With all the talk about the high costs of our planes and equipment...consider this.

What if there was a class that kept the current two meter, weight, and engine displacement rules.
But limited the radio to a straight four channel with no mixes or rates. No pumped engines. Even limit Nitro to 10%. (Hard one to enforce) Could go more bonkers and say wood only fuse instead of pricey laminates.

Many current designs would still work with modified control surfaces. A thicker trailing edge could produce an effective expo feel.

Don't get me wrong. I currently compete with some of the highest tech equipment available.

Just a what if?

I thinkthe current cost in pattern isnt the radios but acual airframes and the engines needed to power them round with your rules people are still gonna be tooling around with 600$ laser cut wood planes with the same 700 dollar engines servos etc.

Hi Bob. Are you Bob H. who spent a summer with us out in Colo? Myself and Rob Kelly have built some Killer Kaos's that weight under 5LBS with OS50's on them and they fly great . This would be a fun and cheap class of pattern to fly. The guy with the most skill would shine flying this plane . Jim

I think that the best wa to do it, is to define an engine and radio gear that you may be allowed to use. The engines and radio could be designed to show if it has been tampered with, to put better goodies in.
So, you could have a 2M (or smaller) airframe.
A standard cheapo, and maybe specially designed engine. Maybe a Thunder Tiger 120, or Irvine 150.
Standard exhausts.
Standard radio gear in the plane, something designed around 6kg torque, but no digital high speed coreless mini's. Maybe a price limit on the specific purpose designed servo, like say $15.

If there is alot of interest, then I am posotive that OS/YS/TT/Irvine/Futaba/JR would be more than willing to make gear fitting that criterea, and cheaply. (Remember, there won't be competition, so they will own the whole market, so they will sell thousands.)

QUOTE]Originally posted by jeide
Hi Bob. Are you Bob H. who spent a summer with us out in Colo? Myself and Rob Kelly have built some Killer Kaos's that weight under 5LBS with OS50's on them and they fly great . This would be a fun and cheap class of pattern to fly. The guy with the most skill would shine flying this plane . Jim [/QUOTE]

Hello Jim.
Yes, I am the Bob H. that hung out in Colorado that summer. It was a lot of fun too.

Your comment about "the most skill would shine" is the main reason for my original post. Has anybody really felt any better capturing a trophy with our current models as they did with a Kaos or such?

The others have good points about what could happen as people try to reach the pinnacle of the rules for any class. Simply put, money is spent. Some newcomers may not know any other way than to spend every dollar they can find to get to the top of the equipment list. But this system does not get you to the top unless you burn fuel.
I too, have caught myself wrapped up in tinkering with the latest Whiz-Bang gadgets only to realize I only burned half as much fuel that season. I would like to hear what Sam Turner and Dick Hansen would have to say about this. They seem to like the K.I.S.S. process.

I partially agree, however, I don't think special equipment or radio limitations is the way to go. Personally, I would rather see a class with either an engine limitation, or plane size, the last one would probably be the best.

We have 3 classes here in norway, one beginner class, where people fly what they have. We also have the standard F3A (top) class, where everyone use the best equipment. The 'problem' lies in the middle class, where people mostly use 2meters. The schedule isn't really that hard, flying it with some 90 size models would enable more pilots to fly, and decrease the need for expensive planes.

As competition in the lower classes here isn't really at the same fierce level as in other countries (ie. US), changes like these would make different results in the different countries. In places where the competition is hard, some would probably make high-tech components which obey the new standards.

When the word competition is raised, it matters little what limitation are imposed by the rules. Once you limit it to four channel radios and .40 sized airframes, people will go out and specialize their airplanes within the rules, leading to the most expensive conceivable versions of your "cost limited" legal entries.

What you have right now is a fairly loose limitation that allows up to a very nice sized airplane and everything below.

What I see occuring with the limitations you suggest is that every flyer interested in competition is not going to go and build a specialized "cheap" airplane.

In short, what I am getting at is that you will find much less participation than you think you will get. I say you would get 5% of your goal in competitors. It's nice bench speculation, but it's not going to fly.

On another note, the Senior Pattern Association is an established body that has a limitation imposed on the era, which compared to todays airplanes is much less expensive. Check it out.

The ONLY way to do it properly is to make it a spec class. Chose only 2 or 3 different airframes and 1 enigne.

For eg:

Tracer 40
Venus 46
Tai Ji 40
Ultra Sport 40
(or something similar)

TT .46

Now you have a cost effective class where pilot skill becomes the real difference. But alas these things only tend to work in club level type stuff.

The only place I have seen this work on a large scale was when I used to race boats years upon years ago. The basic starting class was 3.5cc OPC. Small boats only one real engine available and the best racing you've ever seen. A sight to behold seeing 6 of these rounding the last turn together.

Then again if enough people get on the bandwagon it might just work out okay. There are lots of these planes around so it would be easier to get some of the sport fliers involved.

If you limit sizes as everyone knows the money factor will still be there (see F1 car racing for proof). The only way to reduce the money factor is to specify airframes and engines.

Actually, there is a form of competition that sets limits so that skill is more of a factor....SPA.

Exactly!!!

So why would you want to change to rules of F3A.

Like I said before: Why can't the pilots meet the rules instead of the rules meeting the pilots.

Especially if it's based on a cost factor.

But the original question wasn't about pilot skill it was about cost.

SPA is great if you live in the southeastern portion of the U.S.. If you live anywhere else you are out of luck.

I agree about having SPA as a alternate for AMA pattern we are going to try SPA this season if there is enough people in each class we will fly SPA pattern if not we fly std ama pattern but if you are flying a legal SPA plane you get a 15% points bonus. were going to give it a try. Mark,

Gentlemen

If you need SPA help, please email me privately at [email protected]. I am SPA Secretary and will help any way I can. There are guys flying SPA in areas outside the southeast. Often, they allow current designs, but give a bonus to SPA approved planes.

Aerobatics is aerobatics. Budget minded Mini-mac screams for competitors with small, inexpensive airplanes to come out and fly. So, what's stopping folks from taking advantage of this?

Mark

I agree with don't change the rules to suit yourself but strive to be at the limit the rules, its getting cheaper and cheaper to fly F3A. You could compare it to IMAC and jets and get blown away with the expense.


What I see is you want to remove technology and in this way remove the expense of top-end pattern.

You may think that removing the computer radio would make it cheaper. The cost is not in the radio, any cheap computer radio would do, but in the servos, all digital/ core-less top of the line for both centers and speed, put this with the lith ion cells that some of these bigger planes nudging the 5kg limit need then the price goes up exponentially. You don't need to go this path though and still be competitive, The radio does not fly the plane, the pilot does. you could use the 4 channel radio, standard servos and nicad and still get the equivalent performance as long as you were skilled enough.

With the engines they will change to suit the rules, the price will still be there and the technology will soon replace the pump.

As anything that is at the top level, technology follows it and its great for the hobby, if the manufacturers were forced to return to past technology then the hobby wouldn't develop to the same extent it has in the last few years. just my 1 cent...

Quite a few interesting comments...and all valid.

I am a competiter and will compete to the limit of the rules in pattern. (to borrow a good line from Mike)

But I will always wonder why this area has gone from over a dozen contests per year down to only two. Maybe it is simply just more types of aerobatics to diversify the modeling world.