golfingguy27

Hey Guys,
I am thinking about a winter project. I am into IMAC/3D type flying but am interested in experimenting with some pattern flying. So I am looking at some planes designed for "artistic aerobatics" type flying that would be a good beginners pattern plane, yet still be able to do some 3D style flying to have some fun with. I am thinking about buying something that I could put a somewhat "unique" motor in. I would like to put the BME 90 (supertiger) gas engine in it so I could use the same gas as my IMAC planes instead of buying expensive glow fuel. So I am looking for something in the 65" wingspan and 8-9 pound range. I have found a few options like the Phoenix Accipiter which looks nice, but I can't find a US distributor for them. What planes should I look at? Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Todd

golfingguy27

Hhhmm.. I know this is kind of a strange question for a pattern forum.. Nobody has any suggestions yet? I just posted it this morning, but it already has 63 views with no replies. I would like to throw together a relatively small plane that I could just throw in my truck instead of my 35% IMAC plane, and if it could be fun for 3D as well as serve as a pattern plane to experiment, that would be great. By the way, I'm not looking for an all out crazy 3D machine.. just something that still has enough control surface to do some harriers, rolling harriers/circles etc. If I had to put a priority on it, I would choose a better pattern plane.

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

I think you're trying to find something that doesn't exist. Pattern doesn't have a criteria for 3D, and the airplanes are purpose built to fly precisely. There's a reason why there isn't something that size that's readily available, because they don't tend to fly all that well. My 2m pattern planes will hover, do rolling harriers, and other basic 3D maneuvers fine, but that's not what they're designed to do. I don't think you'll be happy with an airframe like you're looking for, should you happen to find one.

Sorry I can't be of some more help. Maybe if you're willing to change your criteria a little, you'd find more options, and likely be happier with what you get. There was an interest in artistic aerobatics back about 8 years ago that was basically precision 3D, but it never really caught on due to the lack of versatility with the airframes.

Good luck, and I hope you can find something, and perhaps give pattern a try!

golfingguy27

Well, maybe I need to elaborate on my criteria a little. Basically what I think I am looking for is just a pattern plane that will fly decently on the motor I have in mind, that happens to have control surfaces big enough to do some 3D if that makes sense. Now wether or not that is available I don't know. I have seen videos like this one.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwmG-...eature=related of the Phoenix Accipiter that show it doing more than enough 3D to make me happy. If it is a decdent pattern bird, I don't know. As I mentioned, I also haven't found a US distributor for them yet either. I think something like the Focus Sport would even fit the bill if I was to modify it and make the ailerons continue all the way to the root of the wing instead of stopping mid span. Does this all help clarify what I am looking for? Am I still looking for something I won't find?

Thanks,
Todd

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

How about one of QQ's Yaks? They are 3D machines, but I know at least the 69" Yak has been modified for better precision. It weighs 8.5lbs.
http://www.qqaircraft.com/planes.asp...&s_PLANE_CAT=b

Definitely not a 'pattern plane' though, and I don't know how competitive it would be against one.

Nickolas

90 class

- Hangar 9 Showtime

- Synergy 90 3D

- YT International Adrenaline 90

- Camodel Zafiro 90 3D

If you want to go for 2m there are plenty but a lot more expensive and most of them have to be imported from Europe. Some examples:

- ZN Majestic

- Lorenz High Society

- TS Composite Synergy 140 3D

- XTreme Composite OTOP 3D version

- PL Prod Fiesta

- Camodel Eclipse if not mistaken

If you want to go for 50cc:

- Chip Hyde Vision and Double Vision

- Camodel Galaxy

Rob Swire

My Feedback: (17)

A number of years ago there was quite a bit of interest in what you are talking about. Manufactures such as PL Prod and Modelbau (ger) produced kits like the Flashdance / Excellence that Somenzini campaingned for a while and the plane called the Rhapsody (shulman flew on electric) and many others. There are still some kits around - they are mostly composite and very $$. I have an Excellence by PL Prod that does all the things you say/want. As a matter of fact, there is a PL Prod Flashdance for sale in the RCU market. Guys name is Hambone (good guy). The aircraft were origionaly considered widebodies that would perform precision and 3d.

I will try and find the link to the Rhapsody etc. I believe PL Prod no longe make aircraft and are back in the porn business......sure do miss those models clinging onto those aircraft though!

-Rob

Nickolas

Oh forgot a very important in the 90-11o class.

New Sebart 110 Wind S the artistic aerobatic version, with T-Can and SFGs. This must be a great plane!!

majortom-RCU

My Feedback: (40)

The G90 glow is a decent engine in its class, but a gas conversion is not going to have the same power as glow. There are planes designed around the YS110 that would fill the bill (Showtime 90, Quest, Venus II), but I have to think the BME gas 90 would be a disappointment power-wise.

My latest artistic aerobatic toy is the Reactor, which I see is now out in a 50 cc size. If you put the Reactor on low rates, it would fly pattern maneuvers, maybe not with competition-level precision but close enough to get the feel of things.

IIRC Dick Hanson was very high on the Showtime 90 with Evolution/MVVS 26 cc gas power. I like the Showtime for breaking into pattern, and I believe Eric Henderson spoke well of it in his column. If you get the stock tuned short pipe I think you'd have all the power you might want. Muffled 26 cc ... maybe, but I would want the power boost of a tuned exhaust.

rcprecision

My Feedback: (6)

Pattern 3d aka Artistic Aerobatics

1) take one pattern design
2) add oversize ailerons, rudder and elevators
3) add plenty of horse power gas, glow or electric
4) optimize with lite components to keep weight to a minimum
5) stir and simmer in the workshop until done

wa-la you have [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ8neneUJc8]Video[/link]

dbacque

My Feedback: (3)

The CA Model Epsilon 90 might fit your bill.

golfingguy27

Thanks for all the input guys.. I just got home from a date.. WOO hoo!!! and am a little tired so I will probably do more research tomorrow, but here are a few reactions to the suggestions made so far.


1.) I want to keep this relativley inexpensive.
2.) I don't want to go 50cc gas because then it would be too heavy to be pattern legal.
3.) Supposedly the BME makes more power than a glow G90, although I haven't seen anything to confirm that yet.
4.) I looked at the Showtime 90, it's a nice looking plane for a decent price. I will have to read about it's pattern performance and the engine choices.


I will have to check some things out. I think this would be a fun plane to throw together. Something I can throw in a vehicle and go to the field last minute with as opposed to a 35% IMAC plane. Which is another reason I would like to keep it on the smaller side of things.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

There's a genesis 3d for sale in the pattern classified.

Chris

majortom-RCU

My Feedback: (40)

I like dbacque's suggestion of the Epsilon 90... as far as the airframe goes, at least. Powerplant, my jury is still out. I went to the Netbox site, see the Epsilon 90 ARF is reduced in price, and the website says it can be powered with a gas engine. They don't say what gas engine they would recommend, however. What else could it be other than the BME90? RCS140? Their video shows good 3D performance, but their engine choices as per the slide show were ASP120 and YS110FZ, nothing of the gas variety. So call Netbox, ask them what their gas engine recommendation is. And have they flown it? And is it competitive in that configuration? I'm sure it would fly with the BME90, but as to performance in either pattern or 3D, I'd want to see it before I believed it.

When I looked at the BME site, I didn't see them claiming their engine is equal to the glow version in power. If it were a supportable claim, I'd think they'd be making it, since it would be a first in the history of model engines, to my knowledge anyway.

The pattern community is full of guys who have given up looking for a gas power solution for a competition model. So far the only contender with any kind of track record is the ZDZ40 FAI, which has been flown with limited success, but has not generated any wave of enthusiasm. With pattern, power/weight is a major concern, and in that respect gas remains low man on the totem pole.

As to meeting weight limitations, in Pattern Basic there is no limitation other than the model being AMA legal. The 11 pounds/2M applies only at Intermediate and on up.

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

The The Showtime is a pretty good choice. It is a respectable Pattern performer given its smaller size and oversized controls. It's quite capable of 3D too. You'll want more than a .90 to power it though. The OS 120AX does very nicely in the Showtime.

wildnloose

i believe the Showtime 90 is discontinued...

golfingguy27

yeah.. I have noticed the same thing about the Showtime 90.. I'm sure if I really wanted one though, I could find somebody that still has one to sell. I'm looking into the Epsilon as we speak.. it looks like a good option. I need to decide on engine choices. I REALLY would like to stick with something gas if I can. I swore my days of nitro were over after my first day of flying gas! I think the BME 90 would be an interesting choice if I can find some sort of solid numbers on how heavy of a plane it could fly well.

wildnloose

For good performance, don't even think about a 90 sized engine (gas or glo) in a 90 sized plane for pattern or 3d. You will need at least a ys 110/saito 125/os 120ax. Some have even put the st g2300/ys 140/saito 180/os 160 in a plane this size...

I know it does not do you any good, but the plane you want is my Excelleron. its a pattern ship with 3d control surfaces. But, like others have already stated, there are better planes that can fly pattern, there are better planes that can 3d; but this plane is (imo) the best at doing both (at least in this size). But its discontinued as well...[]

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

I don't fly mine ever since I found a new home for my 120AX. It has a cracked canopy (dropped it). If interested, let me know and we can talk.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

How about the Fliton Inspire 60.. Cheap plane to get into..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tVlxKji0Sc

Chris

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

This one might work well too. This is the only place I have seen it for sale in America: http://www.hobby-estore.com/power-3d...plane-kit.html It is a .60-size plane so you should be OK with the BME 90.

It says it has a semi-symmetrical airfoil, but that is incorrect. It is also called the Acacia, and I believe it was developed for Fliton. There is a video here: http://www.probuild-uk.co.uk/product...3&subCatID=234

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

Oh sorry, that is a 1.10-size plane again. Sorry! Take a look at the Inspire 60, that would be about the right size. This plane might work as well: http://www.kmp.ca/product_info.php?c...aaa580c666a08f

If you have not yet purchased the BME engine you might want to rethink your options a bit.

golfingguy27

no, I haven't bought the BME yet.. I am just starting to toy with ideas. I would definately like to put together a smaller plane that I can have some fun with, without the hassles of a big IMAC plane. Other than that, I haven't made to many decisions. I would really like to keep it gas if I can though.. I don't want to go back to glow fuel. I tried looking up the rcs 140 and mvvs engines. The RCS is discontinued and I can't find info on the MVVS, are they gone as well? What other small gassers are out there? I posted the same question in the engines forum.

Thanks,
Todd

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

The RCS 140 weighs about the same as a 50cc engine, and the MVVS engines are very good. They are sold in the US by Horizon Hobbies as the Evolution engines.

golfingguy27

oh cool... I didn't realize the Evolution motors were MVVS's.. I was looking at them this afternoon. May end up with an Evo 26 then!