s the right way to do things. It’s a matter of your specific level of acceptance. Rarely does the guy have a great idea post in on RCU and when it turns out to be a turd does he come on RCU and tell you all that the idea was a bad one. Instead you now have hungry guys that are starving for the knowledge trying things that may or may not be the best solution. The Right way in my opinion is the way it works. Does it meet your goals, your level of excellence. If you are willing to accept a certain level of work, or performance then it’s the right way for you. I will make this bet to almost anyone here. I would bet that I can make your plane fly better than it is today. Not that I’m the great airplane trimmer….I just think that many of us settle for a level of performance that is well below the models potential. I have touched only a couple models in my flying that I can honestly say there is nothing to improve. This includes my own models too. There are always things to improve and its up to you and your level of acceptance.

The Trolls thrive on controversy. They always have an opinion, and they always have reasons why the other guy’s idea is biased or motivated. This is the nature of the beast.
When guys stop listening to the Trolls they go away. Many of us just stop dealing with the topic and never look back. Its not worth it to us! There are too many guys that want the knowledge to bang heads with a Troll. Notice how when a Troll infiltrates a topic how the topic moves down the list. They are no longer in the lime light. They aren’t getting their names in headlines for their flying skills, their building skills, or any product they are involved with. The Troll then picks a new subject he is now the expert on. This is what they really thrive on! My choice is better than yours….Or I don’t have to do it that way to make it correct. Well look to the guys that have accomplished their goals and look to the guys that have the experience and knowledge to help you meet your goals. Many of them are willing to share.

robert

I'm one of those that emails Troy with all sorts of questions and he always gives a first class answer and I think he deserves recognition for his class act when it comes to his activity in this forum and this hobby.
Oh and all that about trolls.....been there done that. Some people take this hobby and forum way to seriously (I used to) and will do anything for a quick *****in match. In the end they look like such losers.
Robert

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Nice post Troy

I belong to a Automotive Technicians group and I could remove the R/C related words of your post and replace them with automotive related words and the post remains correct. It's the same everywhere so just ignore the ones that throw hand grenades.

Eric.Henderson

Troy,
I'll bet that you felt better after writing that? It is hard to not get a bit jaundiced. Ive been building planes that fly for 52 years and in R/C since 1975?

When I first got into model hobby writing I was blindsided, tricked, duped or whatever you want to call it, by certain behavior. The internet or e-mail is a technology that many use as a shield to hide behind, or at least hide their names and agendas.

My wife usually spots them before I do,. I'm still a bit gullable I guess. I now have a filter and a list of people with whom I exercise a lot of caution. I don't mind a guy who is arguing with me about a subject, EVER! You know that . I've gone a few rounds with you on pattern stuff, and will again. But I do mind when they attack me instead of the idea.

I have a weakness in that I don't always let the cheap-shot slide, and then I get distracted from the purity of what I an trying to achieve. (That's growth of our sport BTW). I went to a very old, all boys, school in the UK where you had to stand up for yourself or perish. Those learned skills are not always an asset in "text wars".

Most people are really nice to deal with. When you get more than two e-mails a day on your sport you will, of course, get a zinger once in a while. I expect that. Interestingly enough, when you open dialog with the sender it often becomes very enjoyable. This is because they care as much as you do, that's why they wrote in the first place - In the end it's just a matter of style of expression.

I do have a hard core "Troll" list. With each one I have had some form of conflict. It ranges from my role in actions such as disiplinary coversations to some serious non-publishable irregularites. Sometimes it is because I did not like their product. I accept that it can of course, in some cases, just be personality conflicts - ask any ex-wife, especially mine!

You know Troy, what I like to do most is help people. I think we both feel that is one of the main reasons why we are on this planet. I have coached sports for at least 40 years, always been a referee or a judge and invariably in some official capacity. I know how "sausage is made". I also know that what people want is not always what they need. :-)

I'm going to just keep on going with what I'm doing. I have two ARF's to review, a gadget to review, two warbirds to build for me - thanks Santa - and three Pattern planes to build. Somewhere in there I have a few pattern columns to write, get ready for the Nationals, be a father to seven kids, a grandfather to one and be a husband to the best hobby wife a man could ask for. Oh!, and yes start a new career...

Hows your year going to go - Troll-free I hope :-))))

Schpankme

PATTERN FORUM POLICY STATEMENT: The purpose of this forum is to provide a friendly environment for discussing things related to the construction and flying of pattern aircraft. Pattern pilots, builders and enthusiasts, are the intended participants for this Pattern Forum. The goals of this Forum is to serve as an information resource to its subscribing members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among builders and pilots; to promote the construction of safe, well-built aircraft; and to support the safe operation thereof. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the PATTERN FORUM.

To these ends, the following guidelines are offered as suggestions to use this Forum:

o PLEASE keep all posts related to Pattern at some level, by all means submit information on technology, alternative power plants, design improvements and the like.

o THINK carefully before you submit a post. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to other members. If you have to wonder, DON'T post it.

o REMEMBER that your post will be included for posterity in the archives, which is growing in size at a ferocious rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts.

o DON'T request information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the archives, FAQs or Manufacture webpage’s first.

o DO stay on "Subject" when responding to the original post.

o NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the subject at hand, but be selective.

o DO NOT respond to the thread unless you have something relevant to add, which will be of broad appeal. "Way to go!” "I agree” and "Congratulations" are all responses that
are better sent to the original poster directly.

o When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their post, unless you can truly contribute something valuable.

o DO NOT become a troll. Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and “respectful”. Don't make snide comments, personal attacks or take the
moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.

__________
Schpankme

Eric.Henderson

Good suggestions.

Sorry if I got a bit long on the "respond or not" bit.

I would like to see a consumer section for issues as stated in the first post.

tph1

My Feedback: (12)

The reason I made the suggestion at the beginning of this thread was for trying to get supplier and munf. to post answers to our questions. It was not meant as a forum etticate thread. I thought if the admin. saw a good response they would let the suppliers have seperate section. That way we could sidestep some of the gripe sessions these turn into sometimes and avoid the so called "trolls" getting on someones nerves and starting a rant ( I think I just ranted).
Tom

Eric.Henderson

Tom,
I fell into the elephant pit trap as well.

Now, thinking about what you said. This is tricky stuff. Manufacturers, vendors etc. advertise a lot on this site, but we could have a "consumer findings" type of topic as a catch-all for open complaints?