Hi,
I read more then once the following quote "nothing fly like 2 meter airplane..."
i am the owner of 90 size pattern airplane, and i wonder what is the real difference between 90 size to full 2 meter airplane ?

Thanks,

I've heard this too and am curious. I've got a Venus II (.90 size) and it's the best flying plane I could imagine, but people say 'if you think you're hooked now, wait 'till you fly a full 2m plane.'

They track better and not as affected by the wind lot of 2 meter designs out there I have a Focus that Ive been flying for about 3 years now, the Venus is a good airplane, also a 2 meter plane presents it self better fly one and see for your self

The 2-meter purpose built planes have the ability to be adjusted and trimmed in better than an ARF.

The wing loading and balance of the plane.... power to weight ratio and moments are set up to maximize its potential, not necessarily profit.

if you are looking to make the leap, look into the Insight or Pentathlon at www.insightrc.com

or

the Black Magic at www.customairframes.com

Chuck

A good example would be Formula 1 racing. There are other cars that are similar, but they are top of the line..purposely engineered for their one purpose and the 2 meter planes are the same. they change every few years slightly as the patterns change, but they are always at the top of the heap. Also, servo choices make a big difference. Usually when someone is flying a 2 meter plane they are also buying the top of the line servos. Sport digitals are good, but in way do they compare to the quality and precision of the best servos. I saw an example of a guy talking about a 2 meter plane in another thread and I dont remember which one, but after his plane was trimmed, they put a piece of 1" wide masking tape on one wing the plane was trimmed so solidly before that he was able to see that he needed to add opposite aileron to get the plane flying straight again. That is how tight the tolerances are on a well trimmed 2 meter plane...

Arch

What about a scaled down model such as kyosho osmose? Big one about really expensive,thirsty. Small one just as much fun, cheap?

comments

I actually have a sliver of experience with this one! I've got the Venus II and loved it so much that I decided to replace my .40 size plane with the Venus 40. I was flying the bigger plane, then switched to flying the little plane, and it's just a huge world of difference! Same plane, manufacturer, assembly process (only the tail moment on the smaller plane is not scaled down) but the big plane is just SO much more stable, handles turbulence better, etc. I think I've flown the small one like 3 days and 10 flights and now have it up for sale.

I can only begin to imagine what the difference between my $280 'pattern style sport plane' and a $1000+ full blown 2m pattern plane would be.

Buddy chord, anyone?

If I was closer, I'd let you play with my Black Magic V3 anytime. I'll let pretty much anyone take it around the sky for a few. Usually the same reaction though. Suddenly no one is impressed with my flying..they are sure it is the plane...and they are partially right. A really well trimmed plane makes pattern a lot more fun as it lets you concentrate on the maneuvers more instead of the plane. The smaller planes are great to go fly around with, but just because its the same plane smaller doesnt mean it'll fly as well. The Focus Sport is a GREAT flying plane, but it still is not near as competitive as its bigger brother the Focus II. It will fly the sequences and such, but in certain conditions, its always going to be at a disadvantage. It and the Venus II are great for what they were designed to do. They will get you hooked on pattern and fly the lower classes well, but as you progress eventually you will learn that your skills are catching up to the airframe, and that is a GREAT thing. That means you are progressing and getting better. I honestly think that way is much better than starting out with a 3500 dollar ship. Even if someone pics up a perfectly trimmed top of the line FAI ready plane, it doesnt mean it will benefit them in Sportsman. Most of the newer F3A designs really need you to be good with the throttle and rudder from the start, or they can actually hurt you in some ways. Smaller, and a little faster can be a good thing in the lower classes. A 10 1/4lb black magic vf3 requires you to wind correct a lot more than a smaller faster plane. The smaller plane will just cut through a crosswind as it doesnt have the side area, whereas the V3 and the other top F3A designs will get blown a little more if you arent careful. I really think the 90-120 size planes are the best for Sportsman. They are relatively cheap, MORE than competitive, and it lets you get your feet wet and decide if pattern is for you without the huge investment. Then when you are ready to make the leap you have an idea of how contests work and the basics of pattern, and can concentrate on learning the plane and getting more comfortable.

Arch

That is a true statement, and you will know when you fly one, if smaller airplanes would fly that well then there will be more in pattern contest, not F3A, but pattern, but there's not much unless it is an entry level.

Usually people who say "nothing flies ....." you know, is because have flown smaller planes and 2 meter, I Still have a Groovy 90A and had a Zen 120, and trust me, after flying the my 2M, they fly like crap, I do still love the way my Zen flew, but no comparisons.

Don't worry Arch, I AM close to him. He can fly my V2 this season (or maybe one of my VF-3's if I get them ready soon). I remember the first time I flew a 2-meter ship (a Focus 1). I was flying a 40-size super Kaos Jr. in Sporstman. I had to move up to Intermediate the followng year (I placed 2nd in a contest with 7 or 8 people) so I was looking at a used 2-meter plane. One of the guys let me fly their Focus. What a difference! I bought that airplane. The problem is, now I'm spoiled. Everything else flies like cr@p!

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs

Thanks for all answers !
To summaries it the 2x2 have the following advantages over the 90-120 size :

1) ability to adjust the wing and the stabilizer incidence
2) Better servo's are usually used
3) Better Power ratio

now all the above are accessories and i guess you can have them all on on 90 size airplane ..

what i am more interesting is whether the 2x2 airplanes have better aerodynamic characters that makes them fly better

good example will be Focus sport vs Focus 2x2

Also, keep in mind that regardless of the airplane's size, they must all fly through the same fluid (air). The drag imparted by the air on smaller aircraft becomes a larger percentage of its overall weight and thrust. Basically, (but not always) bigger flys better because the time constant gets slower. This is partially why larger aircraft can have higher wing loadings and still feel lighter in the air than a smaller one.

I'm sure that in order to have a 2meter feel, a smaller model must first be very light (lower wing loading and better power to weight). I'm sure Mike Hester will agree that it is not a trivial task when trying to create a really good, 90 size plane[:@].

However, fly what you got a lot, and you will get better.

-Mark

Larger flies better simply because you can't scale down an air molecule to give a smaller plane similar performance to a larger one.

Glad I found this thread. Another RCU member sent in on. I am ready to jump in. Looking to the Focus and YS FZ110. I know absolutely nothing about flyng this set up, and have been reading Newman's blog and build.
Anyone in south FL reading this, I would like to hook up. Stuart, Jupiter area.

Vince
Hobe Sound, FL [email protected]

hi Vince!

Well step one: Be at the Tangerine in Apopka Dec 7 weekend. Everybody you want to meet and everything you want to know in one fatal swoop. Welcome!

I answered in your original thread, but as it pertains to this one, I'll expand on it.

Mark Hunt nailed it...bigger flies better because the air is a constant. It's more about the stability in general and the overall presentation of the plane. Now you can make a LARGE plane in a smaller footprint to counteract a lot of this, but the downside is you need power, and lots of it. Thankfully the engine designers are pretty much keeping pace with the YS 110 and the OS 120. The plane has to be slick and draggy all at once and that's a tall order. You're looking for induced drag, not parasitic. But if you get it too draggy, it will be a PITA to power it enough in any kind of wind.

The Focus sport is about the best ground level entry plane you can get. It's inexpensive and on a relatively calm day flies a lot like it's big brother. But it won't fly like it's big brother in any sort of wind. And that's the catch. I have hardly seen a pattern contest that was calm. It happens and when it does, the flying is GLORIOUS! But generally speaking it's rare...especially in Florida. if you can swing a Focus 2 and an OS 140, that's the ultimate ticket to jump in with both feet. If you REALLY want to jump in, get a Focus 2 with a DZ170....and behold the most overpowered beast in pattern [8D]

As for why the big planes fly better and trying to describe it....you can only generalize, you have to feel it and see it for yourself. So get to Tangerine and you can fly my plane and see for yourself. Be there or be square!

-Mike

PS If you're coming we're flying BPA/SPA too so jump in there!

Mike,
I think you meant 'one fell swoop' as I hope it is not fatal to Vince !
Nothing is more powerful as a pattern 'sales pitch' than a pattern contest!
-Will B.

Flywilly, that's right. I flew at Apopka last year. Good info on the Focus II. I can get a Meridian from a friend of mine, he has two, offered me one, but I want to start out on a clean sheet of paper. Going to Miami this week, try to fly the Intruder's two sequence's on one tank. OS 61SF's in both. Have to practice throttle mgm't. I don't have any pattern types up here. I am in SPA Novice. Probably go with the F-II and YS170DZ to get started, unless there is another plane in that price range that is more suitable to a beginner.
Vince

Fell/fatal/fable/femme-fatale/whatever, you get the idea

-M

Vince,

The OS 1.60 is a nice setup as well. A lot cheaper than the YS setup also. Not to mention you can actually get them easily. I'm a YS guy and love mine, but there is definitely a learning curve and the OS 1.60 runs great and there are lots of people running it,

Arch

Thanks Arch. I just got off the phone with a guy in Miami that is helping me for my beginner pattern stages. He said the same thing you just told me. More simple to operate, and when I get ready, go with what is best for me. That may be the way to go.

I am going to the Tangerine. My reason to get into the bigger pattern, is there are more avenue's to fly these. SPA is kind of in the embryo stage for us in FL right now. We have been visiting clubs in the last year, recruiting new members, and it is a hard row to hoe, make take some time to get more SPA activity here.

Vince

cheaper to start with, and cheaper fuel. Also, there are quite a few guys who can help you get it running right. The OS 1.60 with the Perry pump setups seems like the way to go.

Arch

I was between the YS110 and the OS120 two stroke, and I went with the OS and I'm glad I did. I was told that the YS can be tricky to get setup and running right, and without any kind of guidance it would be a bit of a gamble.

What it boils down to, and also what I was told, is that us beginning pattern pilots need to be concentrating on flying planes and not tuning engines. There is plenty of time down the road for getting into fancier setups, but right now it's all about stick time.

The OS two stroke has been awesome - gobs of power, and yes, cheaper fuel (10% nitro is $35/gallon here, the high nitro fuel for the YS is probably $50).

I suggest getting the engine set up without the pump and the tank at the firewall, and once the engine is dialed in move the tank and install the pump. I didn't do it this way and struggled to get everything running right. Beginners need less variables, and this is the way to do it. I've since pulled the pump and am just about happy with the engine and will be putting the pump back in and the tank back to the CG (probably over the winter for first flight next season).

Keep it simple
And go BIG

Thanks for the OS Info. You guy's have done the homework, and I am learning here from your experience. Present project's attached, ready for new challenge. OS SF61's & Rossi here.

Vince

There is a lot on other threads about the set-up of 140 and 160 O.S. I have both, and the 140RX is VERY reliable and makes reasonable power. It is also probably one of the simplest motors I have run . . bolt it in, hook the fuel lines, and run it . . no need to touch the pump ever.

The 160FX makes more power and torque (from my back to back tests) and is also very reliable once set-up. Plug it all together and run it . . once tuned, this thing hardly needs the needle touched, and can fly TWO P09 schedules on a 20oz tank. Make sure you take the main needle OFF the engine and mount it on the firewall. The vibration from the engine seems to create bubbles in the fuel line. Not desirable. I also ended up adjusting the pump about 1/2 turn . . can't remember which way . .

I have set a throttle curve on both motors in an effort to get a more linear feel, and the 160FX produced the best result of the two. The power curve is more linear than the 140RX . . but still NOT what a YS would be.

Both these motors start easily. The 160FX needs the starter first flight of the day (and man, it's hard to crank over too . . need a good starter for this one). After that . . it usually starts on one back-flip (put the starter away ).

There's great set-up information for the 160FX on Bob Pastorello's site . . http://www.rcaerobats.net/OS160_Setup.htm I followed this set-up, including the Aeroslave Pipe, and it's faultless.

I use this set-up in a Composite ARF Integral, and there is no way I use full throttle on up-lines except for perhaps the windiest days . . it visably accelerates if I do

Cheers, JB

Geee . . they look awesome, Vince. Shame we don't have Classic Pattern in Australia [&o]

Cheers, JB