Maybe at some point, a bullet point list of the best setups for the Syssa can be compiled in one place based on the various setups and uses of the engine and what type of flying is done.

. There is a ton of really uefull info in this thread that may be able to be put together.

However, with the incredible amount of input flowing in on a daily basis on this incredible engine, that may be something to look to do down the road.

It is great to read all the exciting and positive e-mails on Todd's engine and I knows he really appreciates all the feedback and input on his engine.

What a terrific success story.

SAP-180HP pattern K.I.S.S. cookbook


Lou K, this is a good suggestion.

I will make this post a repository for info related to the KISS set-up using standard pump gas, APC props and readily available components for an off-the-shelf powerplant for pattern that anybody can copy and get excellent results. I will occasionally update, edit, add links, etc.

1) [link=http://www.syssaaircraft.com/cart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=11]SAP-180HP engine[/link], 89 octane pump gas (10% ethanol), [link=http://www.syntheticoildistributor.com/amsoil_2cycle_oil.html]AMSoil Saber Pro[/link] 85:1 (after break-in with dino oil)

2) [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXZ646&P=7]Macs tuned pipe header for OS 1.40RX[/link], available from Tower Hobbies

3) [link=http://www.escomposites.com/petrol.htm]ES 30G tuned pipe[/link]from escomposites.com

4) [link=http://www.siliconehose.com/commerce/ccp11370-870id4-ply-silicone-saej20-compliantgl-c40-087.htm]Silicone turbo hose[/link] from siliconehose.com, 0.870" ID, rated SAE J20 R1, for the coupler, and also Matt (MTK) has had great success with his [link=http://www.mcmaster.com/#5033k43/=7gklvt]Teflon tube coupler[/link] material from McMaster-Carr. Use standard nylon zip ties to secure the silicone turbo hose, and [link=http://www.mcmaster.com/#spring-hose-clamps/=7gloj1]wide-band spring hose clamps[/link] (Part # 7329K15) for securing the Teflon tube.

5) Use a [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9237216/anchors_9687199/mpage_31/key_/anchor/tm.htm#9687199]1-inch long piece of 0.875" OD aluminum tube[/link] as a spacer between the header and the pipe to minimize direct exposure of the turbo hose to exhaust gases

6) Place [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9694367]3 or 4 buttonhead screws[/link] near the end of the header and the ES pipe to prevent the hose from sliding off. A couple of zip ties on each end will secure it solidly.

7) The engine can be hard mounted, but for pattern you will probably want to use a [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9393393]soft 'isolator' mount[/link], making your own as described in [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6285026/tm.htm]this thread[/link] by MTK. I'm fairly certain that Merle Hyde would be happy to make a soft mount, using the stand-off bolt template supplied with the engine.

8) [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9607516]Nose ring[/link] and [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9599410]Static nipple[/link] on the carb ambient pressure reference plate. Eliminates inconsistent engine runs caused by pressure changes inside the cowl.

9) [link=http://www.apcprop.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LP15512W]APC 15.5x12W prop[/link] (break-in with something with less pitch). I have tried a bunch of props and there is something magical about this prop with this set-up. The standard APC 16x12 pattern is almost as good, and an acceptable substitue if you can't get the 15.5x12W, which I got from Gravesrc.com

Matt (MTK) is working on some other fuel blends/timing/custom-made prop combinations, but the recipe presented above is proving to be a superb set-up that will work very well for anyone with a pattern-legal (sub 5kg) airframe. Matt is also using a Teflon PTFE exhaust coupler to test its durability and longevity.

Also recommended (to keep things light) is a [link=http://www.syssaaircraft.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=35&idcategory=11]Syssa (Tech-Aero) Ultra IBEC[/link] , which eliminates the need for a separate igntion battery and switch, saving about 5 ounces of weight (HUGE!), as well as optical kill switch, all controlled from the Tx. I am also using a [link=http://www.tech-aero.net/plr5-i]Tech-Aero Designs switch/regulator[/link] for the Rx, with a Fromeco Li-Ion 2600 mah, but with the proliferation of LiFe batteries one could use one of these with no regulator. I like the Tech-Aero reg because it has a fail-on switch, so even with a LiFe I might use the Tech-Aero switch/reg for this feature alone.

It seems pretty simple now, but it took a lot of help from Matt, Ed and a few other guys here (including our man from The Land Down Under, Rendegade) to digest, test, distill and finally sort out all of this information to end up with a bulletproof combination.

It's good to see you guys doing this. Experimenting is fun for some of us but most guys just want to buy the "right stuff" the first time and have a working system without too much fuss. This is how the OS 160 got to be popular: succesful, easy to duplicate setups were documented by a few key individuals (Bob Pastorello, Jon Lowe, etc.). I'm sure the work that you guys are doing will help get people going with Todd's engine too. Maybe this year there will be a competitive gas Pattern plane at the Nat's. I don't think that's happened yet.

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

Bob, thanks for the great info, happy flying!!

Lou K

Hey All,
Finally got to fly the Syssa last night after sorting out some ignition problems. A little tough to gleen too much as we were flying in a 25 mph wind. Using a homemade soft mount with no nose ring, 18.1x10 APC on ES30G pipe and 87 oct with B&S dino oil. Seems to pull better than my OS160s. The motor unloads more in the air.
two things noted though....1)... Really noisy... I think I over did it on the outside rubber band.on the mount Too heavy a rubber and also a lot of intake noise.

2) A little hesitant in the midrange Only have about a half a gallon thru it... I think this improves by itself but I may need to play the needles.

Your thoughts and guidance are appreciated.

Rick

Sorry... Duplicate Post

18.1X10 on MTK's plane was a bit loud too for my liking. He tried a 17X12 as well, which I thought was much quieter and pleasing to my ears. I am one of those who is sensitive to noise and can usually hear a bad bearing a mile away<g>.

Also got to hear the 18.1X10 on a YS 170 CDI today which I thought was quite acceptable. Looks like the 18.1X10 is not the answer for the Syssa.

Rick, don't worry... for this engine to really hit its stride it takes about 3-4 gallons through it.

The 18.1x10 is significantly noisier than anything with a 12 pitch. But it's good for break-in, or even a 17x10 such as Ed Alt mentioned a while back. More RPM's for break-in is better.

Don't overlook airframe noise. A loose canopy or other vibrating components can make a lot more noise than you might think. Look critically at everything between the spinner and rudder to find all vibration sources, even between wheels and axles. A little donut of silicone or tygon tube between the hubs and wheel collars can quiet them down a lot.

What are your needle settings now?

I agree with Joe that the 18.1x10 is a bit loud on the SAP180/ES30G pipe combo. I'll explain with back to back runs yesterday and today.

Yesterday I ran one of my hybrid props which a wood/carbon composite. This prop was exteremely quiet, on the ground and air. Frank Imbriaco was at the field and he commented to me how quiet it was. The prop is not quite there yet but I'm working on it....just a little too much for the engine on extended vertical (1500 ft), right now. Yeah I know, we don't fly 1500 ft verticals in pattern. To me, the power must be strong throughout the envelope so i have to test it to extremes. It is a wide blade configuration so that has quite a bit to do with the quietness as Bob has found out with his 15.5x12

Then I switched to the 17x12 and noise increased (surprise). The 17x12 wasn't what you call noisy, but it was noisier than the hybrid. The 17x12 seems to work well on my engine/plane so it's a good prop for higher speed

This afternoon I flew the 18.1x10 apc and the noise difference was considerable between it and the hybrid...I'd put it at around +2-3dB from where the hybrid was. Not sure if we talking 91-92 versus 88-89 but I would guess around there. It was also noisier than the 17x12. BUT, the 18.1x10/SAP is quieter than some glow set-ups I've heard in pattern.

Prop carving isn't for everyone, I totally get that..... We have off the shelf options though, so one can get in the air immediately

The 17x10 with the stock muffler works nicely for the first few tanks during break in. I don't think it would be enough load if running on a pipe. I think I ran almost a gallon through it and then switched to a 17x12 (still just on the stock muffler). It should be getting into service in my other Prestige with the ES pipe in a couple of weeks time.

OK, I forgot you were using the stock muffler.

In the immortal words of Emily Latella, "Never mind."

Well, the 17x10 would work just fine on a pipe, it would just be noisy.

I'm pretty sure that I hear airframe. My mount isn't getting it. I have a really heavy band on it so as not to have to run a nose ring.
I do have other props from a 16x12 up. I'll try something with a little less load.

Needles are H 2 1/4 and L 1 5/8.

Thanks for the help,
Rick

I did 3 flights yesterday with Anthony coaching, each flight 2 times through Intermediate. Tomorrow he can give you his impressions of the 15.5x12W.

I hate like heck that I can't be there.[&o]

Exactly where mine were at that stage of break-in!

Now I'm around 2 even and 1-3/8, maybe a skosh less on both.

Rick, you mentioned intake noise...don't overlook the fact that the cowling on your test airplane has a lot of extra holes in it from previous exhaust configurations. That might let more noise out, and even make some noise on its own.

Hmmm....smaller diameter prop with more pitch? That sounds familiar, doesn't it? If you need some props I can dig through my prop drawer for you and bring some next thursday.

Thanks Guys... I have props. 3 blade repitched to 10 may be an option. I have the spinners Scott. 16.5x12... 16x12 ,17x10 in various widths and all the 18s. Its time to play!


RC
Scott,
All those holes are for cooling. LOL

Rick,

Why would you run a 3-blade? Three blades were nice a few years ago for controlling speed, but from a performance stand point they are much less efficient. You will always get better performance out of a 2 blade.

Arch

Today was a real sanity check for the SAP. It was referencing against glow engines (1 2 stroke and 1 4 stroke...the other 7 or 8 were electric). I went to the first contest with this comination...SAP/ES30G turning a cut down wood carbon hybrid prop. I didn't try the 17x12.....

Bottom line, engine and the cut down version of this prop was noisier than I had observed in earlier runs. My set-up is not quite where I want yet.

The dominant noise maker sounded like the flapper intake valve to me. Curious to know if a rubber lining on this valve could reduce the noise. I will discuss this with Todd as soon as I have the opportunity.

Nevertheless, the sound of the SAP gas engine was totally unique out there...completely different than anything else flying

Is that sound proofing material I see in the cowls of the big IMAC birds. I got a glimse in a couple of planes as they were taking off at a contest I was attending as a spectator. I really haven't even thought about since then.

Probably ducting to direct airflow around the cylinder fins.

Matt,

Sorry my last-minute work situation reared its ugly head. I was looking forward to flying (even in the howling wind!) and to have you try a couple of the props I have.

Do you plan to be in Conyngham, PA next weekend? I am working every day straight thru next Thursday to make sure there is no chance work will interfere with plans.

Can't wait to see your set-up. How is the Teflon coupler holding up?

Bob,

Let me answer the last first: the teflon is holding up to the chemical and heat exposure very well. In fact it is holding up mechanically also, to the pipe and header with virtually no leaking to speak of. The button head screws and the wire ties I am using are doing a very good job. I lost my pipe retainer o'ring last week during a flight and did not lose the pipe.

I doubt I will make any contests until Pocono. If I do, it will be for one day only

Ed and I adjusted the throttle curve to something more workable today. The curve in the TX (the one I had been flying which I didn't check until today) was backwards.
I richened the HS and LS needles some more and it looked like I got most of the sag at mid throttle out of it. Low end is slightly rich but high end is just right. The throttle curve needs a little more tweeking and I think it will be good to go. The engine is very close to being fully broken in now with 24 tanks of about 10-12 ozs each through it.

The prop is cut down 18x12 hybrid, cut down to 17 3/8 X 12. At the last of the day I did a couple really extended vertical checks, rolling for 1000 feet then doing a couple snaps after that, all on the vertical up line, ending it at around 1500 feet. Great authority through out all of that....best yet set-up I've come up with

Archie,

The 3 Blade may find a place again in the SAP180HP set-ups. Noise control will become the key driver until we sort the intake baffling situation out. I am working on a few things right now trying to figure out how to tame the carb noise. In this engine it isn't just carb intake you have to address but also the reed flappers slapping the intake case. That is the main thing I hear when i am flying. The exhaust and prop are the other two main things. A 3 blade would geratly reduce the prop noise signature.

Other than a very early run with a 15.75X11 3 Bld that Ed and I ran at Todd Syssa's shop, I have not run any others. The engine has enough power to run the 15.75 prop in stock pitch so it is priobably worthwhile to run it some with the 3 bld to find out, inefficiency notwitstanding