crasherama

There shop will dissapoint you its nothing flash, I will take some pics next time I am in there and post it on this thread, were they are situated is a small village, its not even a market town, the road they are on has been suplanted by motorways, but is still busy and narrow, therefore dirty, the shops what ones there are get very dirty facade's, they are mostly an export and mail order company now days. Just don't wont you to have a dissapointing visit time will be at a premium I'm sure when you get here. Perhaps I can dirrect you to some exciting places when you are over as during May, June, July there are quite a few shows on conntact me nearer the time and I will try to help.

Mike

To all

Now fitted a 4S 70 into the Groovy and taken out 160grams of lead everything else stayed in place and cofg in the correct zone, will report back if the increase in power was neccesary or indeed too much.

Mike

Hi Baldeagle,

Thanks very much for the thought. I will let you know what my plans are down the track a bit when we know more.

I have been looking at others too, & have seen that Sussex Model center also carry their stock. Looks like a fairly large shop, & only a short train ride from where we will be in Crawley.

Good luck with the groovy with the new power plant,

Tony.

Tony

Yes Sussex Model Centre is more of a neat and tidy shop, not big but a large stock in the back.

Weather looks good for tomorrow will try the Groovy with the new engine and report back.

Mike

Used SMC mail order UK -> AU crasharama. Trustworthy to deal with IME. Good follow up to a problem which occurred. Recommended. Family business isn't it Baldeagel? From the contact names, looks like father and sons - or brothers to me (without actually knowing knowing SMC history) rather than a chain or franchise. On the south coast I think, so could make it an "Oh I do like to be beside the seaside" dual purposed (+ sightseeing) trip when you're over there crasharama.

Look forward to hearing the flight report on your Groovy Baldeagel. I suspect you'll like it with the .70 up front. More on parity with the kind of peak power a gutsy Schnuerled .46 or .50 puts out, only torquier. If you're going to carry ballast, it may as well earn it's keep. [sm=idea.gif]

Hi Sigrun,

Thanks for that, yeah will be having as much of a look around as we can when we are off.

Tony.

Sirgun and Crasherama

Yes SMC are a lone hobby shop dealing with customers direct, in fact I bought my H9 Miss America from them, I actually went down to the shop to collect it as I wanted to inspect the kit before purchase, good service and friendly, don't get me wrong service and freindlieness is also prevelant at Westons its just not somwhere I would reccomend you visit if your time is limited over here.

Winds over here are in the 25:30mph region at the moment, still did not stop me from trying the 3A with the 70 4S in it, I left the cowl off as I had not had a chance to start let alone set up the engine. Started immediatly I put the starter on it and idled fine no adjustments needed to the idle mixture at all, ran it rich for the first flight, you know within 10 seconds if you have a dog or a good aircraft when it takes off, this one is a goody, on the first flight the only thing negative was the amount of down elevator needed to maintain level inverted, loops where straight so lateral ballance seems Ok, Knife edge has some roll coupling, spins straight down will try flat spins later, stall in the wind non event will have to try in no wind conditions. Brought it in for a greased on landing which is hard on grass with the blustery conditions, very pleased with this flight and engine. Next took the last bit of lead off the bulkhead only 35grams sorry 1and 1/4onz and try again, difference in the needed elevator in inverted flight suprise suprise but still needed what I think is excessive movement, will look at the cofg position and report back after I get it back to the workshop. I did reinforce the bulkhead and undercarridge mount maybe I added too much weight will investigate. Second flight another good flight even without the lead the elevator is still not sensitive and ailerons are perfect at the designed movement, with the 70 4S in it running rich this is a much better aircraft, should have had it in first not the 60 4S, conclusion I think a 46 2S may be a bit marginal for the designed intent of this plane i.e. 3A schedule, but it will fly it but not with authority.

Will report back on the cofg location later today.

Mike

Sirgun

Sorry did not answer all of your queries, I think the shop is Father and son and others as you say, yes it is by the coast quite a nice piece of coast as well not far from the famous Brighton and the Pavillion which is in fact a Morish Pallace worth a visit crasharama, and a good excuse to drag her who must be obeyed down to SMC.

Mike

Well Chaps

I have re-checked the cofg and its at 143mm behind the wing LE, with the recommended 135mm in the instructions that makes my cofg 8mm behind the suggested position not too drastic a change but significant never the less, will keep on testing and reporting back I will not move it back any further until I have had a chance to fly in better conditions and dial in some extra down movement on the elevators therefore giving more movement conpared to stick position.

Mike

Those winds I was talking about are now up too 50:60mph everything in the garden is flying all over the place, most of the birds are grounded, that reminds me the winds on Saterday were a little more placid but where the first SW we have had in a while, so the House Martins had there first opertunaty to cross the English Channel from France and came over to Kent, you chaps up north keep an eye out, can't wait for my resident Swallows that nest on my veranda outside the office to arrive. Sure signe that summer is on the way.

Wonder off into the distance sinning
"The sun has got his hat on shout hip hip horray"
"The sun has got his hat on and is comming out to play"

Mike

Coupla' things Baldeagel.

First a question. Does the Groovy 3A wing have any inherent angular dihedral, other than provided by sweepback?

Then, a point upon which I beg to dissent. Not to start a 2 stroke vs 4 stroke war of words here. Each to their own. But a remark you made is simply unsupported by the reality of my experience or the math, and does need pointing out for the benefit of the reader who might be considering having a go at pattern with purchase of the Groovy 3A as his first sport pattern style model, but put off not wanting to outlay on a pricier four stroke to power it. No dispute, according to the instructions, The World Models have marketed this particular model with the express perception that the end user will put a 4 stroke aboard if the instructions are to be regarded as any indication, as there is no mention or advice for an alternative 2 stroke fitment that I recall in looking at them. But I would suggest that is a more a function of marketing to contemporary trend or fashion, neither performance nor design actually prohibiting it.

Now I know you're not a 2 stroke fan but...

Take it from one who is, a Schnuerled .46 like the FX/[link=http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/line_up/engine/air/aircraft/airindex.htm]AX[/link]/TT Pro actually puts out more power than the [link=http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/line_up/engine/air/single/sinindex.htm]O.S. 70S II[/link] The user just needs to prop it appropriately to operate and maintain the RPM within the optimum band delivery range, which of course ties in with being suited to the model weight, size and form (drag). Not only will a .46 have sufficient power for the 2006 Sportsman sequence with aplomb in the Groovy 3A provided weight is kept within cooee of max. spec range, but it will have greater excess power available than with the 70S II. This is taking into account real world performance delivery even if sceptically factoring manufacturer's spec., which are arguably equally optimistic "bench-test, best case, propped for peak power" in both examples. What the 2 stroke doesn't share, is the torque, either in magnitude or delivery along the power curve. Other than as an operating preference, this is actually immaterial to the applicaton.

Ergo, to suggest a .46 would be "marginal" is just plain factually untrue. Now I know you own the Groovy, but the model's spec. supported by the math and experience simply says otherwise. Operating such a design or similar effectively with a .46 2 stroke is just a matter of knowledge and technique. See my gallery that I've just started working on and have a look at my "Home Run" in particular which is easily the wing span and area of the Groovy with an equally massive if not greater fuselage side area. It weighs in at a whopping 2.7kg dry, which is indisputably heavy for a pattern competitive model in this class, yet manages to perform the current Sportsman sequence without baulking or issue on ...a humble TT Pro46! (Almost identical power delivery to the AX's predecessor the FX) A smaller, lighter and cleaner Phoenix Comet at 2.5kg eats it for breakfast with the same class engine, although its older design heritage whilst both slipperier and lighter, requires greater finesse as it tends to easily 'g' load with over-enthusiastic (ham-fisted) control application, bleeding speed to further load the prop and can easily end up at the undesirable end of the drag curve running out of puff. But later designs like the Phoenix Laser (circa early 2004 and effectively a clone of GP's Venus 46, but with a distinctively redesigned rudder shape - remodified by me) with a .46 aboard but weighing in at just 2.4kg, much more like the Groovy sans contemporary cosmetics, just keep getting easier and better.

The difference lies in the way they are flown, the aircraft must be flown using a different technique rather than relying upon the sheer torque of a four stroke to haul the model around like a tractor through, on or from behind @rse end of the drag curve. If a 70S II can fly the sportsman pattern whilst developing a meagre peak 1.1bhp if operated at and developing peak power, even using the moderate 1.47bhp spec figure of the 46FX rather than the 1.65bhp of the current AX, it can do so with ease if kept anywhere near 'the band' and developing just an equivalent 75% (1.1bhp) of it's potential peak 1.47bhp, or in the case of the AX, 67% of its peak easily achievable with anything approaching appropriate propping assuming the attempted manoeuvre is not betrayed by ham-fisted entry speed misjudgement and poorly timed throttling, allowance for lesser torque in flown technique notwithstanding. Those are simply the figures which don't lie, supported by real world experienced examples. [sm=sunsmiley.gif]

Just wanted to clarify the point. Importantly, IME this model - Groovy 3A 50 - would seldom be used to compete beyond Sportsman sequence, at most for initial outings only in Advanced, although anyone promoted beyond Sportsman would almost certainly be planning to or have acquired a 2M model or at the least, something in the 90/120 class assuming limited economic means a factor, if wanting to develop, remain competitive or in the running for placings IME.

No offence intended. Just passionate about 2 strokes and can't abide mythology propogation which, albeit unintentional, is invariably perceived and becomes accepted as veritas through regurgitation.

Cheers,

sigrun

Blue sky, moderate cumulus with a speck of higher cirrus in a virtually windless autumn sky with moderate temp circa 24 deg C at 11.15am local here in Brisbane. Wish it were so for you to conduct your tests. We're pretty fortunate in that we can fly all year around, although this - late March through early June- is the best time of the model flying year over here. Clear blue windless skies, crisp and pleasantly cool in the morning, with moderate humidity and rising to pleasantly sunny temps in the peak of the day. Just Purrr..fect! Superb for ab initio training. [:-]

sigrun

"Blue sky, moderate cumulus with a speck of higher cirrus in a vrtually windless autumn sky"

sigrun I hate you, in fact I am going to get up early tommorow so I can hate you a bit longer.
only joking of course.

The Groovy 3A has no dihedral each wing half slides onto a aluminium and composite spar, which is eqadistant from the top and bottom of the wing.

As to the 4S 2S debate we will have to differ on most of the points you have raised concerning power and the relative attributes of the different engines, I do not whant to get into a big debate about this but your quoted power figures for the 4S is down on actuall real time and your quoted figures for the 2S are up on what they realy achive, however the difference in responce time whilst powering up from the 4S too the 2S is worth staying with the 4S, if its the choise of all the competetors in the world F3A championships who were using IC its indisputable that the 4S is the best choise for this discipline.

Incidently I have more 2S than 4S so I rearly do not have a bias one way or the other, 2S just tend to be better for all out speed because they sound fast revving like there is no tommorow.
My highly tuned Webra 50 will go to 22,000rpm on a 9x8 and produces only just 2bhp measured not not taken from manufactures litrature.
I have never measured my Pico 60 but it certainly turns a big prop with authority, but tends to be a top end engine pulling from low revs is not its thing.
Horse's for Course's as it were.

Your bias is showing tuck it in, no offence intended.

Mike

Ok Guys

Confession time dumb thumbed the Groovy on landing, still had the rates on full with ailivators as well as I approuched the landing spot one wing dipped, overcorrected with the high rates and cartwhelled the thing into the deck, supprisingly little damage, already repaired the fus just some damage to the rear behind the wing where it slew back and punctured the balsa, ripped off one landing gear leg that will be more difficult to repaire as it already has carbon tows and fibreglass on it, the mounting ply has sheared down one of its laminations, my thoughts are to take out the bolts and put another ply plate above the originall and bolt straight through, Only one wing damaged the fibreglass joining spar guide ripped out of the wing and broke up some of the ribs, so have removed the top balsa sheeting and effecting reparies as I post.

This all gives me a chance to get rid of the colour sceme it came in and add some individuallity. Any suggestions for a scheme chaps?

Mike

Hi all

Decided on the re-build to stay with the standard colour scheme as all the trim peeled off in almost one piece so less to cut out on re-decorating, all back in one piece except for the cowl which I am going to have to reinforce around the cracks in it, the cowl survived supprisingly well with only cracks and no real splits will post pic soon.

Mike

Sounds like it is coming back together nicely.
Tony.

Hi all

I posted this on another Groovy site, but thought I would put it on here as well. this was before I stuffed it.

Running the Groovy last week in no wind it would not take off from the grass patch, which was not that long, so programmed in positive flap on the side slider of my Tx and it poped into the air no problem, have any of you guys had a problem with excessive take off length?

MIke

BaldEagel,

You have given me hope. I have been looking for a good plane to get back into pattern after a 10 year hiatus. I have an OS 61RF with pipe that I was hoping to use. Any way you could measure the distance from thrust centerline on your Groovy to the bottom of the firewall? I would be interested to see if I could get that header for the pipe over the wall and work that blue belly pan (you said it was glass?) into a pipe tunnel.

Thanks,

Matt

Matt

Have a look at the pic, from the centre of the crank to the flat area behind the engine is 50mm to the top of the fibreglass belly pan its 90mm so this makes the belly pan 50mm deep because there is a 10mm fall on the flat area towards the engine bulkhead, the only problem I can see with what you are proposing is possitioning the battery to get the correct cofg may not be a problem if your engine is heavy enough, I had to put my battery right behind the belly pan front vertical to ballance without weight.

Hope this helps, let us know how you get on, and post some pics of the mods.

Mike

Matt

Better pics I hope, if you require any more info please ask.

Mike

Well all I have decided that this aircraft is a dog, having now flown a pals CML Javalin S 90 the yellow one, there is no comparison, I will now have to spend some hours trying to trim out all the anomalies in the control response of this airframe.

I will persivere untill I write it off or get it flying properly, I will report my progress on this site .

MIke

Well the c of g is way off needs to be at least 10mm behind the recommended, but a more fundamental problem is the declarge its negative rather than 1 to 0.5 positive incidence on the tail I have 2 deg negative, not wonder the thing will not take off unless I droop the ailerons as flaps, still I said I would persevier until I write it off, well I have, we had some very bad glithches on site over the week end I only just managed to save my small Yak, but the groovy went straight in from about 5ft when it went inverted by itself, so the whole thing is now accademic. I have to admit I am not dissapointed it save a lot of work and I can now go and get a true plane, this thing just did not fly true.

MIke

"Herbieplane"

[link=http://theworldmodels.com/para/products/airplanemodels/review/A189.pdf]Groovy 50 3A review by Colin Chapman[/link]

I maidened my Groovy 50 3A today with help of a more experienced friend and it was a suprisingly nice flier. It was kinda hard to get CG to the right place with light YS63. I inverted the landing gear and moved battery pack to firewall=perfect 135mm.

Tomorrow I am much wiser and make some minor adjustements. Elevator was too juicy anyway with suggested throws and needs to be cut half or 3/4.

sigrun

It was that review that made me buy it in the first place, I think in hindsight the 4S West 70 was not fully run in or operating at full potential, so I may be being a little unfair to the model, but as I said before its accademic now, its been one of those months where nothing seems to go the way it should and I have had a smashing time with most of the things I have flown, the West 70 ran a bearing and my West 50 (2S) also ran a bearing in the Hype thankfully with no damage to the Hype as that thing fly's in anything and at any speed. Incidently I am using the West fuel reccomended for those engines.

Have you got the Suki going yet?

Mike